Ask them to use a time out instead of a squirt bottle. It sounds like the behavior mostly happens there where it is likely he is very excited during play. Time outs sound like a better solution.

I'll suggest putting him in time out for a bit to the owner when I see her next. No, she didn't really specify what they were doing, she just said Sagan was barking incessantly in their face. :-/

Okay, I told the owners this morning about giving him time outs, and much to my surprise, she told me that they already did! I dropped him off today to see how well he would do. I come back about two hours earlier than I usually do and shockingly, he isn't a wild beast and isn't barking up a storm when I see him. The owner tells me that they did multiple time outs as opposed to the one yesterday and he "was doing better" today.

That's interesting, @tatonka. Sagan developed his howl when he was a wee pup due to hearing an ambulance rushing down our street. Ever since then, he howls whenever he hears loud sirens or when he's whining. He replaced his whining with howling because he realized that whining got him no where, so he attempts to do different noises to try and get our attention. XP

I find my guy barks, as in annoying high pitched barks, not play noises, when another dog that he wants to play with doesn't want to interact, but is a little too scary to bully (via nipping his ass) into interaction. So typically it goes like this:

sniff sniff
Shiba does some play signalling
other dog just looks away
Shiba tries an exploratory whine or other noise, or maybe an arm slap
other dog gives him a warning
Shiba goes into play bow, or down, and barks.. many times over..
other dog keeps ignoring him
at this point the only solution is to find him something else to do.

On the other hand if the other dog is willing to interact and play fight boisterously, there are only nice play noises.

Personally, I would wait, BUT, if issues arise with other neutered males at daycare it might be necessary. At the dog park that we frequent it seems that neutered males have problems with intact males.

You might need to fix him earlier than you want to so not to jeapordize his daycare.

I agree did she specify what your dog was doing?

Thanks guys for the fast replies!

The owner didn't specify, but just recommended it to me. I'll ask when I come back next week what they're observing.

The stranger exam is basically the owners at the daycare who physically touch his ears, paws, collar, among other things that may create a reaction. Dogs who don't pass the exam are declined from daycare and can try again in a month.

I think I'll wait it out. I don't take him too often, but enough that I'd like to eventually come back.

Nah, I'm with you, I want to wait until he's just a little bit older (9-10 months old) to neuter him. Sagan has only humped ... one dog that I've seen at a dog park, and it was a male who was ignoring him, heh. He definitely marks, but never indoors. I dunno. He isn't acting so bad that I need to neuter right now, but soon, for sure.

Like I said previously, I'll just take him out of daycare for a month or two until he's neutered at the desired time. And I'm also curious what he did (or didn't do) for her to bring it up. I'll ask next week!

That feeling when you're told that your dog is way too rough with others at daycare and he was forced to be in a crate for 30 minutes to "cool down."




I asked what exactly happened and she said Sagan was "chicken-legging" (she described it as Sagan being too nippy, and purposely nipping the hindquarters of a dog's leg to get him riled up) and the other dog didn't like it. Apparently this particular dog was also afraid of him, but I couldn't help but wonder why they kept Sagan in the same section if he was? It's unfortunate because I really like this particular daycare establishment, but it seems he's been having issues here and there. :-/

@Rikka....thats what @Tatonka does to Bootz!

Bootz usually try to sit on his face though to stop the nipping. lol.

My dogs always go for the rear legs when playing. That's silly if they think that is too rough.

@Rikka, you live in Washington right?

Ok. Some of the centers are not familiar with the breed here still.

That sucks. All my dogs (all NK of course) go for the rear legs in play. The Kai does it most of all, and it is all play. They also all do the "bite the back of the neck" thing, which can get out of hand (esp. with the female Shiba) but again, it's play.

Puzzling.

I will say with my experience in daycare, some dogs find that very annoying. Keep in mind they are with multiple strange dogs, and sometimes it can turn into giant barking everybody nipping one dog session. I've also seen a retriever do it to an older dog once, and the normally docile dog turned around and shreaded his ear. Its just not behavior I ever allowed in daycare unless both dogs were enjoying themselves. Usually you remove the intiator if they don't let up.

