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Pearl bit a dog at the off leash park
  • PearlPearl
    Posts: 66
    Post edited by sunyata at 2013-06-06 10:11:43
  • You may want to just read up on some of the resource guarding threads on here and work that into his training at home. Try making them trade the ball/toy for a tasty treat. If you have a friends dog that you trust to get along well with Pearl maybe try working on resource guarding with just your friend and their dog in a more controlled situation then a big park. The only time I have ever had to muzzle Ryu was at the vet when we had to have the eye stain test done. He hated it and the muzzle just made him more agitated (worked with him at home to learn to just sit still if I gently put my hands around his mouth). Other dog park patrons may also get nervous if they see a dog with a muzzle.
    Post edited by RyuDragon at 2012-11-10 11:53:16
  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 3495
    I agree with Ryu. Muzzles don't help. Just makes the dog more temperamental and other dog owners worried.
  • PearlPearl
    Posts: 66
    Really? Wow. I'm hoping someone has a muzzle success story somewhere. I'm pretty much done with off leash parks without it. This would pretty much end almost any socialization the dog gets, I would assume frustrated socialization where she realizes that she can play without being mouthy or picking up balls would be better than isolation.

    Muzzles and clickers are never used as a training aid?
  • Post edited by shibamistress at 2012-11-10 13:32:59
  • Post edited by curlytails at 2012-11-10 14:05:53
  • AWE46M3AWE46M3
    Posts: 357
    Sorry I can't add much value here but I always find it interesting when people say balls/toys should not even be in a dog park. Every dog park I have been to has always had tennis balls there. I'm not sure if people bring them and leave them or if they're provided by the city/county. I can't think of a single dog park I've been to that didn't have a bunch of tennis balls just laying around.

    I guess that may further reinforce shibamistress' point about not going if the environment is unpredictable. I (fortunately) have not had to deal with resource guarding - but I hope you're able to find a positive solution to your problem.
  • RikkaRikka
    Posts: 1501
    Post edited by Rikka at 2012-11-10 14:25:13
  • A regular at our dog park uses a basket muzzle for his dog. It is the most comfortable. The dog does not need it because of the possibility of biting though, it is because the dog will eat sticks and other things and get sick. I have to say that I see a lot of people get nervous seeing the muzzle and leave. I don't think that a muzzle is a good idea for your situation. It will probably make your dog more anxious and the other dogs will pick up on this. The other dogs will not be muzzled and might react/bite. Since your dog would be muzzled, this will leave your dog defenseless and in a potentially dangerous situation.
  • kumaDUDEkumaDUDE
    Posts: 1259
    No input on the muzzle I'm sorry, and I am sorry to hear what happened to you at the park.
    Main reasons I veer away from my dog parks are just the same reasons and then some. Bad owners and anti social dogs, I do have to admit I'm one of the people that play w my dogs with a tennis ball or frisbee (but only if someone else is in there already playing)
    Now I go to a enclosed basketball court and let Kuma run wild and play, some other dog owners join me so their dogs can socialize a bit. Seems much easier to manage than a dog park.
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
  • I am a pro dog park person myself. I have been very lucky that there is a great group of regulars that are responsible owners that attend my dog park. The park also has a number of criteria for dogs to be able to join
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3664
  • If you're working on resource guarding please do watch out for any hint that your dog considers you a resource. Our younger pup occasionally slips into this and though I hate to admit it, that's mostly when our two get into a fight since we're not as meticulous with that as we are with treats. The fight (imo) can also be much worse if the owner is the resource being guarded.
    Post edited by violet_in_seville at 2012-11-11 09:01:30
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    There is great advice in this thread. I can't add much other than in this situation I would totally disagree with a muzzle being used. I would get with a positive behavioral trainer and work on the resource guarding issue.

    I believe in dog parks, but the ones we go to luckily have always been 95% positive and the issues are not from Bear so only in a few occasions have I felt the need to move to a different area to avoid owners who I do not believe properly and actively were teaching their dog polite dog interaction manners.

