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Crate training/Nights Help please
  • MikachuMikachu
    Posts: 22
    Entered this in another topic on this category but got no replies so I'll make my on discussion. I'm new to the site and new to shibas but not dogs, my gf has a husky/lab mix that's a year old so I never had to deal with crate training. Our 11 week old shiba Mika has been having trouble with her crate training and nights oh and it's only our 3rd day with her and we are puzzled. we made it den like we put blankets and towels and a chew toy and we put her in the crate during the day in the room we are in twice a day for about an hour each time and she whines for about 5 to 10 mins and the plops down to sleep and we even praise her with a treat when she's in the crate. Big problem is nights she can whine and howl for hours, 1st night for about 15-25 mins not a problem 2nd night hours and hours and my gf works shifts and overnights and only got 3 hours of sleep I must of gotten only 5 hrs, last night was the same thing but we where able to get more sleep. We tried her in our bedroom and in a separate room and results are the same. I was thinking maybe because she sleep a lot during the day? But that's a normal puppy thing right? One min a ball of energy the next min out like a light. Any advice/tips would be greatly appreciated. Was thinking of using D.A.P plug ins? Has anyone tried this? I'm in Canada looked for it at some major pet store and no luck was thinking of ordering it from state side. Also treats for training any recommendations, I got 2 types and she isn't very interested in them.
    Post edited by curlytails at 2012-12-12 23:06:37
  • vnovikovavnovikova
    Posts: 532
    We had the same issue and tried everything. but nothing worked :(. We ended up getting her an ex-pen and she was ok with sleeping there. She absolutely hated the crate at night and shiba screamed and barked non-stop... now she only goes in it to sleep with doors open for 15 minutes or so.

    The first month and a half was a complete nightmare at nights and I used to sleep on a floor next to her ex-pen. It got better with age, so just got to get over it....like you would with a little baby...
  • ZinjaZinja
    Posts: 200
    I just put a blanket over the crate and ignored him. Took awhile but he eventually learned whats going on and he stopped.
  • I unfortunately don't have any advice on the crate training, Melon and Rubee were both already trained when we got them. However, as far as training treats go, both my shibas LOVE Little Jacs treats, made by Bil-Jac. They're little tiny chicken liver morsel things that work really well and are designed for smaller mouths.
  • KibaInuKibaInu
    Posts: 214
    Our pup was crying the first few nights...here are the things we did:

    1. Brought to bedroom...worked for a while but still cried a few times in the night.
    2. Turned on the radio for him to listen to...some may also suggest television.
    3. Covered the crate completely with a blanket...this worked pretty well but would still cry a few times in the middle of the night.
    4. I actually slept on the ground next to him while he was in the crate. He calmed down and was good ever since. Think he just wanted to be sure he wasn't alone and once he could see me all the time he got a bit more comfortable. Between this and the crate cover he adapted started to sleep soundly in about 3-4 nights. Good luck!
  • ZinjaZinja
    Posts: 200
    I've slept close to Sasuke while stroking his paw before... Esp when we had guests sleeping over night.

    You could try the calming air fresheners or a thunder shirt. I think the most effective thing was having my used shirts in the crate while he slept.
  • MikachuMikachu
    Posts: 22
    Thanks for all the great advice, I'll be giving each a shot and see what works best and update yall. Oh I also heard about warm/hot water bottles wrapped in a towel will be testing this out too.
  • jujeejujee
    Posts: 882
  • dorapochdorapoch
    Posts: 131
    Oh man, I am so glad those days are over...

    First few nights, I had Ginko with me in my room in a crate and he would whine and cry every once in a while at night. Since I was always paranoid, I'd take him out potty but as soon as he gets back in he'd whine for a bit. He had an accident once in there, so after that I was even more paranoid. In the daytime he'd hang around in the kitchen/living room.

    Afterwards, I got a bigger pen/crate for him and tried that in another room. I think I tried that for two nights and he would whine, cry, howl, bark all night.

    So we put that in the kitchen/living room area where he usually hangs out.

