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Body Language: play vs. fight?
  • tsukitsunetsukitsune
    Posts: 6468


    Where: a large, one bedroom apartment with three rooms open for doggy play (including the kitchen where the water and food are)



    Who: Kobe, the neutered male; Kitsune, the neutered male; Tsuki, the spayed female



    When: 6 times yesterday, 0 and counting today (which started 21 mins ago)



    Why: who the hell knows



    -we are trying to monitor every interaction between Kobe, foster, and Kitsune, resident. It is not easy. We have Kobe on a leash 24/7 just so its easier to pull him out if a fight starts. We also have him on a lead trying to perceive any actions that Kitsune might think are "rude". Also, we're working on letting Kobe know we are in charge using the lead.

    Kobe is also crated at night in our bedroom, Kitsune is not - he usually sleeps under the bed.

    Kitsune has free run of his house. When Kitsune approaches Kobe, it seems that it will result in hair standing on Kitsune, and either a play stance (face to ground, butt in air, barking a bit) or a fight (he starts growling and nipping).



    But their 'fights' (which seem to only be a lot of dramatic noises and no real injury) come out of NO WHERE, mostly during what I perceive as play for a couple minutes than BOOM - fight! I believe Kitsune starts them, but again its so fast, even watching makes it hard to tell.



    What is the difference or tell-tale signs of a fight vs. male dogs playing????

    (and in all of this, Tsuki has not been involved in one fight with either of them)



     

  • kwyldkwyld
    Posts: 506


    I think all of them should be crated at night, should eat in their crate, and should be separated from each other probably with baby gates in the house.  I would use Gentle Leaders on all of them too for most of the day to do obedience training with.  I would exercise them until they are beyond tired.  I would feed Tsuki first, Kit second, and Kobe last.  Make them do obedience before they eat.  Only feed them twice a day, no community bowls.  **Make them do obedience before you give them attention.**  Do stand on the leash exercises.  They will respect you real quick.  Do all that for a month or two and then reintroduce them slowly and make them earn their privileges.  *Buy books on animal behavior to learn the difference in play and aggression, I did and it's helped me a lot.*  Don't let them get on the couches or the bed, and no toys until the work for them.  That's how I would do it, but I'm sure you will get tons of other good ideas. 



     

    Post edited by kwyld at 2008-04-21 10:07:35
  • kwyldkwyld
    Posts: 506
    Aggressive signs are usually stiffness in movement(this is a biggie), giving the other dog "whale eyes" where the whites are showing, hackling(that can also be from non aggressive arousal), most dogs will give a growl for a warning to tell the other dog to back off.  If the dog doesn't growl, usually it will do the stiffness in movement, but it only lasts like .5 seconds, so you need to catch it pretty quick.  Tail up, ears up, and sometimes standing tall.   
    Post edited by kwyld at 2008-04-21 10:24:21
  • tsukitsunetsukitsune
    Posts: 6468


    but how do you notice a tail up on a shiba with a curled tail?!?



    Thank you so much for the info Kelly - we are taking your advice regarding feeding, when where how, and the pecking order of feeding. 

    Why, based on what I said, did you say to feed Tsuki 1st, Kitsune 2nd and Kobe 3rd?



    Also, Kitsune is 'rubbing' against Kobe a lot, when he walks by him, he will lean into him but keep walking, and then do it again. What is that?

    Post edited by tsukitsune at 2008-04-21 10:41:59
  • brandon_wbrandon_w
    Posts: 3433
    When things go from rough play to fighting with Nemo, things always get much, much louder.  Their playing can be loud, but the fighting is just crazy loud.  Also tufts of hair flying tends to be a good sign that they are angry also.
  • I agree with Kelly. If you are having difficulty getting them to behave, you need to the NILF approach to the extreme. If they want to play together, they need to earn it and if they stop playing nicely they loose the privilege immediately. As for the rubbing, I'm no expert but I have observed it once before when I had a second female Shiba staying the weekend with Lucy and I. In their case it was an invitation to play. It would be difficult to tell without seeing the whole picture what exactly it means in your case.
  • tsukitsunetsukitsune
    Posts: 6468


    I'll try to get the 'rubbing' on video, its strange. appears to be friendly but has turned confrontational



    We've seen a vast change in just 3 hours of changing how WE interact. I feel like I've cheated my two shibas because they have not been trained properly by me! Starting today at 7.21am they are!



