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  • I live when Shibas do mouth wrestling
    Fred and Jodie...Madison WI

    **Mika....The Shiba Inu**

    **Zoey....The Schipperke**
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    Since I saw that there is discussion on the other play thread I thought I would bump this one too because there are more good video and picture examples on it. I liked this thread a lot when I first introduced my second dog and had this type of mouthy play occurring almost 24/7.
  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 3495
    Bump~~

    Example of Shiba vs other breed play. (Jackie is my shihtzu mix)

    image

    image

    This happens quite often when Jackie does her version of the Shiba 500 (a.k.a Jackie 500). Kindly note Jackie was not harmed in anyway and enjoyed the chase from Bootz ;) The fact that she's so small triggers Bootz prey drive, but Bootz always remember its her little sister she is chasing.

    @curlytails, ITS A FLEXI! Amagawd :))
    Post edited by Bootz at 2014-02-24 15:19:10
  • @Bootz OMG you too??? ;)

    We're looking at the tuft of fur hanging off Bootz' chin, right? Shiba 500s don't make her grow whiskers, I assume...

    image
    Bowdu 寶肚 (Shiba) and Bowpi 寶媲 (Basenji) with M.C.
  • I worry about Oki's play. He literally never mouths humans. Ever. But he tries desperately to get other dogs to jaw spar with him. Mostly, they don't want to and he's happy to just run around with them. He is fine at puppy class. He plays quite well, but he's still a right terror to my parents cockerpoo who doesn't really like other dogs. Oki will get barked/growled at, the other dog will turn away/go still/run away etc but Oki will not take the hint and back off so I have to intervene. Trouble is, if I call Oki off, and he does come, both dogs come! Then Oki seems to take this as a signal that the other dog is ok with him but I can see his body language screaming "get this repulsive puppy away from me!" I wish the other dog would tell him off properly. The trainer at puppy class said I have to basically finish off the message of "back off" that other dog can't by just holding him off until he calms down. I did this last time I was there and it seemed to work but it seems like this is a bit of an aversive training technique which I don't like. Silly boisterous shibe!
  • zandramezandrame
    Posts: 1106
    @Nahatalie, if you are teaching Oki "off" or "leave it," you can use that when he gets too rambunctious. Redirect him to some other activity instead or reward with treats. If you call them and they both come, do an impromptu training session while you have their attention. Sits, downs, etc.

    As long as you aren't using punishment (hitting or rolling) when you separate Oki, holding him back until he calms down is perfectly fine. However, since he's a puppy, he might feel frustrated, so diversions may work better.

    In general though, if Oki keeps bothering the other dog, it's not nice to keep putting them together. Oki is only going to get bigger, and the other dog may have to escalate his responses to get his point across, and a fight could occur. So keep that in mind.
  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 3495
    @curlytails

    LOL! Yeah "whiskers" I freaked out the first time when Bootz did that, but they kept playing so ;) I guess Jackie is fine with a little hair pulled out during their game of tag.

    We need another FF meet up! I miss Bowdu and Bowpi!
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    Like Zandrame said it might escalate as Oki gets older and the cocker/poodle had enough.

    Telling a dog off some do it fine, but some will get bit more harsh on message. Shiba pup might take it as play or challenge to wrestle or resist..

    Dink my 15 year old catahoula mix she is old has arthritis. She is pretty tolerant. Saya was relentless with her she was always wagging her tail biting Dink's legs to try get her to play and chase her or something.

    Dink being old doesn't move like she used to. She would try to reprimand Saya, but It went over her head and she kept at it.

    If I notice Saya annoying Dink I'd get her attention and have her play with a toy with me or call Bella my parent's boxer to play with her or take her outside to walk off some energy.