    The crate in my room was probably due to new and unfamiliar place, along with away from family etc...
    Since it has only been 3 days, give her some time. There were so many frustrating nights, but now he's a charm at night. The more familiar the place, the more comfortable he'd be sleeping in, I think.
  • InoushiInoushi
    Posts: 555
    I had kenshin's crate next to my bed so my hand was near him. Eventually though, I just plopped him onto the bed with me. I got him in the middle of college finals, so I hedged. Plus its how my family house breaks dogs anyway. I used the crate for the first time, and to be honest I never became a fan. I much prefer leaving my dogs loose, and I didn't like how crazy hyper he would get after crate time.
  • LosechLosech
    Posts: 2516
  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 3495
    Losech...that picture is hilarious! Lucky for me Bootz didn't whine as a puppy, just stinky poo poos!
  • konpeitokonpeito
    Posts: 281
    Post edited by konpeito at 2012-01-30 21:38:18
  • dorapochdorapoch
    Posts: 131
    @Losech : OMG, Ginko does that when I put him in his crate and he wants attention. He'd keep it at that face while he looks around to see if anyone is watching, if not then he plops down to nap. Been wanting to take photo of it....I have to make sure to have a camera on hand for the opportunity. hehe
  • NekopanNekopan
    Posts: 403
    Well, I am going to admit that I have never successfully crate trained, either. With my current pup, he was sleeping in it throughout the night, but then he stayed with my mom and got spoiled by sleeping in her bed. Now he cries all night and instead of using tough love, I ended up letting him sleep in my bed too. Fail!

    However, I am going to need him to be in there for a few hours a day. We're working on that. He has some pretty severe separation anxiety so we started small. 30 seconds with the door shut, and only let him out if he wasn't crying. Then we did 1 minute. Then 2 minutes. Then 5 minutes, and I'm sure you get the picture. Right now we're up to 20 minutes, sometimes he cries like no tomorrow and sometimes he happily chews on his bone/naps/whatever. I have heard with this method, if you can get them quiet and calm for an hour and a half, then you can pretty much do any length of time. We'll see.

    As for bedtime, I would do what @losech did. If he cries at night, try to wait for a break in the crying, and then whisk him outside. If he pees, then praise like normal. If he tries to play, take him back inside to the crate. Repeat as often as he is noisy. Dogs, especially Shibas, are smart, and they will get it eventually.
  • KineKine
    Posts: 8
    The things that worked great for me was a shirt I had worn for the day, so its like your with them. If the crying persists then take a little radio or something and play it low so that way they are distracted and dont reacted to every little sound or move you do in your bed. I tried both of these things with great luck. Also long walks before bed. I never even spoke to my shiba once he is in the crate, I feel completely ignoring them gets the point across fast. Good luck, hope he catches on.
  • NekopanNekopan
    Posts: 403
    @notoriousscrat If he's quiet when you're gone (do you have neighbors to ask/confirm this? Or a camera maybe?) you could try putting him in another room where he can't hear you at night. Shibas are weird.

    Or you could just let him loose at night. If it doesn't bother you, and the room is puppy proof, it's really not a big deal. Just be careful about accidents.
  • GatsuGatsu
    Posts: 651
    lol Poor Mika! Guts came in to check out what was all the racket, and he stared up at the screen and he look horrified!
  • dorapochdorapoch
    Posts: 131
    Try covering the sides of the crate with a towel or blanket. They like to feel hidden...it helped once we hid the sides and put it against the wall with the top covered with his stuff, so the only part that is open is the front.
  • DjinnDjinn
    Posts: 161
  • After reading these comments about crate training, I was wondering if you have your kennel/crate set up inside the ex-pen, does it defeat the purpose of training with the kennel if you allow your puppy to sleep at night in the kennel (they're good until they wake up) and allow them to nap either with you in the living room or in the pen during the day or after their nighttime sleep?
  • So... someone recommended this for me, seems mean but it worked! First few nights were a nightmare for sure, we covered her crate, had her next to my bed, then a friend told me to hit the top of her crate once really hard and tell her to QUIET! And it worked! She sighed out of frustration and went to sleep... in the middle of the night she would do it again,then we would hit the crate again.