    So far, no fight today, which in 3 hours time is a major improvement over yesterday. we put them in their crates with their food, Tsuki 1st then Kitsune than Kobe. Left them to eat for 20 mins, only Kobe ate. Took them away in their order. Left them in the crate for another 10 mns. Then took them out, in order, made them sit, harnessed them up, gave them some affection and leashed them, one by one. Then for our hour walk, Tsuki and Kitsune were in front, walked by John and I was in back with Kobe (who is awesome on the leash!) Is that the right way to walk??

    Anyway, we brought them in, unhooked them in order, made them sit and gave affection, let them get water in order.

    Then we let them play a bit, took them aside individually when they wanted affection and made them sit first. And if one was invading that personal time, we said "NO" and pushed them away.

    Now they are sleeping, all in seperate rooms on their own accord.

    Peace, for the moment, but peace nonetheless.

    I think I have to remember to be calm and positive 100% of the time, and not worry about a fight breaking out.



    2 days down, tons to go! A real work in progress, but I'm hopeful.

    Its just so interesting, and confusing, to watch their interactions with one another.



    We're also proactively working with Kitsune and trust. I don't think he believes we will protect him and gets anxious when he shouldn't have to be. I truly believe most of the aggessive issue is with him and not being as confident as the other two.

    Post edited by tsukitsune at 2008-04-21 12:25:30
  • Yes Jen!!!! That's great. You guys are really taking charge. There is absolutely no way they won't be seeing you guys as their leaders now. As far the walking goes, as long as you and John are comfortable then you are doing it right. The important thing about the walk is that it is a pack activity that is controlled by you and John so whatever rules you choose to enforce are fine as long as you do have rules and you are consistent in enforcing them. Good job. Way to take charge and keep up the good work!
  • scarletscarlet
    Posts: 562
    where is brada??????
  • kwyldkwyld
    Posts: 506


    Jen, you sound like you are doing everything very well so far.  I guess with a Shiba you might want to look for more stiffness in the tail because it is curled, because you are right, it is hard to tell with this breed!  I know when Taj gets aroused by something, she moves her tail back and forth rigidly like in a "tick, tock" fashion.  I got this e-mail from my co-worker regarding aggressive signs, and also what is called a "calming signal" in dogs.  When dogs want to avoid confrontation, they will do things like distraction sniffing(sniffing for something invisible on the ground), licking their lips, circling, etc.  I will post it on here tomorrow, I need her to re-send it to me, it's very informative!!  You can learn what these calming signals are and even do them back to your dog to reassure them in a tense situation. 



    I always feed Kohji last because he is the biggest trouble maker out of my 3.  News is clearly the leader of the 3 and the calmest in nature so I feed him first, then Taj, then Kohji.  When a dog in a pack doesn't respect you, he needs to have everything last, and be at the bottom of the totem pole.  If you keep a close eye on them and start to figure out who makes the most trouble and starts the fights, whichever dog that is,needs to eat last.  I'll tell you what though, when I first got News, I fed him last because I didn't know how he was going to fall into rank with my other two, and now I have switched and feed Kohji last.  Tsuki sounds like a good girl, she doesn't make trouble so she can eat first, I just wouldn't be feeding either of the fighting dogs first.  Some people may not agree with this theory, but I think it works to a certain degree, and wild dogs in a pack always eat in order of their rank.     



    The rubbing might be Kit trying to be dominant over Kobe, to a certain degree.  Maybe not.  I know my dog News body slams, rubs, and pushes Kohji out of the way a lot and Kohji and Taj never do this to News or each other.  It sounds like Kit is pushing his limits with Kobe and getting in his space saying "What are you gunna do about it?"  Or it could just be him trying to play with him. 



    Remember to keep things like this up and don't let them get off easy, do these exercises for seriously weeks to a month or two. 

    Post edited by kwyld at 2008-04-21 13:59:23
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 2240


    I'm gonna be honest here, and a bit contradictory to what others wrote, in our pack we don't play the order game. We don't feed in any particular order, we don't try to adjust the dogs order when entering or leaving a door and we don't do this for water or toys either. Its really just to hard to know 100% for sure who is above who in the pack order and if you are enforcing the wrong order then you are actually creating more strife in the pack.  Also, the pack order is constantly changing with our dogs.  And the pack order can be different for different things.