    So I wouldn't give up on dog parks, but before going back work on the resource guarding issue in positive settings gradually where he can succeed and work up to the dog park. Balance distance, duration, and difficulty as you train.
  • PearlPearl
    Posts: 66
    Thanks to all of you for responding. I really appreciate the discussion, I've taken what we've discussed here and combined that with her behaviorists advice and I'll be focusing on resource guarding and controlled environment play dates. (Un)Fortunately, we live right next door to the off-leash park at least I can sneak in there at night to let her run her Shiba 500 and stretch her legs.

    The new tool I'll be using will be an e-collar, and I feel she'll pick up on the concept quickly because we've worked with the clicker since she was a pup.

    So no muzzle. I'll just have to work a bit harder to control the environment and situation. If she can get over her food psychosis, she can get over resource guarding, I just need a new approach.

    I also appreciate the discussion on the balls and toys at dog parks. It feels like I curse people who bring balls to dog parks now (I call them the ball people to myself.) but my dogs handicap isn't their fault. It sucks for me, and I secretly hate them for it, but there is no way you can say they should change their play because my dog isn't disciplined enough. I really wish I could though, the ball wasn't even in the park, a woman walked by and threw it in!!

    I also disagree with peanuts being banned from schools, so maybe this is some karmic perspective for me.

    Thanks guys, I would have went crazy this morning if I didn't have some sympathetic ears.
  • PearlPearl
    Posts: 66
    I'll also do as much positive training as I can, but she knows what to do in controlled situations. Its when balls and dogs start flying that she goes AWOL.
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3664
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4786
  • I agree with @curlytails and @Calia on shock collars and aversive training methods in general. I would work on positive reinforcement training methods. There is a lot of info on here on how to work on resource guarding in a positive way (ex. using treats to trade a dog for the ball/toy). Try using the advanced search.
  • PearlPearl
    Posts: 66
    whoawhoawhoa.. okay. Thanks for your input. It'll talk it out and we'll come up with a new plan. Thanks for the heads up. so e-collar is worse than muzzle, which is worse than avoiding the park entirely. The ideal solution would be to train the dog using positive methods noted in the above links.

    Very helpful indeed.
  • JuniJuni
    Posts: 1269
    I'll bring back the conversation to the dog park. You like the dog park because Pearl gets to run around and socialize with dogs? Someone suggested earlier that you find some dogs she gets on well with and have play dates with them. I think that is a great idea. And if you worry about her exercise you might have to come up with some new ideas.
    Juni stopped liking other dogs at around 1 year, she would find one sometimes that she played well with but the rest she would get snippy with. I don't think dog parks are that much fun for her when she constantly needs to be on guard. There's one we sometimes go to because it is huge so it is easy to avoid other dogs and we can play chase together.
    Juni is very playful at doggy day care so I think she gets all the dog interaction she needs there. I think meeting new dogs are just stressful for her, here she knows the others, they don't all get along but there's always someone who's up for some playing and the staff supervise and can intervene if need be. We have some areas we let her loose for Shiba 500s but since she doesn't play much with other dogs at home it means we have to be more active instead. Bicycling, jogging, walking in hilly terrain or off road.
    And there are days when she's really antsy at home so then we bring out her activity toys, hide treats around the apartment etc to 'wear her out'.
    Post edited by Juni at 2012-11-11 02:24:11
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    @Pearl please don't use negative methods like e-collars. Please avoid anyone telling you things like e-collars, choke chains, prong collars, ect are the way to teach your Shiba. This is just not the way for any dog, and with a Shiba who is very independent minded is a for sure way to teach them the wrong messages. Respect and value the breed, which means you have to respect their proud independence. You should not be trying to break it down to a submissive (possibly aggressive) fearful Shiba.

