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Let's discuss the role of dominance in the social hierarchy & training of domestic and wild canine.
  • BradA1878BradA1878
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  • BradA1878BradA1878
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    Post edited by BradA1878 at 2010-12-17 22:42:23
  • BradA1878BradA1878
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  • BradA1878BradA1878
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  • Kuro_KaiKuro_Kai
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    I believe people are using simplistic terms to describe a complex social interaction and everyone's place in it (theirs and the dog) rather than try to explain something they can't describe. Not without writing a very disjointed and confusing set of encyclopedias.

    There is a social order. It's not as simple or cut & dried as the terms "Alpha" and "Dominance" imply. It's extremely fluid and adapting if it is a successful one. A lot is lost in the attempt to translate what they see, do and the results into a short post or conversation. But saying there is no such thing as an order is unrealistic.
  • McYogiMcYogi
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  • lindsaytlindsayt
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  • kwyldkwyld
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    This information is priceless, thank you very much for posting it!
  • KBBD83KBBD83
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    I read the Dr. Ian Dunbar one yesterday. :) Very nice post! You are the jam!
  • BradA1878BradA1878
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  • RorsRors
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    Thank you Brad for finding the words I meant for other threads.

    Its time you let the judgmental know how I trained my perfectly non-fearing well adjusted pups. Any reference in the past tense implies a time when they weren't arthritic and could play the games described.

    I dont know why those articles shy from terms of alpha beta etc. I see their scientific definitions but to be so steadfast in their definition and associating such negative connotations I cant understand.
    I always saw those terms as the same as giving an individual in a study group a number and a possible rank not a hard faced judgment of that aggressiveness.

    So we'll talk in terms of Families.

    In my experience adolescent dogs do try to usurp their mother and father testing their boundaries.

    The only time I have had to hold my dog by the scuff and stare him down was when as three year old Akira had a go at me when I had to take a lamb shank from him. He has never snapped at me since.
    As a puppy I trained him when he could be rougher than other times - I would wear a pair of riggers gloves and he found he could be fairly rough and be a real boy but as soon as the gloves came off there was no mouthing or licking.

    We would play "catch the paws" - where I would try to tap his paws and lightly pull his fur he is a smart boy and loved this game but also knew his boundaries. He would put on a show and prance around like a paper dragon at a Chinese New Years festival - clashing jaws and all - I would occasionally test him and put my bare hand to his mouth and he would stop and allow me to pat him.
    Though not a Shiba he certainly did the Akira500, sorry its not exclusive neither is the cat like behaviour - Japanese spitz could possibly have Shiba blood in them since they have only been a recognised breed for about 80 years.

    All other training was Treat and fun training as a young puppy and like the stop/go method for leash training from adolescence on. Akira was to smart for treat or toy training - still is at 14 1/2. He would only do things if he got the treat and he makes sure he gets it by standing on your feet until you get up then running to the spot the treats are kept and looking back between me and the treats. Toy training bored him he would only chase a ball a couple of times - he liked laser pointers better and would look to see if it was on before he would look for the spot on the floor. He also can use mirrors and knows that it is himself. He uses them to spy on us when he would sneak inside after being sent out.

    He only lets you pat him when he wants - only comes back from the letterbox wee n sniff visit when he wants even when a treat is offered.
    When we could walk him at the park we would have to watch him closely - if there was another dog we would have to command him to wait while we hooked the leash on him or he would see it as an "OK" to fly across the oval to go say hello. Kiyo not far behind.

    Both our dogs would stop at the curb off lead and cross when it was "OK"

    Kiyo the female - now 14 could not be trained using any assertive techniques ie raising my voice it would make her unresponsive or in the instance of telling her to be quiet from inside when she started barking outside she would walk giving lower barks at a lower volume. In non of these circumstances did I then chase her down and make her submit in some aggressive form.Treats Hugs claps squeals and songs is what Kiyo responds to
    Kiyo always deferred to My Wife and I when it came to taking food away but if Akira tried it she could draw blood.

    With food training I found the best way in formal training to show that you have extra food to give them - take their food and made a big show about adding it to their bowl and giving it to them.

    I have even trained a friends pug (smart dogs) to stop jumping on you once you sit on the sofa in two minutes- They love attention and hugs so I sat the dog down on the lounge next to me and only patted her when she was calm and composed - prior to that my friend used to yell in its face with a full essay of explaination of do s n donts.