    Photobucket
    Nicole, 5year old Bella(Boxer), and 4year old Saya(Shiba inu)
    Post edited by Saya at 2014-02-25 07:55:40
  • I do think that at the moment it's just play, and unfortunately the cockerpoo is completely indifferent to other dogs and doesn't want to play. Meanwhile, Oki is being persistent. I guess this is partly shiba stubborness and partly just energetic yet rude puppy behaviour. I hope we don't have to keep the dogs apart in the future! At the moment we only get them together less than once a week for a couple of hours. I'm sad that Oki is such an idiot when it comes to this particular dog. I wonder why it's just him? And I wonder if I can train him to ignore this particular dog? It's the only thing Oki does that I find disappointing. In pretty much every other way, he's been a great pup so far! (I know...he's not gone through the terrible teenage months/years yet...but for now at least, he's great. Just not with this dog!)
  • catloreecatloree
    Posts: 1541
    Here's another example of crazy Shiba play:



    A lot of owners think Elwood is trying to fight when he's really just playing. I think it's partly because of the horrible noises he makes + the neck grabbing. It's always fun watching 2 Shibas play, they really *get* each other's play style!
    Catherine (human), Elwood (Shiba), & Sadie (Pomeranian)
  • devonmlewisdevonmlewis
    Posts: 182
    I can't see any of the videos right now (work computer), but I forwarded the link to myself so I can see all of the videos and pictures when I get home. This thread is SO HELPFUL! I am still learning the difference between too rough of play and just normal shiba play. It's very off putting when Yuki tries to engage in play (he's 3 months old).

    He does a lot of posturing (wants to be on top even though he's still pretty small). He also is a REALLY big communicator through barking. I'm unsure of whether this is him saying "leave me alone I don't like yoU!" or "I want to play so I'm barking loudly in your face". Haha. It seems like rude puppy behavior to me, and am unsure of whether I should tell him to stop.
  • devonmlewisdevonmlewis
    Posts: 182
    Ok I've looked at these-- I know that hands down this will be my biggest puppy parenting obstacle. I want Yuki to have friends, but I need to do two things: 1. Distinguish the difference in his play and "rude" behaviors aka attacking other dogs, and 2. Being comfortable and calm while he's learning to play. These videos make me uncomfortable to watch and I KNOW that they are playing and having fun! So I need to RELAX, and that is going to be a huge challenge.

    @curlytails video with the white dog-- that looks kind of like bullying behavior to me-- because the white dog is trying to get away and looking for an escape/exit strategy. And the posturing/body language of both dogs don't really look incredibly playful to me.
  • curlytailscurlytails
    Posts: 2779
    @devonmlewis I think they were okay, or at least trying to figure it out, until Bowdu started nipping at the Samoyed's back legs. But yeah, when she ran off, it was clearly time for the one-sided play to stop (hence, footage stopped).

    Suffice to say, Bowdu isn't the most popular dog at the park. And that's one of the parks we don't go to anymore, because he doesn't really have many options there except to interact with other dogs, and that's not really his thing.
    image
    Bowdu 寶肚 (Shiba) and Bowpi 寶媲 (Basenji) with M.C.
  • devonmlewisdevonmlewis
    Posts: 182
    I agree @curlytails. Trying to figure it out. Because your shiba wasn't aggressive toward any of the animals (I didn't see Bowdu do that-- but I believe you). :)

    I hope that Yuki will one day be the dog that other dogs look forward to playing with. Just because I can't see it right now doesn't mean I will lose faith or stop trying! He's only been with us for a month, and this thread helped me SO much with hope. I"m going to try to watch these videos on the daily to up my comfort level-- Yuki doesn't need my stressed energy while he's trying to make friends!

    So Bowdu isn't really into other dogs? Does he have any friends that he can play with, or is he content just doing his own thing? THis is something I worry about with Yuki-- that he's missing out on a piece of happiness (so dramatic-- I know!) because he doesn't have any real friends yet.
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    Bowdu has Bowpi a basenji. :) check out Curlytails blog it's on the pic in the signature.