I don't think its a bad punishment, and sometimes when it came to the shibas, they would do that because they wanted space (the older they got, the more intolorant they got of daycare, and if they got annoyed they would either get snippy/jerky, or bully dogs). I think the leg nipping is just not something most dogs tolorate, especially if you can have dogs with possible joint issues. Kenshin for example is not allowed to do it to zora because of her bad hips, but he knows its ok with his friend down the block.

"nipping the hindquarters of a dog's leg"

Saya does the same with Bella she either play bows, barks, and make a growly barky noise to get Bella to play or she bites her legs. I don't think she bites hard just hey you chase me or wrestle or I bite your legs.. haha

@rikka
I can understand your frustration. Something like this is exactly why I refused to even consider putting Zim in the small dog daycare in town or in any other daycare that specifically mentioned size in determining play groups. Every time I'd seen him try to play with another small dog, he'd scared the crap out of them (although daycare has actually made his overly enthused scary-to-small-dog behavior go away now!), so I knew I wanted him with big dogs. I definitely think there are more important things than size in determining playmates.

Anyway, I'm sorry you're having this problem and I would definitely suggest finding a daycare that's dealt with a Shiba before, if you can. Our daycare has another Shiba that comes in too, apparently one of their first daycare clients, and I definitely feel like it helps them with Zim. I never hear anything bad about Zim from them (the owner is in love with him, in fact, and he with her) even though I know he can be a really rough player and impatient with dogs that don't respect when he's decided it's naptime (you know, normal Shiba stuff).

Good luck with finding another daycare. I know it doesn't make the search any easier, but it sounds like this one was more of a sow's ear than the silk purse it first appeared to be.

Good luck finding another daycare. I had a similar experience.

We were trying to socialize Niktia and I finally found a place with socialization classes for dogs of all ages since she was 2 at the time and had been attacked by another dog before we got her I wanted to try to get her to a class. I found a place that was over an hour away but liked that they used positive reinforcement most trainers in my area still use choke collars. I talked to the trainer for about a half an hour on the phone and she was willing to work with Nikita and thought the best time would be doggie play time when the owners stay with their dogs so I could learn to read her body language better. The trainer was really good with her and teaching me how to read her body language we went for 5 weeks 1 day a week. On week 5 someone brought in a little terrier she had been the smallest there for the previous weeks so I was keeping her away per the trainer till we could do a meet and greet with the trainer to help (she was busy with a lab that was bulling everyone out of the pool). The terriers owner had been told to stay in the pool side but decided not to listen and brought her dog over and set it down. Nikita took off after it by the time I got to her she had the poor little thing pinned with her paw but did not have her mouth on it. My mom has a yorkie terrier mix that she plays with at my moms house and she has done the same to her not sure why she tries to do that but it is only when we first get there and they play ok but we don't let them play long because the yorkie is older and can only handle about 15-20 min at a time. Their were no puncture wounds and they took the the dog to the vet and it was fine. The trainer asked me to skip a week (she would be off) and come back, saying it was not our fault the lady who was in working on her training certificate said Nikita was not aggressive while doing it and seemed to be playing since she had saw what happen and the trainer had not. Nikita had actually played with the labs and play bowed to the grayhounds instead of staying right next to me that day so she was making progress.

When we returned the owner was there and not the trainer. She looked at Nikita and said "why would you bring a shiba to doggie play time no shiba likes to play with other types of dogs? My husband raises (shows,breeds) Basenjis and I would never bring one to play time." She said this while Nikita is playing with her lab friend. We were asked to leave and not come back, with her comment I would not have gone back anyway.
I found a rescue that is willing to let her come over and work on socialization when they have bigger dogs and since the head of the rescue is a behavioralist I feel comfortable, we start sessions in the spring (I am due to have a baby in the next few weeks and I just found her a month ago so we are waiting so I don't have to take the baby too).
She loves to try to get Toby to play by play bowing and barking or nipping at his back legs but he refuses. It has even got to the point if he is carrying his stuffed animal around she will nicely try to grab the stuffed tail and pull but he releases it immediately and it falls to the ground since she leaves it there I am pretty sure she is just trying to play and not take it from him. I know she loved the last few times we went because she would be wagging her tail when we got off the highway. The only people I know that don't have 5lb dogs are our neighbors who breed English Mastiffs and they won't even let there son play with my boys because my kids are to rough with him (there son is 13 mine are 9,8,6,4) when he comes over, so I doubt they would allow Nikita over.