    I have never Dominant rolled my dogs to make a point or hit or caged/ time outed my dogs. I guess sending them outside away from us because they have been naughty does count as a form of that though. But as proof of their confidence in the Family group they would sneak in through the other dog door as stand at the door way until we said "OK". They know their boundaries and the comments by friends family and breeders justify that our common sense and adaptive training techniques work well - most of which appeared to be obvious and common sense.

    As most people that believe their dogs are family I have only ever encouraged self expression in our dogs even now Akira has learnt to put on a new show by walking into our full length bay window Drapes wrapping himself up in them and finding his way out enough that you can just see his eyes and if praise and cheering doesn't come soon enough he'll do it until he does.

    There are 20 years of training other peoples dogs 14 1/2 years of owning our own worth of stories and more years re RAW food for dogs and cats - we had a brindle Tabby x Burmese cat that was like a dog growing up.
    We have never been domineering over the lives entrusted to us and treat their stubbornness and antics as a privilege to be a part of.
    I hope this clears up any misconceptions of the lives my dogs have.
    Post edited by Rors at 2010-12-18 05:15:06
  • RorsRors
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    Oh I forgot _ the lesson of the critical value of socialisation was made very clear in the differences between My Boy and Girl.

    With Akira I was fortunate to have been able to plan and take 2 wks of annual leave off when we brought him home.
    Before that the breeder had started training him and his litter mates from the first day:
    Touching them every where then as soon as they could stand they would put him in the show pose only for a second but supporting his chin and tail would say - Stand. They would do this every few hours for each pup for the first week then the periods got longer - he is still a poser today.

    Getting Akira home I took him every where with me He met 100 people in those two weeks and hung out with vaccinated friends dogs, my cat and any other animal we could get near ( that were wild - ducks birds etc) he was pretty much toilet trained in a couple of days accidents excepted. This did not stop When I get the video on You Tube you will see these are not just cute fluffy dogs - they are very much a big dog in a little body.
    The video shows how they were walked on lead to the park then off lead at the park in the pond then home off lead on the way home.

    Kiyo was a different story - six months later we had used up our leave and the breeders knowing we wanted a girl called us out of the blue- Kiyo was a mistake the husband had made letting the dog in with her mum. She was our little secret.
    As such she was brought up by the other breeder (they were breeding/business partners) who just left her crated with her litter mates with no training no real interaction.

    She was left with Akira during the day and we could only do any proper training and socialising on weekends and this limited introduction to the world around her is reflected in her wariness of people, dogs and changes in routine and her environment.

    Thus the need for varied training techniques
  • RorsRors
    Posts: 165
    Have been to a never before visited pet shop this morning and noticed a harness the is supposed to stop pulling.
    Has any one tried this one - it seems to pull the harness tighter from under their torso up to the walkers hand.
    I have used the choker chain method when first starting with Akita but stopped it quick smart when I started using the stop go method by accident not just at curb sides.
  • McYogiMcYogi
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  • RorsRors
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    No thats fine - it must be a cultural syntax thing - I feel I am a balanced trainer - I agree with all of Brads posted info I also truly believe that we need a holistic approach and immerse our dogs in as much natural behaviour as possible ie walks in wooded areas on grass not concrete jungles (Iknow the dog doesnt know any better) the RAW diet is part of that view
    I believe as well as in positive reinforcement that a level of discipline is needed - getting the dog to understand that no means no.
    The discipline comes in various forms but never hurting, smacking or using a rolled up news paper etc.

    As Kuro_Kai has mentioned , in paraphrasing my views and methods cannot I even begin to explain myself clearly.

    In the posts above I tried to explain how I did what I did and When.

    I love my pups and hate the kind of label that was misunderstood as my stance when I misused a label/labels - I did open the door I realise now by mentioning that dogs still have some behavioural characteristics as wolves - more so with Shibas especially made worse when not socialised. I know they aren't Wolves they have been domesticated which changes the level of characteristics dogs would otherwise have. This was also Shown in experiments in Russia performed on The Silver Fox,
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox. there has been a Documentary: The secret life of dogs - that included this experiment, which was excellent and worth getting a copy of.

    I do what I feel is best for my pups and I am responsible to them. as Brad said - "its like religion" or telling someone the best way to raise your kids - there are a pile of books on those subjects - but whose right?

    Though it cant be seen I have enjoyed reading other threads about the experiences with the wonderful breed. I read these with excitement and interest in understanding their hands on experience with their unique dogs and only try to comment on what I know from my experience and research.