    Lots fun stuff to read in that blog.
    Photobucket
    Nicole, 5year old Bella(Boxer), and 4year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • curlytailscurlytails
    Posts: 2779
    @devonmlewis Boy, I could write a whole pamphlet on Bowdu's antisocial nature... I think it's a combination of temperament and socialization. He was most likely removed from his litter too young, he was not socialized enough as a puppy (chalk that one up to clueless first-time dog owners, *raise hand*), and he's a Shiba. >:) His natural play style is already rough to begin with -- very physical, butt-bumping, LOTS and lots of mouthing. Combine that with lack of practice with other compatible dogs and his confusing vocalizations, and well, I can count the number of dogs he's ever been able to play with over the past 9 years on one hand. And usually not for more than a few minutes at a time.

    And yeah, at least he has Bowpi the Basenji. ;) They live together and it's a good combo, in part because she's so tolerant of his antics. But honestly, they don't play that much together, because they don't have very compatible play styles. He likes to wrestle, and she prefers to chase. Over the years, she has actually tried to meet him on his terms -- she'll actually reach out and try to "box" him, Basenji style. But then he comes in and buttchecks and she feels quickly overpowered.

    Here's a low quality vid from 3 years ago. Bowdu is so very awkward in his attempts to instigate play.



    Take that video as an example of malfunctioning Shiba play? =)

    It's taken them years to figure each other out, and they live together. The casual dog we encounter at the park, even the regulars, have a steep learning curve in figuring out my weird Shiba.
    image
    Bowdu 寶肚 (Shiba) and Bowpi 寶媲 (Basenji) with M.C.
    Post edited by curlytails at 2014-03-18 14:33:29
  • devonmlewisdevonmlewis
    Posts: 182
    @curlytails Yuki is a butt bumping champion! He does it to all potential friends, the cairn he lives with and when he comes in for attention from humans! He rubs on them like a cat and then butt bumps them. Like a little gentleman. :)

    Yuki has a soft mouth, but is still learning with other dogs. It's unforunate that I've become so uncomfortable that I don't allow him to naturally learn with other dogs what is appropriate and too rough. I'm working on it, though! His dad/my husband may have to help me with this piece of puppy parenting.

    Koa (old cairn) and Yuki are still figuring each other out. Koa wants to be around him, even though Yuki keeps coming for him (biting on and not letting go), but doesn't really want to play with him, which is confusing to Yuki. They definitely need to be monitored 24/7, which we are working on, and learning to how facilitate positive interaction between the two.

    I can't see any of the videos at work- but I'll check it out at home for sure! :) ANd I'll check out your blog, too! :)
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    Butt bumping I love how shiba do that. saya doesn't, but she has a spinal health issue so she isn't into doing that like other shiba I met. Saya loves jaw sparing and playing chase. She loves playing chase she'll pick up a toy in hopes to get Bella to chase her or she'll bite her leg to initiate chase.

    She no longer does the leg bite as Bella would just ignore her she learned grabbing a random toy was enough to get Bella excited for play.
    Photobucket
    Nicole, 5year old Bella(Boxer), and 4year old Saya(Shiba inu)
    Post edited by Saya at 2014-03-19 11:04:48
  • Did you guys notice shiba's "not getting it" with "wrinkly dogs"?

    What I mean by that.... some breeds have a LOT of wrinkles. Since dog's learn bite inhibition and "that is enough" by the reaction of their playmates, its easy with labs and golden retrievers, but tough with shar-peis and bull dogs because you can pull their wrinkles and they don't notice. Then, the owners think my 6 month old puppy is being mean or playing too rough. I don't think my guy is being rough. I think he is playing. Or is my guy just a nutcase?

    He'll pull on the skin/wrinkles of those dogs, but never does on "normal" breeds like huskies, labs, mutts, etc.

    has anyone else experienced this?
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    Saya nipped Bella our boxer's lips posted pics on first page. She no longer does that now.
    Photobucket
    Nicole, 5year old Bella(Boxer), and 4year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 8584
    @BanjoTheBetaDog - Any time the other dog or dog's owner(s) seem concerned about Shiba play style, then it is your responsibility to stop the play, even if it seems normal to you.