    The best way to circumvent issues in the pack is to not allow them to happen to begin with. If we leave or go upstairs when the dogs are out we put the dogs that could cause an issue in a gated of section of the house or in a pen/crate so we know there will be no issue - this even applies if we go upstairs for 3 minutes.



    If there is an issue that happens, like a fight or something we are not ok with, we remove the dogs that are having the issue and put them in crates or pens for a "time out". We have found timeouts are the VERY BEST way to discipline Shibas because the worst thing for a Shiba is not getting attention or being allowed to play.



    ----



    As for what exactly to look for in fight "body language," I think Kelly summed that up perfectly. Movement becomes stiff, and quick and the general expression on the dog's face changes.

  • tsukitsunetsukitsune
    Posts: 6468


    how do you know when it will become a fight? I dont want to interupt all interaction, but we have been doing timeouts.



    I agree its hard to see what the order is or is become with the 3 of them, but as Tsuki has a higher tolerance level and hasn't started a fight yet, I'm feeding her first anyway.



    They are all eating dinner in their crates. My two were not used to not having a community bowl and skipped breakfast but were all too willing to get this meal!! I like it - no more community bowl!!! I can't believe I felt bad for them changing that habit.

    When is it safe to feed them outside their crate? OR is it good practice to always do that?

  • Well, it is always safe to feed them inside their crates. If, after a while they are doing well, you can consider leaving the door open if you really want to. If that goes well for a few weeks, then put the bowls outside the crates but right in front of them. Again, wait a few weeks. You get the idea. Baby steps.
  • hondruhondru
    Posts: 529


    Well, Isaac just kindly smashed the keyboard, deleting a big long message, so let's see if I can replicate it.



    I'm inclined to agree with Brad as far as doing things "in order". First of all, I think that contrary to popular belief, pack structure is not linear. I don't think it goes Dog 1, then Dog 2, then Dog 3, and so on. In wild packs there is a dominant male/female pair and the rest of the dogs are middle class after that. Some have an overall lower standing, but not in a "totem poll" sort of way. What I have observed with my own dogs (this stood out more when I had three dogs, but holds true for two) is that one might be the boss of one thing, but not another. For instance, Tojo is the boss of who gets to lay on the window sill and Rakka gets first dibs of the water dish. Not that these rules are set in stone. They break the "rules" all the time and they change constantly without me knowing why or having any way to predict when they'll change.



    Another thing is that I want to be in control of the resources. If I decide to give Tojo a treat, for instance, then Rakka should respect my decision to do so. I used to always give treats to Rakka first and never feed the dogs together because I knew that Rakka would attack Tojo if he had something she didn't, but eventually, I felt like I was becoming a slave to Rakka's bossiness. I just decided that enough was enough and I taught Rakka to leave Tojo alone if he had something I'd given him. I actually used feeding them together and chewing on toys in the same room as a training exercise. I started slow by making them eat their own meals out of their dishes a few metres away from each other and worked up to being closer and incorporating higher value items. Now I can even give them something awesome like a raw marrow bone at the same time and not have a fight break out. It's improved the situation overall, too. They both respect me more. For one thing, Rakka knows that she's not in charge and has learned that she has to control her impulses and also, Tojo knows that I will protect him from Rakka, which makes him trust me more as a leader.



    I totally believe in time-outs, too. They're perfect for situations like this. For a more severe spat, I will kennel them, but I often just make the dogs split up and hold a sit-stay for thirty seconds before letting them do anything else.  Harsh corrections can aggravate them further in situations like this, whereas time-outs just force them to settle down and get their impulses under control.



    Anyway, that's just my $0.02. I want to buy the book "Feeling Outnumbered? How to Manage and Enjoy Your Multi-Dog Household."  It seems to be highly recommended.

    -Heidi, with Rakka (shikoku) and Sosuke (kai ken)
  • tsukitsunetsukitsune
    Posts: 6468


    i'm not even thinking about treats yet! oh my!!



    that book has a very inticing title right now. I'm trying to collect my thoughts and knowledge and confidence because I don't plan on Kobe being the first and last foster, or male dog, to come in our home. I think if we get a female, the interaction with Tsuki will be far more interesting to watch. We're making progress though. So far, we've been awake for 13 hours today and there have been NO fights!! yay!! they are tired as hell though, we went for a 4 hour hike this morning and played with dogs at the dog park for an hour or so, maybe they are too tired to fight?