    Keep in mind that my puppy was able to hold in her pee/poo for 8 hours now, when she was younger we took her out every 4 hours to relieve herself in the middle of the night.

    Also, ear plugs and running the bathroom fan works wonders. We had ear plugs in for a few months...
  • O-M-G.. I forgot how bad crating at night is... I just brought home a 6 month wild one- no training except for potty. He is screaming right now. Thank goodness there are tons of threads about crate training. Knowing I'm not the only one struggling with this is keeping me calm. Seriously thank you guys.

    I kept my Fawkes with him, crated next to him in another room (she is normally crated with me). What do u guys think about that? She is definately not getting sleep right now...
  • JuniJuni
    Posts: 1269

    I don't want to upset anyone, I'm just curious about this crating issue. Is it really necessary to keep the dogs crated? The reason I'm asking is that it's illegal in Sweden where I live and I don't know anyone that does it.
    I was contemplating making some kind of enclosure around Juni's bed when she was a puppy, but never got around to do it and we had very few accidents indoors anyways. I can see why a puppy would cry and whine at night in a crate when it's used to snuggling up to its mummy and siblings. Juni has her bed next to ours and the first nights at home she would come up to our bed and whine a bit but quickly settled down if I just put my arm down and gave her some strokes or scratches.
    She would probably hate being crated now too as she prefers to vary her sleeping positions and spots a few times every night. Usually she moves from her bed, the floor to the sofa
  • Stef777Stef777
    Posts: 246
    @ Juni- I crate Kendaux every night to keep him out of trouble. He does not enjoy sleeping in my room (I sleep with the door closed) and so he is crated downstairs. He really enjoys his crate though and will go in their on his own to take naps. It gives me piece of mind to know he isn't downstairs eating stuff or chewing up stuff while I am sleeping so that is my reason.
    Post edited by Stef777 at 2012-03-02 12:39:20
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4786
  • konpeitokonpeito
    Posts: 281
  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 3495
    @Juni, like lindsayt and konpeito mentioned, Crating is mainly for the dog's safety and to keep him out of trouble. I use to crate my dogs, but I stopped after seeing improvements in their behaviour when out of crate and without supervision. But my house is puppy proofed, so they mainly just sleep, chew on chew toys, or play with each other instead of causing hell on the house.

    As lindsayt mentioned, are exercise pens ok? A lot of people just connect a crate to the exercise pen so they won't be "locked up" and have space to roam.
  • InoushiInoushi
    Posts: 555
    Is not crating really that rare? I didn't really crate Kenshin as a pup and my rottweiler was raised completely crate free. I don't think crates are necessary to be honest, its more of a training issue, crates can make it easier I suppose, but I just puppy proofed my room when he was a pup, and kept him there when I was out, otherwise he was with me where ever I was. He slept with me at night, still does, and it made emergency potty breaks really easy, plus no sleepless nights. Granted a crate and ex-pen makes the level of puppy proofing easy, but I feel like having him free gave him more exposure to household items, so it gave more opportunities to teach him. He was completely house broken before he finished teething, and even during the start he was only mildly destructive.
  • Fira is 5 months old and is crated at night when I sleep (8 hours) and when I am at work (9 hours). I really, REALLY hate having her crated, especially for so long. Unfortunately the couple times we've left her out an hour or two there were no accidents, but a couple of our wooden furniture items were chewed on.
  • CrimsonO2CrimsonO2
    Posts: 1165
    All searches on google seem to imply that Sweden does have an anti-crating law in place. First, I read it was gestational crates (for livestock), but there are tidbits here and there that suggest that their lawmakers deemed that crating dogs was prone to be abused by owners for leaving their dogs/pets in crates for long periods of time, thus they just outlawed it.