    Shibas DO play rough and a lot of other dogs (and/or their owners) do not appreciate it.

    If your puppy has not been socialized with dogs that have droopy jowls or wrinkles on their faces, they may not understand how to play with them and grab the skin. Puppy teeth are sharp and can cause damage (see @Saya's post about her puppy and her boxer). The best bet is to stop the play if the other owner or dog seems uncomfortable.
    Bella 2Mountains 2Nola 2
    Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia.
    I Wander, I Ride
  • Yeah, as much as I hate it, I have to separate them. Outside of correction from another dog, I don't know how he will learn otherwise though. I am trying to show him EVERYTHING in hopes that when he is an adult he won't be thrown off by anything. The wrinkly dog play thing is tough =/


  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 8584

    Outside of correction from another dog, I don't know how he will learn otherwise though.



    By stopping the play session when he exhibits rude behaviour, you are essentially teaching him that if he does that (whatever the behaviour may be), then playtime stops. But you have to make sure you time it right and just like everything else, it takes time.
    Bella 2Mountains 2Nola 2
    Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia.
    I Wander, I Ride
  • Do I train it like I would a "time out" for accidental skin contact? Meaning stop play for x seconds and then let them play again? Or is it literally stop play time altogether?

    (Assume the other owner doesn't mind and the other dogs don't mind if play restarts)
    Post edited by BanjoTheBetaDog at 2014-03-20 09:02:43
  • StaticNfuzzStaticNfuzz
    Posts: 1814
    Interesting and helpful footage above : )

    The dvd DOG Play by behaviorist Patricia McConnell is worthy and she is an excellent speaker. http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/store/Dog-Play.html

    Look around online, I believe the dvd can be purchased for a bit less, or even rented http://www.bowwowflix.com/search.php

    Success is knowing when to interrupt “play” if both dogs are not having a good time (or before exhaustion sets in for the rowdy set), and way before the non participating/disinterested dog decides to lash out or latches on to the potential playmates face in frustration. It’s always best to be safe than sorry. Too many poor experiences and it sets up future play for disaster and makes many dogs isolationists.

    Snf
    Post edited by StaticNfuzz at 2014-03-20 18:22:35
  • Yeah, the shar-pei puppy at the dog park (I think he is 8 months old?) can't seem to get enough. After every separation, both dogs give very disapproving looks to the humans. Banjo play bows, the shar-pei puts up one paw (which google says is a play invite by both dogs) and they go back at it. The other human and I have come up with a game wherein we play fetch but have the dogs take turns going to get the ball (i.e. Shar-pei gets the ball and drops it near me, I throw the ball while banjo gets it and shar-pei stays) we repeat this until its water break time. Its been a good training exercise on things like "stay" in a high stimulus environment. Its quite easy with 2 dogs having the park to ourselves.

    @StaticNfuzz The link for the bowwowflix looks amazing and I am going to go shopping during my lunch break!! My accountant probably won't approve =)

    Thank you!!

  • NahatalieNahatalie
    Posts: 363
    It is nice to come back to this thread from to time to time and be reassured it's just the way Shibas play. Rough! He has a friend at puppy agility who loves jaw sparring with him. It's an English Shepherd and they get along great. They're matched in play style but the Shepherd is massive compared to Oki and he does get bowled over, and this doesn't put Oki off in the slightest. Infact, the Shepherd even mouthed him a bit too much a couple of times making Oki squeak slightly. Even that didn't deter him!