    If I have come off too aggressive in general( as my wife also seems to think) before anyone has gotten used to my core beliefs then I apologise to all

    Does this help?
    Post edited by Rors at 2010-12-18 05:10:59
  • An interesting discussion on types of dog owner personalities. Thought I would throw this in here, because dog owner personalities might influence "family/pack dynamics".

    http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/episodes/why-we-love-cats-and-dogs/dog-owner-behavior-patterns-whats-yours/4626/
  • Kuro_KaiKuro_Kai
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  • BradA1878BradA1878
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  • InoushiInoushi
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    I was just wondering, why is positive reinforcement considered better in the dog world? While I can see why from a moral standpoint, someone who works with other people's dogs (I always use strictly positive reinforcement with dogs I work with, the closest I get to negative reinforcement is a time out) and as a dog owner, I haven't seen the science to back this up. I'm planning to be a psychologist, and have been studying learning theory for a while now, under some respected mentors, and yet I don't ever hear about the merits of positive reinforcement. A lot of people here think of learning theory as being all about positive reinforcement, but I've studied only a small fraction of it (its very, very massive) and its much more complex than that. Things like context, probability, timing, and motivation vs performance all play a much bigger role then it. In psychology positive reinforcement its just one possible tool you can use, and is used just as much as negative reinforcement (i.e. shocks), if not less. In fact, in the psychological field negative reinforcement is utilized for humans as well. For example if a patient doesn't show up to their appointment on time, or with their "hw" done, you don't see them that day. Which gets me to another point I want to make, I feel that a lot of people shy away from negative reinforcement when it's not necessarily something that will hurt the animal, just like positive reinforcement can hurt the animal.

    For example when you ignore a puppy for biting you, you are not using positive training, you are in fact using negative reinforcement, whereas smiling at your pup when it does something wrong is positive reinforcement. Don't get me wrong, I don't like the idea of using force with animals, however, I also don't think it's entirely scientifically accurate to say its better or that one can't be harmful. I've seen people make animals so dependent upon treats that when the moment they needed their training the most, but didn't have a treat, they ended up with a dead dog. From my own experience, Ive always used a little bit of both with all of my animals. My Rottweiler uses a prong collar (however it is nowhere as near as sharp as the ones they make today) i know a lot of people feel it's not needed, but when you have a hundred pound animal that has a lot of prejudice towards it in a crowded urban setting, you can't take the chance (especially when your twelve years old and weigh less). In the case of Shiba Inu I have heard how much they need positive reinforcement, however I can tell you that it was through the use of negative reinforcement I had a pup who was still cutting teeth who knew not chew wires, or destroy my things. He doesn't need to be crated and has the run of the house, and is only separated so that my other dog takes a break from him. People sometimes express the fear that their dog will hate them if they aren't anything but passive aggressive however, both of my dogs love me to bits. If I take them off the lead they wont walk too far away from me, and when I come home I get the wonderful experience of two dogs literally dancing in joy.

    Which brings me to my view on packs. I totally agree with Mech, I've been a fan of his since grade school, and I know how much he has changed his work over the years. I have spent a lot of time reading literature on wolves because they have been my favorite animal since before I could say sentences. So I really do believe the old definitions are pretty outdated. However I also don't think dogs are too different from them. I have found it very interesting that people often say that dogs are not wolves when it comes to pack theory, but will justify crate training with their ancestry. From my research, I have come to the conclusion that wolves are the generalists, where as dogs are the specialists. Wolves have the traits of all dogs, while dogs have some traits of the wolves, some of which are much more extreme. However I think in a social context wolves are more mature and socially developed, whereas the dog is immature and has been developed to understand human cues. Dogs do belong to family units, and the do know who is boss. How you reach that status is dependent upon you. I personally am against using food and resources as a means of leadership. I have yet to find a dog trained that way that wasn't what I call a traitor mutt. For this reason I free feed all of my animals. I do it in a controlled enough way that they stay trim, but they eat when they want to. I don't take their food away from them, and because of this food aggression for most foods is pretty much nonexistent in my household nor do I have to worry about them choking on their kibble.

    In the end, you can read a thousand books, and talk to a million people, but its all about what sort of relationship you want with your dog, and what works for that. When you train your dog to be a certain way through books, keep in mind your training it to be someone else's ideal dog (even though a lot of people love Dunbar, I don't think it's fair to say that model of dog behavior is the perfect dog for everyone, its dunbar's perfect dog, so I think people need to beat themselves up less if they messed up according the schedules outlay-ed in Dunbar's work. I know this because even as people express regret, they still say they love their dogs), for it be your ideal dog, you're going to have find some things out on your own.

