Everyone has their theories and some believe dogs are purely carnivore, omnivore etc.
Wolves will eat ripe apples. One pack has been observed doing this I might have to ask the staff at wolf park to explain it to me..
There's various types of raw diets, prey model, BARF, Frenkinprey, and pre made which ranges from barf or prey model..
I lean towards a mix I feel 80% meat/ 10% bone/ 5% liver/ and 5% other organs like kidney, spleen, pancreas, thymus, testee etc. and muscle meat organs like heart, tongue, lung, and various other things..
I seen a few coyote kill sites in my 10 years of living in this area.. My descriptions are of this. I mostly see fur all on the ground, sometimes there's a leg stripped of it's meat and a bit of fur on the foot.
I been seeing what I surmise rabbit stomach contents on the grass with a bit of fur around the area, my guess the coyote only ate the stomach lining of it and squeezed the contents out.
I wished I had gotten a picture of it.. Also could have happen the coyote left the stomach and wasps ate the flesh of the stomach.. You'll see what I mean with the pictures.
I've seen some left overs where there's a bit of fur, intestines, and stomach still has contents in it I seen it four times out of the 10 years I lived here.
I've come upon a whole bunny left in the high grass my guess saving for later or I came upon the coyote and it ran off before I saw him/her second walk the rabbit was moved.
I seen kills for there's fur around and the head.
I finally took extra effort and walked to the remains without the dogs.
Here's my pictures. Hope they're not too gross.
My guess the intestines this what we came upon first.
Few feet away from last picture we came up on this the head, stomach and some more intestines.
Close up of the head there's bit of fur of the nose there. See the wasps feasting on the flesh on the skull I can't eat a hamburger or anything with meat without them pestering me.. >.<<br />
This is the stomach I believe dunno how old this remains is..
Here's Saya's rabbit she caught herself poor thing was already dead by the time I told her to drop it. Which she did as soon as I said too. I froze it for a month then fed to her.
Saya ate everything, but the intestines.. Once she broke into the chest cavity she grabbed and pulled the stomach out and once it was semi out of the rabbit she wouldn't touch it at all so I pulled it along with intestines and then offered it to her she turned her nose like she does when I give her something she hates.
I go throw the stomach and intestines in the high grass and she resumed eating the rabbit.
I know of another raw feeder who gives her dog whole rabbit she gets off a supplier. He always avoids the stomach and sometimes squeezes the contents out and just eat the stomach.
I also know some raw dog feeders who's dog's eat everything even the intestines.
When I feed Saya whole quail I got off hare-today.com she eats the quails stomach and intestines though one time she did eat the stomach, but pulled the intestines out and dropped it on the ground didn't want to eat it at all.
I guess depends on the dog.
I wanted to make this thread to express my theories, findings and thoughts.. I hope to not cause much trouble or arguments.
I'm not against giving dogs fruits and veggies or Barf diet. I'm not a fan of vegitarian diets I believe dogs need meat maybe veggie diet is needed due to a medical issue, but for a healthy dog? No Thank You..
Here's Saya's meal today morning chicken foot and a mix of my own home made wet dog food.. It's four cans sardines, one cane tuna, three boiled eggs, cooked carrots, broccoli, cabbage, roman lettuce, apple, and blueberries all well cooked and blended. I also added three caned oysters in it and cranimal vibe a supplement that has cranberry, seaweed meal, and spirulina only supplement I give besides vitamin E and cranimal very berry..
Saya does enjoy fruits like peaches, pears, apples, blueberries, raspberries, mango, and banana.
She doesn't like too many veggies and I'd have to hide the veggies in ground meat to get her to eat it if I gave it to hear everyday.
She likes cooked carrots, broccoli, zucchini, and Brussels sprouts she only likes tiny bit if she doesn't want anymore she won't eat it.
I do notice in her poop that she had the cooked well grounded especially ones where she had carrots her poop still has carrots in it and it doesn't look too digested..
Since Saya is raw fed I never pick her poop up except in public or in other people's yards places besides Saya's poop spot.
She only poops in a area far where no one really goes so I let it sit. I haven't picked it up in the two soon to be three years she has been on raw. Her poop will degrade much quicker compared to Bella's kibble poop. It turns white and crumbly after a few days or weeks depends on the weather and how much bone she had in her last meal.