    As for my parents cockerpoo, Oki seems to be getting better at leaving him alone. He still has a little go at attempting to get Ozzy to jaw spar by going up to him with an open mouth every now and then but he's not as insistent. We call him the crocodile lol. In fact, recently he appears not to even touch Ozzy with his mouth much anymore at all, just waves his open gob in poor Ozzy's face fpr a few seconds to invite a jaw spar then goes away again. I still pull him away if I feel he's in a persistent mood but I think he's definitely getting better.
  • devonmlewisdevonmlewis
    Posts: 182
    I don't think I'm to the point (at ALL) where I"m comfortable with Yuki jaw sparring with another dog. I'm still learning what aggression looks like vs play. Yesterday my parent's cairn went on a walk with Yux, and when he saw Yuki at the park he ran to him all excited (too cute). Yuki started "playing" with him, jumping ontop of him and being mouthy, making crazy noises. It was ok though! If I wouldn't have read through these threads or watched the videos of play, he may never have made any physical contact with a dog. LOL. We are working on things, though! :)
  • RenRenRenRen
    Posts: 6
    Thank you to those who posted videos of their Shibas playing. I was a little concerned about the way Mango plays with our other dog, a shepherd, b/c they both get pretty rough when they play. Their roughhousing looks a lot like the one seen in Marije's video (earlier in the thread). It's good to know that the mouthing and growling is part of the breed's "normal" play behavior, as Mango can get very mouthy sometimes too.

    However, one thing I noticed about Mango is that she likes to nip at our shepherd's heels when she's chasing after him. Is this normal/acceptable behavior? The reason why I'm worried about this is because I don't want her to develop a habit of nipping at people's heels if they're running. If this isn't an acceptable behavior, do you guys have any tips on stopping it?
  • enzo_inuenzo_inu
    Posts: 32
    I'm a little confused... I know I read the threads of shibas playing rough and im reading all of these posts but all the shibas that my pup has met so far have all been really really calm and when he gets too close they start growling at him. All their owners start to pull their shibas away and say "he/shes never acted like that before!"

    He is great with other biggers dogs but I would love for him to be able to play with other shibas but im not sure what the issue is??
  • curlytailscurlytails
    Posts: 2779
    @enzo_inu Your puppy is about 5 months old now, if I'm correct? My older male Shiba would probably growl at your pup. And I'd pull him away too, because yes, he has acted like that with Shiba pups about 5 months to 2~3 years.

    I've found that my Shiba is generally not very tolerant of other young Shibas, a change that happened as he matured, hitting right about 3 years old. This change comes as a surprise to many owners (as evidenced on this forum). I actually kind of dread it when people run up to me with their Shibas in tow, excited to meet Bowdu. Pouncing on us like that is precisely the way to get him to react badly. Not that I'm saying you do this, but the approach is something to be generally aware of.

    As the human at the other end of the leash, it seems more important to us that they have the opportunity to play with their own kind. If that's what you want, I would suggest making an effort to find Shibas that are known to be tolerant, or pups of a similar age.
    image
    Bowdu 寶肚 (Shiba) and Bowpi 寶媲 (Basenji) with M.C.
  • enzo_inuenzo_inu
    Posts: 32
    @curlytails yes, he is 5 months now... the other shibas that i've met have all been pups themselves from about his age to 1 1/2. I took him to a shiba meet and he did alright. he went and played with a couple but they were still a bit calmer then him. There was only one that was 1 1/2 that played really rough with him and he loved it! But all the other shibas that he's meet outside of that meet have all been around his age. I understand that older shibas have matured more and dont like pups jumping in their face. very very understandable.

    Ill usually hold on to his leash tighter as he gets up to the other shiba and let them sniff each other out and once the owner asks questions or gets their dog to get closer to enzo i loosen the leash on him but thats when the dog will immediatley start growling at him and then the owner pulls back and then basically leaves... :/ I would love for him to get along with other shibas but i'm not sure what the problem is.
  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 3495
    @enzo_inu

    Don't think you got curlytails message. At this point, there is no "problem". She's just stating that Shibas grow intolerant of puppies as they age. I concur as I introduced my cousins boston terrier puppy to my VERY MELLOW and PASSIVE shiba, and she wasn't having it. She gave her a couple growls and did a correcting nip.