  • I find that when a fight is about to break out, (pardon the new agey-ness) you will feel the energy shift rather dramatically. Sounds silly, but after a while you will know what I mean. There is almost a quietness that happens an instant before a dog lashes out.



    My dogs stiffen then lunge. It is lightening fast, but if you pay close attention alot of times you can nip it in the bud.



    And I agree with Brad, I keep pups seperate when I am not there to supervise, and if someone does lash out, time out is the best route.



    Moto gets sent to another room. Piglet holds stay almost perfectly so I can put her in a down and she won't leave until I release her. She will whimper but she will stay put.



    Listen to your gut though. 

  • They probably were too tired to fight. Ether that or all of the pack activities you did today helped settle things a bit (or both). In any case, being to tired to fight is ok. The more time they spend together behaving properly the better it will be for pack dynamics when they have more energy.
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 2240


    I agree with Jessica, there is an obvious change in the energy, and there is mos def a quietness, or silence right before. Its like they are sizing each other up a bit before the strike... "the silence before the storm" type of thing.



    Good points Jessica!



    ---



    Also keep in mind that all these tips apply to a "normal" dog, an "abnormal" dog - like Maui for example - doesn't necessarily play by these rules. You should consider that one of your males may not be "normal" in their behavior.



    Maui will strike with little or no warning.

  • tsukitsunetsukitsune
    Posts: 6468


    Jessica - you are SO right! yesterday we had no real fights
    but we felt that - tension - almost in the energy when Kobe and Kitsune
    were near one another during play, then that silence, then Kitsune did
    his 'battle cry' and we immediately seperated them.



    what makes Maui abnormal? poor breeding? I think my Kitsune has
    issues that catagorize him as abnormal, Kobe and Tsuki seem to play by
    similar rules and therefore have very little to argue about. They have
    a good tolerance level with each other and other dogs, yesterday at the
    dog park, Kobe was a shining star with other dogs and people and even
    annoying children trying to pet him through the fence. I hate those
    children. But Kobe seems better adjusted, just getting out of a kill
    shelter after a month!!! He did get into a little arguement with a
    cairn terrier, but she's very alpha and started it b/c he was too near
    her ball. He even passed the 'cat test' at my inlaws yesterday. He had a big day! 



    But Kitsune will stay far from people, sometimes interact with
    dogs, never aggressively and never gets into a fight at the dog
    park. But if we are there for an hour, he spends 55 mins of it in
    the back, sniffing around, watching people.



    Maybe I should start a new thread about gaining trust in a dog that clearly has an unbalanced, low confidence demeanor.

    Post edited by tsukitsune at 2008-04-22 13:07:19
  • tsukitsunetsukitsune
    Posts: 6468


    By the way - those first two days were very tough, almost difficult,
    but not impossible. All of the words and ideas and suggestions that you
    all contributed were invaluable! I feel that even if they never can
    tolerate one another, we can at least create a positive energy for a
    peaceful coexistance while Kobe is with us thanks to the mass of
    information on this forum/thread!



    We are better prepared for the next foster!  



    Thank you all so much! You have very fortunate dogs to be blessed with knowledgeable and caring owners like yourselves! Laughing I am truly grateful! 

  • kwyldkwyld
    Posts: 506


    Here is that link, check it out, it is quite interesting.



    http://www.doglistener.co.uk/language/language_canine.shtml

  • tsukitsunetsukitsune
    Posts: 6468


    that article is incredibly interesting!  wow. i'm trying this
    with Kitsune, I think he is abnormally timid and therefore resorts to
    aggressive signals when stressed. that article was SO interesting!!



    thanks again, Kelly!!  

  • diggahdiggah
    Posts: 105
    Kywld wrote:


    "I guess with a Shiba you might want to look for more stiffness in the tail because it is curled, because you are right, it is hard to tell with this breed!"



    With ours I kinda use the tail as a barometer of the dog’s mood. If he is happy it is curled up tight, but come bath time it is nearly straight. If he is playing rough with another dog and it starts to unwind, I tend to break it up and give him a time out. As long as it is curled up tight as a bun (and the other dog seems comfortable) I’ll leave them be.