    *I do not intend for anyone to take my anecdotes as form as advisement or advice, just simply as a way to see things from a different perspective. I also want to say that each dog is different and you can only shape their behavior so much be it through how it was bred (because you can't truly control temperaments through breeding, from a psychological standpoint it's a mixture of many things) or how you trained it. So if you wind up with a terror it may not be entirely your fault.
  • InoushiInoushi
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    @ Brada: I totally agree with you! I really think its silly to be a "dog" some of the time, and its pretty obvious that dogs do not view humans as other dogs. I'm also not a fan of micro managing. When people do that I find that it builds tension between the dog and the owner. Especially when people want their dog to be good when they have to leave them home alone. Ive let my two dogs work out everything with little intervention and I have to say they bonded very fast. The only time I really intervene is when I see evidence of food aggression, or if my older dog wants to sleep but the puppy wants to play. Other then that, I don't come running when the two of them are snarling and tumbling in play (I was told by someone watching them interact that I was a bad owner, even though both of my dogs were having a fun time) or when they have minor disputes. They can sort these things out on their own, and because of that, it never escalates. Does that mean I don't supervise them? Nope, but I prefer dogs to let my dogs do their own thing for the most part, plus its pretty educational if you ask me.
  • Post edited by shibamistress at 2010-12-18 06:27:35
  • Post edited by shibamistress at 2010-12-18 06:32:27
  • RorsRors
    Posts: 165
    Thanks for the advise Shibamistress - to see how all of you care so much about the mental and physical welfare of your dogs and the vast array of options you use is great, again sorry for not realising the weighted terms I used in past threads. If you watch my new clip of when my two were younger I hope it explains my reaction to what I thought were suggestions that I was using outdated and damaging methods.

    As can be seen I agree with no need for micro managing every move the dog makes, I feel it would subdue their personality/character to much.
    I know there will be huge challenges ahead because we found a breeder that will not enforce neutering (re: the risks to the dog info that someone provided) so will wait hopefully past a year and look forward to further advise from those that have gone through the terrible teens.
  • I'm far from an expert on this. I've grown up around dogs my whole life, but Katsu and Tanuki are the first two that are totally mine. When I was a kid my family raised their dogs the "old school" way. If the dog peed it got it's nose rubbed in it, if it did something bad it got a whap on the ass. A major turning point for me on how I view dogs was when my aunt got her Akita/Shep mix Pepper. She let me pick him out from the pound, and I stayed over the first weekend ,he was home. I slept next to him in the basement for three days, fed him, cleaned up after him. He wasn't a perfect puppy he got into stuff, chewed on things, messed in the house. My aunt would still do the old school stuff to correct him, I never did. I'm not sure if it had anything to do with that but me and that dog were best friends. I never laid a hand on him in anger and he always listened to me, he was like my shadow when I went over and we did everything together. I know it's a human term and hard to apply to dogs but I feel that he "respected" me. To me it's more about respect with your dog then with dominance. Respect is something that's calm but still strong , it's firm. To me dominate is more violent, it's imposing your will forecfully. Again this is with people so it doesn't exactly translate with dogs. We don't hit our guys, we don't use shock collars. We praise and love them, and when they're bad we take something away.

    As far as using pain as a teaching tool in dogs. Pain is one of the oldest and most basic sensations/survival instincts. It is ignorant to ignore something that evolution has been using to teach lessons for millions of years. I really do feel that a measured and controlled amount of pain can be used as a teaching tool in people but not in dogs. The main diffrence is that a person can be made to understand why something is happening to them. Without the understanding there's no lesson. No matter how much research has been done, no matter how much experience one may have with their dogs there is no way that you can communicate/understand what they're thinking. You can make very educated guesses and you'll probably be partially right, but you'll never know 100 percent. You can't talk to your dog like you'd talk to a person. You can't explain to them why you're shocking them, or hitting them. They may learn on a basic level, don't do this because it hurts, and it may work. Dogs don't have morals, but people do. So when it comes to training I feel that people should act morally towards there dogs. Buy everyone has a different standard of morality.
  • McYogiMcYogi
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  • RorsRors
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    This is so cool. Can you help me regarding these Dog behaviour observations, I have tried to keep my opinion out of the narrative :
    I really would like other interpretations of what could be going on.