    Your best bet is to try to find other shiba owners with shibas that are tolerant of puppies.
  • @bootz and @curlytails

    can enough socialization help combat the "growing intolerant" part? Or will it not matter? I.e. am I wasting the $400 a month I spend sending him to a trainer daily for socialization? If he is gonna hate other dogs anyways, I'd rather spend the money on something else.

  • INU RYUUINU RYUU
    Posts: 1507
    @banjothebetadog

    I socialized the heck out of both my Shiba. My girl was intolerant from the beginning always growling at other dogs and my boy was a social butterfly. He became intolerant of new dogs and she can't care less. I still continue to socialize them and they have their "friends" who they play with and get along fine with.

    The only problem that I encounter is that other dog owners mistakingly perceive Shiba play style as aggression.
    犬竜
  • @inu ryuu

    Your boy sounds like mine. He MUST meet and play with every dog. I hope that with all this the worst that will happen as an adult is he ignores other dogs. I just want to prevent dog re activity/aggression.

    Sorry to take thread off topic =)

  • curlytailscurlytails
    Posts: 2779
    @Bootz Yes, succinctly put.

    @enzo_inu As for other young puppies similar to Enzo's age who are still growling at him, it's hard to say without actually being there. The other owner could be doing things to encourage the growling, like tightening the leash as Enzo approaches. Bowdu is sometimes more put off by other dogs straining on leashes leaning into his face, and it can be even more tense if he is also on leash -- who knows? Generally, I regard growling as a good thing because that is the dog clearly communicating his preferences. We would do well to heed those messages. (Relevant: check out this post.)

    @BanjoTheBetaDog I don't think any of us can say at this point whether or not Banjo will become dog intolerant. Lots to factor in -- a combination of genetics and socialization. Basically, it doesn't surprise me at all when a Shiba matures into a dog snob, but it's not exactly a foregone conclusion. I think knowing the temperaments of the parents and related dogs can be the best general indication (going beyond just taking what the breeder claims about their sweet dogs). Most of us don't have that kind of access to extended relatives, so we do best with what we have. Those genetics will always be there, but socialization is a continuous, dynamic process. Play is an essential part of it, even well into adulthood.

    This thread hasn't really addressed how dog play styles changes over a lifespan. What I have found is that the nature of play can change as well. Over the years, Bowdu's play preferences have moved away from other dogs (he never showed much inclination to play with other dogs anyway) to humans, toys, nature. Some people blend play into sporting events. Continue to observe your own and other dogs, and hopefully you'll find what works best for your own situation.
    image
    Bowdu 寶肚 (Shiba) and Bowpi 寶媲 (Basenji) with M.C.
  • enzo_inuenzo_inu
    Posts: 32
    @bootz I did understand what @curlytails was trying to say... my concern was more with puppies more his age. I understand that dogs that are older are less tolerant of puppies because they are EVERYWHERE. lol I am happy that the older dogs would/will put Enzo in his place. I think thats a good way for him to learn his boundaries. i'm just really suprised that the pups his age are so calm and collected... but I think that @curlytails might be right.. .maybe its because they are both on leashes.. maybe it would be different if they werent?

    @banjothebetadog that is a ton of money to spend for socialization! Enzo is really friendly so maybe I just lucked out but maybe just bringing him to more parks and meeting a lot of ppl would be beneficial for him instead of spending so much money? But I guess the better question would be, is the training actually helping him?

    @curlytails i appreciate your input!
  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 3495
    @enzo_inu

    Dogs that are older aren't intolerant of puppies because they are everywhere, they are NOT everywhere. I think the reason why they get intolerant is because they don't want to deal with the puppies lack of manners and would rather stay away then teach them. Well that is my shiba anyways.

    Curlytails mentioned great points about intolerance with age. I honestly think it's better to socialize the heck out of your shiba, so that he MIGHT not grow intolerant, instead of jumping ship without knowing.
  • @enzo_inu

    Where I live, a dog walker costs about $300 to come m-f for the month. Those are usually solo walks and about 20 minutes. I must hire a walker given my work schedule.