This week Saya has been getting the caned fish, veggie, fruit mix and her poop that is starting to degrade has orange carrot pieces..
I feel fruits and veggies are more as a treat then a main part of her diet.
Each owner has different opinions it's up to us to research and figure out what works best for our dogs.
I find raw works for Saya so I stick to it I'm lucky to be near enough to my pet carnivore and farmers who raise grass fed/free ranged animals.
I do agree certain fruits are good has antioxidants etc. That's why I give cranimal very berry and vibe and sometimes gives her blueberries and raspberries.
I've also read some veggies or most can aggravate arthritis, but not enough has gone on to be conclusive no major study has been done on it.. Though one raw feeder just stopped giving veggies because their old dog was getting worse and once they stopped giving veggies the dog did better.
Hope this didn't offend anyone thought this would be good for people to discuss their thoughts on if dogs are carnivore or omnivore etc.
I feel dogs are carnivore with inclinations to eat fruits and veggies if needed..
Anyways there's a lot of things where people compare wolves to dogs, but sometimes maybe it's not best to? or only a little with it?
Yeah dogs are from wolves, but they're also different in so many ways.
Kibble has only been around for so long before people fed their dog's homecooked meals, table scraps, scraps from the deer the hunter got, scraps from the butcher, and so on..
Sure diet of chicken and rice is good for dogs with upset tummies I do same thing if Saya has upset stomach I get a chicken thigh or drumstick out and feed that to Saya I also de skin it so it's even more bland. Seems work well for Saya she hasn't had much tummy issues, but once she had watery poop due to transitioning to new item too quickly so next day she fasted her breakfast and dinner got a drumstick.
Then next day she was better I gave her a chicken drumstick for breakfast and went back to normal in dinner time.
I also done chicken and rice with my last dogs too which worked good. I think I'd prefer sweet potatoes and chicken than rice..
I don't think grains are bad though long as it's whole and natural..
I prefer to feed raw or if raw wasn't possible home cooked. It's extra work, but I feel it's worth it plus I know exactly what she is getting each meal.
I dunno if it's best to use coyotes and wolves as examples on how dogs should be trained or eat, but I do feel dogs can survive on a all raw diet just fine..
One show I saw it followed these two male wolves that got chased out of their pack on their own fending for themselves the older wolf went to a farm and ate grapes the same farm had chickens too, but the wolf went for the grapes which who knows maybe he felt it was a easier meal.. Grapes are not good for dogs so dunno.. I always see people on forums that give their dogs grapes when told it's not good they always say their dogs love it and still are alive.. Maybe some dogs are more immune to it maybe not.
It also showed the younger male wolf eating a dolphin that got stranded on the beach it was already dead.
So it goes show you wolves will eat what's available to them.
I dunno if coyotes always leaves the stomachs or if sometimes they eat them I always hear their howls and sometimes their hunts and fighting too.. No videos on trails so can't catch it in action.
I'm not trying to de bunk anyone though so hope no hard feelings.
Haha Nicole, you sure are passionate about this! Thanks for the writeup.
There are several theories on how dogs were domesticated, and the Coppinger model is not one of my favorites. Not because I dislike the idea of dogs being scavengers (they are in a sense, some will eat anything) but I just don't think that's how they were domesticated. I think they were around long before proto-man had actual garbage dumps. I also don't think that dogs were domesticated from the "Northern wolves", the wolf commonly seen in North America, etc. which is built to take down large prey. But instead, I think they come from from the "Southern wolves" which are smaller and found in North Africa, South Asia and the Middle East, and while they do take down larger animals quite often, are not built as powerfully as their Northern cousins.
Anyways, dogs most certainly can eat and subsist on foods other than meat-based ones. However, I do think that dogs are carnivores, albeit opportunistic ones (which does NOT mean strict, that's obligate) so when they happen to find something that smells tasty, say a ripe berry or bowl of oatmeal, they're gonna eat it. Does that make them omnivores? Not to me. Still a carnivore.