    As far as gauging aggression by noise, I’m not sure if that is possible (at least with our dogs). Mochi tends to be quite but can become vocal if the other dog is vocal. I’ve seen many barks and growls exchanged during friendly play (usually because one of his playmates gets frustrated and becomes a bit yappy). A low throaty growl to an approaching animal is the obvious exception, and it’s usually accompanied by the other visual cues of aggression and/or fear.



    Of course, every animal is different and a lot of it depends on the relationships between the animals. With most of the “regular suspects” at the dog park I don’t have too hard a time gauging when play time is getting a bit too rough and it’s usually easy enough to defuse. When two unacquainted dogs have alpha issues it is another story and things can head south really fast. You’re always at an obvious disadvantage until you get to know a dog well; but the more time you spend with them the better you’ll get at understanding their temperament, their personality, and how it is expressed (both to dogs and to humans).

    Post edited by diggah at 2008-04-22 19:32:36
  • tsukitsunetsukitsune
    Posts: 6468
    2 days without incident!!! YES!
  • ljowen123ljowen123
    Posts: 3105
    WONDERFUL!!
    LJ - owned by Queen Jazz, a Shiba Inu, Atlanta, GA
    CSC_0144
  • okironokiron
    Posts: 735
    That's great!
  • RomiRomi
    Posts: 2722
    Great news! You guys must be doing something right! 
  • Way to take charge Jen! Keep up the great work. :-)
  • tsukitsunetsukitsune
    Posts: 6468


    wow. holy spoke too soon batman.



    literally 10 mins after i wrote that, i was eating an oreo at my kitchen table, Kitsune came sniffing, then the other two and all hell broke loose. I am now sitting with a large bite on my arm, swelling and a deep bleeding puncture wound. Kobe is nursing a deep bleeding bite on his arm. Our wounds are both caused by Kitsune, the bastard f/ing dog. (sorry. i'm pissed).



    John is nursing a small puncture wound on his thumb caused by Kobe when he wsa pulled from Kitsune's death grip.



    Tsuki is getting cleaned because my blood was pooring on her. Kobe faught with her too, it was a 3 way fight.



    I got injured. What the hell am I supposed to do now?. Cry

  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 2240


    This is bad, honestly I would reconsider the situation. It sounds like Kobe or Kitsune may not be normal.



    Did they bite you or were you bit while breaking it up?



    Didn't you foster a dog before? Did you not have these problems then?



    You will need to drasticly reduce your dogs freedome, imo.

  • tsukitsunetsukitsune
    Posts: 6468


    i was bit by kitsune attempting to break it up.



    we had a male foster basset w/ kitsune and had no incident.



    i think kitsune is not normal. $^(*!#!&^$*&



    they are confined to crates allllll night.

  • okironokiron
    Posts: 735
    Jennifer stop talking to us and go to the hospital! Explanations could come later!!!
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 2240


    So our dogs will bitch at each other when they are waiting in line for something, like if Hilo is eating and Ahi wants "dibs" she will be rather nasty towards any dog that look like they are "calling dibs" on Hilo's food too.



    This kinda sounds like a similar situation, someone "called dibs" on your Oreo droppings and then someone tried to cut in line and a fight broke out.



    I would venture to say Koba is the abnormal one since Kitsune never had an issue with the Basset hound... but honestly i have no idea, you may want to consider bringing in a behaviorist.

  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 2240
    I agree with Rina!
  • I agree with Brad. I know your intentions are nothing but the best, but that kind of behavior is just not safe for either you, your husband, or your dogs. At the very least, they need to be on a leash at all times so you can pull them apart without getting in the danger zone. But that is just a minimum requirement. You should probably keep them separated for the safety of all.
  • And Rina and Brad agreeing with Rina. Go to the hospital!
  • RomiRomi
    Posts: 2722
    I agree with Brad, that is pretty intense.  Your dog should NEVER bite you.  I may get shit for this, but maybe you brought in 2 dogs too soon.  I know you were trying to do a good deed by fostering and we all see you as an angel for doing it.  But when you have a foster that becomes a danger to your family and other animals, thats a whole new story.  If I remember correctly, you got Kitsune a couple months ago right?  So the basset was at your home first.  This might be the reason why Kitsune and the basset got along.  Maybe after the basset left, Kitsune felt that he needed to fill in his position and become the alpha male.  That would be the only reason to me for why he and Kobe aren't getting along.  Since it also seems that Kitsune is the one who is always starting the scruffles.  If you feel that Kobe is becoming a danger to your family and animals, I would seriously re-consider fostering him out to another home.  Just for the safety of you and your family as well as for Kobe. 
  • tsukitsunetsukitsune
    Posts: 6468


    i'm not going to hospital b/c i lack insurance but i am calling my MD tomorrown to see if i need a tetanus and for him to call in an antibiotic. the puncture stopped bleeding enough to assess. I have 11 bite marks. Only one is a deep puncture. All over an oreo???? its was double stuff, i get it.