    For the extra $100 a month, the trainer walks him for minimum an hour with other dogs who he makes sure get along with each other and my dog. He also rotates the play groups so the dogs get to make lots of friends. Not the same one over and over. Sometimes he takes them for 2-4 hours to play and socialize at the bank, Home Depot, etc, and he sends me videos on things him and banjo do so we are both using the same commands and processes for correction. When I see the trainer on Saturday randomly, banjo greets him with love. It's costly, but I don't want my dog to miss out on socialization every day. I always introduce him to new people and dogs and take him to the park if the trainer doesn't. The problem is I can walk him and take him to the park for 3-4 days without once seeing another dog. This ensures banjo gets the lessons he needs... Or as the trainer puts it "let's the dog be a dog".

    I think it helps. I've never seen banjo get mad with other dogs and I've never seen another dog get more mad than necessary (I.e he accepts correction from other dogs). I know it makes me sound lazy but it's the only way I know how to make sure no day is wasted when it comes to socialization.


    Post edited by BanjoTheBetaDog at 2014-04-08 17:01:03
  • enzo_inuenzo_inu
    Posts: 32
    @banjothebetadog have you tried hiring the walker for one month and then skipping the next? maybe doing that back n forth for a couple months might give you an idea of where he's really at with socializing and if he really NEEDS the walker? i'm not sure where you are at but we have dog parks or dog friendly beaches which is quite nice. Do you not have any in your area?

    I work an 8-5 m-f so unfortunately Enzo has to be by himself during that time. Instead of keeping him in a crate i just keep in inside of a pen. in the beginning i would drive home from work to see if he is okay and if he needs to go out... I slowly came a bit later and later to see if he is okay and he has been perfectly fine. he is able to hold it during the whole time and the whole time during the night. I honestly wouldnt suggest it for all dogs but it has worked for him. maybe thats an option for you and when you get home you can just take him out and try to find some place with other dogs?
  • JuniJuni
    Posts: 1269
    I think you are doing the right thing @banjothebetadog with the dog walker. Especially for making Banjo's day a bit more entertaining. It is not all about how long you can leave the dog to hold it but the quality of life you are offering your dog.

    Juni is fine with other dogs as long as she has a bit of space, she goes to doggy day care so she is used to be with a group of dogs and she is happy to walk together with any other dogs. But she still doesn't like when unknown dogs run up to her, unless they read her and are polite and careful. Sometimes she has fun and plays with new dogs and sometimes not. I just think Shibas are just not that crazy social like some other breeds that they have the need to greet and play with every dog they see.
  • enzo_inuenzo_inu
    Posts: 32
    @juni certainly i wasn't suggesting that the importance of his post was how long he can hold it but to give him another possible option so he is not spending so much money so hopefully no one took it that way! Spending $300 for a dog to be walked once a day for 20 mins does not sound like money well spent i think i would rather wait those 20 extra mins and wait til i get home to take him out and play with him. the extra $100 to socialize the pup is def. understandable but i'm not sure if that has to be on top of the $300 or if it can be separated.
    Post edited by enzo_inu at 2014-04-09 00:55:13
  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 8584
    @enzo_inu - I think it is important to remind people that just because a dog CAN hold it for 8-10 hours a day does not mean that it SHOULD nor does it mean that it is healthy for the dog to do so.

    For a lot of people $300 per month to ensure that their dogs are healthy, happy, and stimulated is absolutely money well spent. Adding another $100 on top of that to have someone who (hopefully) is using positive methods to train and socialize the dog on top of what I already do is pretty much a bargain, if you ask me.

    And while dogs are not humans, I would challenge any of you who think it is okay for your dog to hold it all day to spend a day (9-10 hours) sitting around doing nothing (no reading, no watching TV, no puzzles/games, sleeping and drinking water is okay) without getting up to use the restroom. It is tough and not healthy. Dogs just do not have a method of complaining, so you do not know how hard it is on their body to spend an entire day without eliminating.