Conker gets a wide variety of foods and not only meat-based foods. He is given fruits and veggies (cooked or killed to death in a blender since he won't eat them raw and just make a big mess instead) as well as... grains. Yes, I give my dog grains, and no I'm not gonna kill him with them. He gets more grains than fruits and veggies, actually. BUT, he does have some problematic intolerances to some grains (wheat and corn are the biggest) and I only give him certain kinds. Conker's diet consists of roughly 75% meat-based items and 25% everything else, but this is not due to evolutionary beliefs or what-have you, it's just easier and sometimes required for me to give him a bowl of sardines and oats instead of hacking up a chicken. Conker was on a 100% raw diet for a while but due to the unavailability of some items (namely organs), I can't keep going at it that way or he will develop some serious deficiencies of a couple vitamins and minerals. So I opted instead to switch things up and add in some non meat items to replace what I couldn't get. It's worked out fine, and I think it's actually better if Conker gets more to his variety than what just meaty things can provide. But for the most part, he eats a carnivorous diet.
100% raw diets, if done properly or commercially complete/balanced/whatever can work. Not for all dogs though; thanks to breeding practices over the years, some dogs can't handle it, and others have medical issues that prevent it. But, if you're gonna do it that way and do the home-made type, you do need to know your stuff or you could end up hurting your dog.
The main reason I don't consider them true carnivours is because of their ability to surivive on plant material, which proves that they do break it down (often time the skins of certain vegetables are not, but this occurs even in people, sorry for the gross out). I know that kenshin and his doggy friend steal berries right off of my friends bushes, and infact it was their first encounter with said berries and fruits in general.
However if you tried this with say a ferret, you would have either a dead animal from starvation, a terrible pancrietic response, or blocked intestines because anything plant like comes out exactly the same. I know from experience after a family member gave him penuts, he was fine though it took a while, but the poop didn't look like anything but chopped nuts, not even his kibble came down with it. When sick, they must eat baby food, if you tried chicken and rice they would die.
Even cats have very bad responses, and I've noticed cats on cheap kibbles with very low meat content, tend to get kidney, and bladder problems a lot more than cats eating otherwise, some don't but that can be contributed to the taurine in their food, something ferrets also depend on. Also the lack of sweet sensors on cat tongues seems very telling, at least to me. Ferrets have them, at least domestic ones, which im not sure about, but it may have something to do with how they eat most of their prey.
I'm not saying dogs are vegetarians, I still think they should eat mostly meat, but dogs unlike wolves are primarily scavengers and remind me of bears who will eat anything. As far at the theory goes, I find it easy to believe when you look at dump sites in alaska, and the tendency for the few instances of wolves killing humans in NA to be around them. Im pretty sure some early people tried to own wolves, the same people try today, but that would have been hard to do in a nomadic lifestyle, and children being around, so I can't see it being too popular to found a species, but that's the issue you get with every theory.
Today Saya had egg, three oysters, and blueberries for breakfast and will get boneless pork for dinner. Yummy.
I feel dogs are carnivores, but also eat herbs, fruits and veggies.. I got a herb book thing is 300 or so pages long still haven't scratched the surface.. I do give Saya herbs like parsley and cilantro grounded up and mixed in her ground meat.
Saya is picky with her veggies she only likes 5 types veggies and only cooked most part she eats them, but only small amount and once she had enough she refuses them..
I only give veggies as an treat every now again.
Thanksgiving and christmas I stock up on turkey necks, livers, wings to feed throughout the year and during those Holidays she gets sweetpotatoes, fresh cooked cranberries no sugar added or anything, and turkey as her holiday meals. Saya and Bella loves it.
Since Saya is so picky about fruits and veggies I never include them as main diet.
Grains Saya has never shown any issues with grains her first puppy food chicken soup for puppy lover soul and wellness puppy has grains in it..
Saya does get sushi for her birthday she loves it I have the man make it without wasabi.
She had fried egg, hashbrowns when me and my mom went to a cafe she waited in the car and I saved a little bit in her treat bag and she got it when we got to the car. She loved it.
I dunno the point of my thread..
I agree with Conker raw takes a lot of work and shouldn't be started without research on how to give right nutrients.
I'm lucky to have a nice butcher who has decent deals on their liver and lamb kidneys, farmer's market that sell heart, liver, tongue, and even rocky mountain oysters..
Local meat processor which sells beef scrap meat, liver, heart etc. for $1lb and local farmers who are free ranged and grass fed. I bought two lb of chicken feet and lady gave me a bag of chicken necks free. She'll also hold aside chicken heads for me this spring.