    Firstly My two pups aren't Shibas - but they are definitely Spitz. I have also seen most other dogs do this : Dry Humping,
    Please dont be offended by the term, I use it to describe the humping action with no genital contact.
    Kiyo the female will DH Akira the boy at times when he is getting more attention than her. Also who walks through a door first? Sleeping on beds is it an issue: I was lead to believe this was an act dominant behaviour.

    Secondly: The first time my wife and I met real live Shibas in their own home.

    Their owners occasionally breed and regularly Show the younger Dogs and all of their dogs have been or are Champions or Grand Champion dogs here in Australia. They use Nippo lines and import Sperm from Japan when they breed.

    The following terms regarding dominance and pack behaviour are ***theirs not mine***

    We arrived at the house and the dogs were in there pens and couldnt see us, we were asked to sit on the sofa and wait.
    Then they said they would let in the Alpha Male and female ( these were the parents of the beta female).

    The 10 yr old A male (Who by the way would finish any fights their Siberian Husky would start) walked in up to us had a sniff and allowed us to briefly pat him then walked away sat somewhere else and didnt come up to us again.He also is used as pet therapy at retirement villages and childrens wards.
    The A female walked in about the same time waited for the male to do his thing then gave us a sniff for a much longer period
    (seemed like 5 min) while letting us pat her. OK they were put back after about 30min.

    Then the show started. The Beta Dogs were let into the room.
    The B Male walked straight up to my wife and put his two front paws on her lap and stared her straight in the eyes from about 8 inches away - for about 10 seconds.
    As soon as I saw this I kept my gaze steady watching him the whole time. The B male never glanced up to look me in the eye he just calmly walked past me to a gap on the sofa jumped up and sat up behind me on the head rest - head leaning over mine.

    after about 5min the owner called him over to show us the shiba scream and soon after that the Bs gave us a Shiba 500

    I truly fell in love with the breed after that introduction.

    PS.
    The breeders dont let the two males in the exercise yard together, the Beta will often start trouble with the Alpha when the girls are around and are not even in season.

    The second breeder/show-er we have locally also runs her males separately for similar reasons.
    Post edited by Rors at 2010-12-18 21:27:10
  • BradA1878BradA1878
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    Post edited by BradA1878 at 2010-12-18 23:21:13
  • Kuro_KaiKuro_Kai
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    Post edited by BradA1878 at 2010-12-18 23:20:24
  • Kuro_KaiKuro_Kai
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    I don't take anything personal unless it is directed at directly me directly ;-) So no worries. I dunno what Cesar Millan and his camps are trying to achieve. Or what they terms they use to describe it. But to me a balanced trainer is trying to achieve a balanced dog. Yin & Yang almost.

    I think terminology is again mudding the water.
  • Brad, you hit one of my main problems with the whole alpha dog/dominance training based methods. It really has the potential to get out of hand and do more harm to your dogs than good if you're not well versed and cosistent in it's aplication. In some of my trips to the dog park I've seen people using this method and even "teaching" it to others. Just because you make the best Ceasear Milan "CCCHHHHHTTTT" sound doesn't make you an expert. I've sat on a bench listening to someone tell someone else the importance of dominating their dog and the finer points of doing the fake biting thing that Ceasar does, all the while demonstrating it on his dog who was just sitting there. What is that teaching his dog! I've seen a guy run into the middle of a fight that broke out, throw his arms out to the side and then give a super "CCHHTTT" to try to break up the fight. What the hell is that supposed to do? I've seen people grab their dog by the scruff of the neck push them down to the ground and then roll them. This teaches what? I've never said anything to these people because they can train their dogs the way they want, and I'm no expert. But I really don't see what kind of results they expect.

    In my very unprofessional opinion the words dominance and aggression are very overused by some when it comes to their dogs. A dog is such a complex animal, that the words are used in too much of a general way. I really don't see how humping is a dominant act. Katsu will bang the hell out of Tanuki when they're playing, Tanuki will hump her right back. There's no aggression they're just playing. When Katsu sees another dog she'll get excited and bark some may see this as an aggressive act but she just wants to play. Sometimes people apply these labels to their dogs behaviours too quickly. My dog is on the couch he's dominating me, my dog lifts his leg he's being dominant, my dog sat on my head and farted on me he did that to show he's the alpha dog, etc. I'm not saying that dogs can't be dominant or aggressive, just that it doesn't happen as often people think.