    but my husband and i are reassessing the fostering until we can get a behavior ist for Kitsune. I truly feel he is the abnormal dog here.



    wish me luck tomorrow - hopefully my tetanus is UTD!!

  • okironokiron
    Posts: 735
    Jennifer I don't have any insurance either but ERs don't make you pay for it on the spot. There's payment plans and other alternatives. If you're like me and don't make a lot of money most hospitals have a program where you don't have to pay for anything if you provide proof of your income through tax forms, paycheck stubs, bank account statements. I'm living proof that if you leave a problem alone because you lack money, it's only gonna get worse. I've had $500 bills turn into $3500 bills.
  • hondruhondru
    Posts: 529
    Yikes, when someone actually gets bitten that's a little more serious than just tiffs.  Fostering may not be such a good idea...
    -Heidi, with Rakka (shikoku) and Sosuke (kai ken)
  • okironokiron
    Posts: 735
    How bad is Kobe's wound? Are you taking him to the vets to get it checked out?
  • scarletscarlet
    Posts: 562
    Tkuski, Kitsune is in the 'doghouse'!
  • okironokiron
    Posts: 735
    Just realized something. Is Kobe pronounced like the city in Japan or like Kobe Bryant? I've been pronouncing it like the city.
  • ljowen123ljowen123
    Posts: 3105
    WoW!  The things that happen when you go to bed early - how's the wound?
    LJ - owned by Queen Jazz, a Shiba Inu, Atlanta, GA
    CSC_0144
  • tsukitsunetsukitsune
    Posts: 6468


    we're trying to get the rescue on the phone b/c we can't take Kobe (like the city) to the vet w/o their permission when its not life threatening. Yell



    and i have to call of work for the AM to go to dr b/c my puncture is still bleeding with any acute or blunt trama to it (like flexing the muscle acute) and it might need a stitch. my mom found that i had a tetanus 7 yrs ago, so  I might need that too but my dr on call last night called in antibiotics for me to start.



    so.. what do we do about the dogs now?? i contacted rescue to get back to me about Kobe and his living situations. Poor dog, he went from stray to kill shelter to 4 hr car ride on hot day to major furminating to aggressive vibes and puncture wounds in my home. No wonder he's a door bolter. He hates us!



    Is it wrong to be a little pensive about my own dog now??

  • brandon_wbrandon_w
    Posts: 3433


    I commented in the other thread too, but neglected to point this out.  When you are breaking up a dog fight, most likely the dogs are only focused on the dog they are going after.  When you try to grab them and pull them apart, they react instinctivley because they don't think "oh who is pulling on me" they think "I'm getting attacked from behind too" and they retaliate.  My wife and I have both been bit my Nemo at the dog park in situations like this, but never to the degree that you recieved, not even close.



    It's ok to be pensive around Kitsune, he broke your trust, but he is over it already, it's in the past. 



    Kobe needs to absolutely be kept in seperate room at all times until he is out of the house.  Kitsune should be put in his crate when you need to walk Kobe to the door to go outside.

  • I agree with everything that Brandon has said in both threads. I want to reiterate that keeping them leashed at all times will allow you to break things up from a distance without putting yourself in a position where you can get bit.
  • Actually, it just occurred to me that Kitsune may be "protecting his female" which may be some of the cause of your problems. Have you noticed if these fights tend to occur when Tsuki is around or not? Could it be that Kobe looks at her and Kitsune gets pissed?
  • tsukitsunetsukitsune
    Posts: 6468


    Tsuki is always in the middle when there is a fight - but never fights.



    How odd. Good point, Dave. Why would he care to defend her?

  • Not so much defend as establish ownership. Kind of "she's mine back off"
  • scarletscarlet
    Posts: 562
    You may also be his female???

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