I like to feed a good variety and I feel giving chicken heads will help with it Eyes and brains have certain nutrients that are important.
I hope to get some green beef tripe soon found place that sells is for bulk for decent price..
Well, what about coyotes, jackals and other animals? They have not "self domesticated" yet, and that's where I find a problem with that theory. Golden Jackals have been scavenging for centuries off human dump sites and they are still very wild, and I really do not see how that would only happen with wolves.
Also, none of my dogs can digest raw plant material very well. I find their digestion of raw plant materials to be the same as coyotes, not entirely well but they still digest it somewhat. Sure they can subsist on it, but that doesn't mean they are supposed to eat it. Look at cows in the dairy and meat business. They are not supposed to eat corn, they are not designed for it, but they can life off it. Not very healthily, but they still live.
Plant material given to dogs in commercial diets, even vegetarian diets, is all busted up, broken down and usually cooked at very high temperatures. This "digests" the plant cells that dogs can't break down on their own for them. Once you do that, it makes sense that dogs can live off it since the nutrients that they wouldn't normally get are now available.
Anyways, I am not opposed to feeding dogs fruits, veggies and grains, as I have previously stated. I just don't see them as omnivores.
interesting thread... i have a question for @saya , im not opposed too raw food diets for dogs,but am kind of skeptikal to get brewster on raw meats..anyways my question is do/have your pups ever gotten sick from it?
"Look at cows in the dairy and meat business. They are not supposed to eat corn, they are not designed for it, but they can life off it. Not very healthily, but they still live."
This is true, but also sad. :( I've eaten mostly corn fed beef, but also been getting grass fed I can really taste the difference even it has a better taste to it and from what I read grass fed beef supposed to have more omega in it..
Heck even farm fresh free ranged chicken eggs are different and better compared to the eggs you get from grocery. I don't really need to add salt to the free ranged eggs..
@BrewSter Saya has never gotten sick from raw she has gotten mucous in her poop in her first week, but she was new to raw getting used to it and it only happened once. Bone shards were in her poop, but once she adjusted to raw all bone is digested well into small bits or powder.
I don't worry about bacteria dogs can handle much more then we give them credit for dogs eat cat, dog, deer, and rabbit poop.. Though eating rabbit and deer poop might give parasites due to it being a wild animal. Rabbit has tapeworm I read..
Saya has eaten a whole rabbit once I froze it for a month then fed it she ate everything but the intestines and stomach. She did fine and fecal excamn came back negative so I guess month freezing did a good job..
I love that video so funny! Saya not into cabbage I offered it once and she refused she wants her veggies cooked. She loves grilled asparagus and zucchini lol..
Raw carrots she tosses around like a toy or chews them, but leaves the chewed bits on the ground.
Here's video of her enjoying a whole quail I got her from hare-today.com..
Here's part one
part two
I don't think feeding raw has increased her prey drive more then it was when she was on kibble I have a feeling she'd caught that rabbit even if she still ate kibble.
Even though she eats feathered quail she never chases after the morning doves that sit on the ground to eat or the robins.
She seems more interested in rabbits and squirrels and big birds like vultures, hawks, crows, ducks, goose and pheasants..
She still listens to me on walks and if she sees a deer run away she'll get excited for a bit, but calms down quickly when I tell her to leave it and to come.
Raw isn't for everyone, but I enjoy the variety it brings if she was on kibble still I'd be rotating her every bag to at least three or four different protein kibble..
thank you for the info (i like first hand knowlege) and we will certainly take it into consideration,i had a husk who was on raw meat diet but he was born (with the exception of his moms milk) into raw meats by his breeder so he had a tolerance already i was just worried about brewster and his size etc but i can se ethat you have no problems with saya :) for now well stick to his kibble but when we get a home with a yard we might start raw meats again thank you so much that was quite informative
No problem Conker Losech's shiba did have some loose poop when starting out, but now he's fine as far as I know. I believe probiotics helped with it.
Sure puppies transition to raw much easier compared to ones who started on kibble, but it can happen.. My next puppy will be transitioned at 8weeks day I get the pup coarse that will be a long time when I live in a apartment or house..