    (It should be noted that I realize that not everyone has an extra $300-$400 per month of expendable income. However, I think it is important to remember that just because a dog can spend the whole day by itself without having an accident, does not necessarily mean they should. Especially on a daily basis.)
    Bella 2Mountains 2Nola 2
    Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia.
    I Wander, I Ride
  • @enzo_inu

    I have a friend walk Banjo in the am around 11 or so (3 hrs after I leave for work). He works from home and does this service in exchange for a "help yourself" to my kitchen. I would always feed my friends anyway if they were hungry so its no skin off my back (although he occasionally complains about the flavor of ice cream in my freezer which is annoying since I ask him to tell me what flavor he wants and he says "whatever"). The 2:30 pm walk is done by the trainer. I could ask my buddy to do both, but I don't like putting the constraint on his time especially since he won't let me pay him. I thought about doing a dog walker on the days he simply can't, but a la cart the walks are $20-$25 each and I would probably get to $300 pretty quickly anyways.

    @sunyata

    You would LOVE this trainer. He ONLY does positive reinforcement, and turns away anyone who wants a shock collar or similar. He will muzzle an aggressive dog but that's about it. He temperament tested banjo for 20 minutes (or less) and interviewed me for 2 hours before agreeing to let me be his client. He is a certified everything (at least that's what his card says). Now that Banjo is food motivated (happened after his fixing) we have started click training and I LOVE it (I can teach tricks remotely like sit. Now he will sit if I give him the command from 10 feet away whereas before I had to be near him). He still gets told no, or uh-uh, or if I really mean business a loud "hey" and he gets the message.

    I don't mind spending money on my dog's happiness, but I refuse to WASTE money on it. After @sunyata comment on "imagine sitting at home for 10 hours", I realized that its not a waste even if he does end up hating other dogs as I know every day he gets to do something fun with his friends and a trainer/staff who love him.



  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    Bumping this up since new members here.. :)

    Photobucket
    Nicole, 5year old Bella(Boxer), and 4year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • RooneyRooney
    Posts: 142
    This is the most I've seen Rooney play so far:

    https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152677060678187&set=vb.514153186&type=2&theater&notif_t=video_comment


    I like to think the increase in playing is a sign that he's getting more comfortable/secure in his new home. :) Still, he seems to be saving his play time for home rather than the dog park where he mostly just stands around and looks at the dogs that try to play with him like they're nuts.
    Allison, Rooney's Mom
  • Winston's only 10 weeks so he can't have play time with other dogs yet, but the only time he's tried to bite/mouth wrestle with us is when we were playing with toys and he accidentally got our hands. We either yelp or say "no" and give him his toy to chew on and he's fine.

    He also loves to work himself up while playing so much he starts flipping himself over while trying to attack his toys. He does tend to get out of sorts after playing and doing the Shiba 500 around the house for a while; he's tired but still wants to play, so he'll try to chew his toys but will just mouth at them while flipping around. Silly puppy fighting his naps because he thinks he's missing out on something.

    The only problem I have with him is when I take him outside because he keeps chasing and eating the leaves! I know it's fun for him but I'm afraid it's bad for him to eat them... I try to get them out of his mouth as soon as he picks them up, but he manages to get little bits of them anyway.
  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 3495
    @willgraham

    Your puppy can play with other dogs as long as you know they are fully vaccinated. You should socialize your shiba ASAP
  • Kira_KiraKira_Kira
    Posts: 2482
    I agree with Bootz, take your Shiba to as many new places as possible, especially strange people. It doesn't matter whether or not dogs are around, they need to be exposed to the world.
    Cynthia, Proudly owned by Kira
    imageimage
    Kira the Cream Shiba Inu 吉良 - Facebook Page
    Follow Kira on Instagram! Kira_the_cream_shiba_inu
    Kira's Life Story & Photo Thread - Chronicles of Kira

    “Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole.”

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