    Jesse
  • AWE46M3AWE46M3
    Posts: 357
    When our dog was a pup he whined through the entire first night. He literally would not stop for more than 5-10 minutes at a time. We were concerned he was going to lose his voice - or maybe we were hoping... Haha we contacted the breeder the next day and she basically told us we either deal with it for a couple nights or end up with a dog that cannot be crated/confined. She gave us a few suggestions but reiterated a few times that if we didn't get through it at that time it wasn't going to get any better as he got older. The main point was for us to ignore it and not give him any attention otherwise he learns that making noise equal human attention. On the second night he made a little noise but it wasn't bad at all. I think he stopped by the third or fourth night. I think I created this exact discussion as well! Haha
  • InoushiInoushi
    Posts: 555
    @infernofox10 15 hours a day in a crate is a lot of time. Why not get a play pen? I don't think a crate is meant to be used more than an 8 hour stint for bed time but during the day, especially for a pup, they shouldbe crated in shorter intervals. They make covered play pens if your worried about her breaking out.
  • Miyumi_PupMiyumi_Pup
    Posts: 226
  • I've been keeping Kip in a kennel rather than a crate. Do you guys suggest using a crate over a kennel? I wonder how he's going to take to the crate if i did do adjustment...

    oh and he does fine in his kennel only whines for 2 minutes or less before going to sleep.
    Post edited by KiptheKipster at 2012-03-05 18:07:19
  • JuniJuni
    Posts: 1269
    @lindsayt yes it is illegal and puppy mills are actually not a problem in Sweden. I can't promise they are non exisiting but it is not an issue here, and they would most likely be illegal if found. I am 100% sure there are no Shiba puppy mills. I think most people with naughty dogs have one room or one area that are puppy proof, but yes a bit of damage to the house seems the norm when you have a puppy here. I was lucky who had a pup that really never did any damage and still just goes to bed if left alone in the flat. She goes to a doggy day care when we're at work.
    @bootz you are allowed to have you dog in some sort of enclosure (depending on the dog's size it has to be of certain measurements), so an open crate with a puppy pen would be allowed. The animal protection laws are all about making sure the animal gets to live as natural as possible. And I really don't think it is natural for a dog to stay in such a a small space as a crate for a whole night or even worse a whole day.
    @CrimsonO2 crating is allowed for transportation purposes or for short periods during dog shows or competitions. There is also a paragraph about how long you're allowed to leave the dog alone-not more than 6 hours. I'm pretty sure a lot of people don't live up to that in Sweden either.
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4786
  • koyukikoyuki
    Posts: 1244
  • konpeitokonpeito
    Posts: 281
  • jjlcjjlc
    Posts: 66
    @konpeito The problem isn't your dog, it's your dad. As for the dog, he whines because he knows he'll get out. Which he'll probably do in an ex-pen or most anywhere else that you try to put him that doesn't = what he wants. IMO, as you've guessed yourself, if you let him run free you're going to have accidents to deal with or worse. Retrain your father to stop messing up your dog.

    What I've done: When Miko goes into her crate she rarely whines, but if she does I tell her "quiet", which she always responds to, but sometimes starts up again. I'll repeat two more times, but after the 3rd time I have a soda can with a few pennies in it, wrapped in a sock that I will throw at the crate while saying "quiet". This snaps her attention and stops the whining. I've only had to use the sock twice, the last being a week ago and she hasn't whined in her crate since. YMMV
  • deerparkdeerpark
    Posts: 237
  • jjlcjjlc
    Posts: 66
    @deerpark We had very little difficulty in getting Miko to take to her crate. She whined the first few nights, but would calm down as soon as I laid in front of the crate with her until she settled and got sleepy (15 minutes). Over the next few nights I slowly moved further and further away, toward the bed and have had only one instance of extended crate whining since (see below).

    Now, something that some here may disagree with but that our trainer suggests, uses and has used wtih Shibas are bitter apple and a soda can with pennies inside, stuffed in a sock or soft bag.

    After attempting to quiet them by telling them "quiet" she will either rap the can on the front of the crate, which distacts and quiets the dog or spray the dogs lips with bitter apple. She did this with another pup during our puppy class, one that had never been in a crate, but whose owner was desperate to get her there, and it worked. Granted, that's not a shiba, but she has worked with quite a few of them in her career as well. We used the can trick one time with Miko after her being particularly fired up when it was well past our bed time and it worked. FWIW.

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