    I also don't remember how old your Shiba is, if they are still young things will take time and even as they age the first few years they will seem to regress (just like teenage kids can). I know the road can seem long and hard shaping proper behavior using positive based methods, but it is so much more rewarding and will create a long and positive bond between you and your Shiba.

    I am presuming you are newer to training a dog using good positive methods, please know I am too. Bear is my first dog, and yes, I choose a Shiba, so I understand that it is us as the humans that need to learn a lot (and fast), but while doing this can become overwhelming trying to work out how to use good shaping techniques. This though does not mean we should resort to easy negative methods that seem simpler for our minds to understand, these methods are only going to leave us more frustrated later on.

    For example, my issue is that I would love to elevate my relationship to Bear to the point that he is one of those dogs that when I call to him, even at a dog park, he will come over because he feels I am more important than whatever he is doing (I want it to be a conscious choice he makes). Right now I am one of those silly looking humans that has to creatively coax my dog into a moment I can catch him at the dog park if the humans are ready to leave before him. I really look funny sometimes when I try running around like a maniac (doing my own Shiba 500) trying to get his attention to chase me instead of other dogs and sometimes having to do a funny dance until he lets me grab his collar.

    I know how overwhelmed I get at moments wondering if I will ever easily leave a dog park like others do. I won't even address the fact I would love to do agility as a sport with him in a totally controlled setting around other dogs off leash. I

    Complications because at our dog parks leashes are not allowed inside (and I agree with why), but that means practicing recall with the thing that distracts him most (other dogs) is hard for me as I know I can't practice recall there yet. I don't really have a group of friends myself with dogs, so I don't really have a relationship to people that I could "borrow" for training distractions of other dogs. So at times, while I know what techniques I need to use, I know what I need to work on, I still feel helpless figuring out how to be able to have the right controlled training environment often enough to reinforce the distance, duration, and difficulty training for distraction of other dogs.

    I am telling you this so you understand that I know how it feels to look at your goal and wonder how and if you can get there, but I know through this forum and some good friends online, that it will be possible if I can learn and invest the time (and patience). Please don't take the easy way out and use negative training methods, while the road will require patience to get to your goal, know you will get there with a much better positive relationship with your Shiba if you are willing to take baby steps towards the goal.
    Post edited by redcattoo at 2012-11-11 05:41:31
  • tatonkatatonka
    Posts: 1210
    Post edited by tatonka at 2012-11-11 06:32:08
  • tatonkatatonka
    Posts: 1210
  • Post edited by curlytails at 2012-11-11 23:46:26
  • @curlytails since the topic of dog parks seems to be a recurring one, would it be possible to create a survey on members' use of dog parks. Some questions I would be interested in are:

    1. Number of dogs owned
    2. Breed of each dog
    3. Degree of dog reactivity of your dog/dogs?
    2. Do you regularly visit an off leash dog park?
    3. Size of park?
    4. Are unaltered dogs allowed in park?
    5. Are there restrictions on children?
    6. Questions about use of other common rules
    7. (If no to question 2) Did you regularly visit an off leash dog park in the past?
    8. (If yes to question 7) Why did you stop going to the dog park?
    9. Did you feel that the rules in place were followed by the majority of visitors?

    I think this would provide some interesting insight for people on situations where dog parks have worked and where they haven't for other members.
  • RyanRyan
    Posts: 293
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
  • tatonkatatonka
    Posts: 1210
    Post edited by tatonka at 2012-11-12 02:09:45
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    @tatonka, I think I pretty much would fall in your same camp.

    I think though the design, space, and community a dog park is located in often make a difference in what a persons experiences will be.

    Out of 4 dog parks within 20 minutes of us, there is 1 that we typically avoid (and it happens to be the closest to us). It is smaller, less shade, and often the owners who go there I believe are of questionable social nature themselves with dogs equally of questionable social nature.
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
  • @curlytails I will try to work on something this week, thanks for the info.

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