    However I have seen Katsu show a dominant attitude a few times. This happens mostly when we go to my aunts house. My aunt has a sweet boxer/shep mix named Riley. At a bbq when Katsu was a puppy my dad threw two ribs on the ground for the dogs. Katsu and Riley ran over, and little 10 lb Katsu used her 100lb attitude to intimidate a much bigger RIley. She ended up getting both ribs and chasing Riley away. We took a rib from her and gave it back to Riley and seperated them. Katsu cleaned hers to the bone in about thirty seconds and then went over and tried to get the rib from Riley. We ended up taking the ribs away totally. We've been over some other holidays, and Katsu will take over Riley's food and keep her away from her food bowl. So from my understand this is Katsu being dominant over Riley. There is a limited resource, Katsu and RIley want it. Katsu takes it and keeps Riley from having it. She doesn't do this to Tanuki and we haven't really freaked out about it when we go to my aunts house. When the dogs are fed Katsu is fed in her crate, and no one puts food down on the floor. Riley is the only dog she does this with, and I thik alot of it has to do with the fact that Riley is a very timid dog. I think she's timid because of the way she's been trained.


    I know a breeder who lets her dogs out in a certain order. Mostly it does more with the dogs personalities and sexes. Obviously when the females are in season she won't let them out unwatched with a male, she doesn't want any accidental breedings. Also she'll be careful with the females because they can be more snakry when they're in season. There are males that won't be let out together, more because certain males weren't raised and trained by her so they're not a well socialized rather than the fact they're trying to be dominant. I also think alot of it is that she doesn't want 15 shibas out in a run at once. I don't care who you are 15 shibas is too much for anyone to try to watch at once.

    As far as our horrible training goes, we're definitely not the best. Katsu is super laid back and generally well behaved, she's recieve most of the training and knows the most commands. She's super smart and actually does listen to us more often than not. Tanuki is still a maniac and is pretty dumb sometimes. He knows sit and how to give kisses. He also know the word "Enough". That's his leave it command, it can mean don't drink that whole bowl of water in 10 seconds. Or stop eating the grass, or sit down and give me that stick your trying to eat. For him it means stop what you're doing and look at me. But mostly it comes down to us for his lack of training.

    We'll train using treats, and I've used a clicker to teach Katsu a few things. We use praise when they do something we like. If they're doing something bad we'll take away whatever they're into, or take them out of the situation. When they're running around like total maniacs we will yell out" Hey knock it off" or something like that. If the shiba 500 gets too out of hand we'll hold one of the couch pillows over our head and say "pillow" For whatever reason it gets their attention and they calm down. So I don't even know what kind of training or lack there of camp we fall into. I'd be willing to try any kind of training as long as it didn't use fear or pain as a main teaching component. The more I've read this thread the more I realize that ther is no unifiying theory of dog training. It really comes down to you and your dog. Mostly it comes down to the person.
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    Post edited by jujee at 2011-06-01 17:42:41
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    The labeling thing is what happens at my dog park all the time.

    Yesterday where was a rowdy young white Shepherd/Husky mix who wanted a soccer ball. He would get into tussles with a Pit Bull over it. Everyone threw out the dominance crap and figured it was because he wasn't neutered yet.
    To me it looked like he wanted the ball and didn't want to share. Resource guarding to me, not dominance.

    Another was an old Pointer who didn't like young dogs rushing around her. She would get real snappy and bark angrily at them and chase them off. Conker was one of them, and he deserved it since he charged up to her and got in her face then refused to let her sniff his butt. I'd get angry at a young dog who did that if I was her as well, and everyone kept saying "That Pointer is dominant, she needs a stronger Alpha" etc. It was really obnoxious.

    And yet another was this cute little Pomeranian/Jack Russell mix. He would chase after his ball, get it and bring it back but Conker is a dumbass and likes to charge dogs when they have toys. I try to stop him since I know he's eventually going to start a fight doing that, and this little dog dropped his ball and showed his teeth to Conker who just brushed him off and walked away.
    The woman who owned him mentioned him showing his teeth, and her husband said "He's lucky I didn't see that or I'd have put him on the ground, dominate him like Cesar Millan." The guy continued saying that he was a dominant little dog who needed to be put in his place a lot. I loudly said that it was the little dog's right to show his teeth at mine, and I'd prefer if he did, so Conker would learn that he didn't like Conker charging up to him like that. I also said that suppressing that behavior leads to flat-out attacking and that my dog was the one at fault, not theirs, and that their dog wasn't dominant he was just communicating his dislike towards Conker's behavior.
  • shibamistressshibamistress
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