Hope you can find some where that is willing to work with Sagan and follow what you want for him.

tobysmom said:

When we returned the owner was there and not the trainer. She looked at Nikita and said "why would you bring a shiba to doggie play time no shiba likes to play with other types of dogs? My husband raises (shows,breeds) Basenjis and I would never bring one to play time." She said this while Nikita is playing with her lab friend. We were asked to leave and not come back, with her comment I would not have gone back anyway.

Wow, that woman is an idiot. Hachiko LOVES playing with other dogs.

@tobysmom - Wow, crazy. To be honest, it is true that some Shibas can become dog intolerant after they turn a certain age, but it's just a generalization; obviously not ALL Shibas don't like playing with others. Thanks for sharing your story though, and that's marvelous you're working with her socialization. I hope it's going well for you!

And yes, Sagan also loves the company of other dogs. He's most happy at a dog park, I find. Super excited, lovable, and plays well in groups. He obviously does better with dogs who are bigger, but that doesn't mean he won't attempt to play with those who are smaller, too.

@littlebear - Thanks! I hope to find one soon, too. I feel bad for him because he was getting disciplined at daycare for actions that were actually quite normal for his breed... Earlier in this thread, I wrote that he was put in a crate for "chicken-legging" (their words, not mine, haha!)

@Rikka my two poor dogs would never be allowed out of a crate if "chicken-legging" calls for time outs ... at home my two dogs if they are not trying for the World Wrestling Smack Down via mouth wrestling they are going after each others back legs.

I don't use daycare a lot, but I was very fortunate to find a day care center that while they start segregation by size they don't hold to it if they clearly see a smaller dog better fits with the bigger dogs, which in Bear's case is very true. Bear is typically bored by most small dogs other than the real high energy runners.

@Rikka that's b.s. Tatonka spends 50% of his days in daycare with big dogs. I definitely think something is wrong with the folks at your daycare.

That being said I have a few problems with my daycare joint (even though it's next to perfect) and it really is $500 gone per month for me..

@Rikka, he doesn't even notice how much money disappears until i mentioned it to him lol!

@Tatonka...get a house near us ;) then i can take Tatonka. Woot woot!

tatonka said:

Problem #2: Tatonka is a finicky eater. I like to know how much he's eating or not eating. But depending on the folks working there, the uneaten food is either left in the container or totally washed out. It's hard to monitor your dog's food intake if stuff just gets washed out.. I think they do it out of politeness, but I'd rather just get the unfiltered data on my dog.

Problem #3: Tatonka can be a bully sometimes. Sometimes he does make some little dogs hate him because he hates to lose. So this will result in them putting him with the big dogs. I'd like to know this has happened but sometimes I'll get the answer "oh, he really likes the big dogs". Again, this is done out of politeness but I'd rather just get the data on what might be going on..

Disclaimer: I'm an extremely finicky/annoying owner and the daycare I go to is really, really good. My 3 points make it sound bad, but it's pretty rare to find a place this good.

@Bootz :P

I don't use daycare regularly and I have only boarded my one dog one overnight, but I am very comfortable with the place I chose. Like @Tatonka though, I found their desire to be polite and positive did not fully meet what I wanted.

Like @Tatonka I am a little finicky/annoying about leaving my dog. I wanted not only to understand his eating, I wanted to understand his pooing. I didn't get the type of raw data on these items I really would have desired even though at the end of the day the world didn't end because of it. I also had requested he not be put in day care the 2nd day of his overnight because I wanted him resting (he had agility training the next day), but they ended up putting him in daycare that day even though they didn't plan to charge me for it. So sometimes the good places trying to be nice, polite, and make things easier end up making them seem bad even though their not.

@Rikka good luck on finding a new daycare for Sagan. There are a couple of doggie daycare places closer to our house, but we were not impress with their establishment or they don't really have a lot of experiences with shibas. Nowadays we drive a little further to take Sam to a daycare that has way more experiences with shibas. I am glad to know that Sam is always happy to be there!