I do not know anything about breeding dogs, but I would like to know how many times the same dog can be used generationally for BOTH parent dogs. I just received a 5 generation family tree for my Shiba and there are lots of crossover of the same dogs on both sides of the family.
It's not uncommon for sire and dam to share a grandparent. Its up to the breeder if that is what they want. The more ancestors that are shared, the greater the loss of genetic diversity and the greater the chance of doubling up on undesired traits. If there is a shared grandparent, it should be a dog that is healthy, that you love that has traits you love and want to reproduce. I more often see a dog that is a shared ancestor as the grandparent on one side, and as a great grandparent on the other. A 7-10 generation pedigree will give a more complete picture. With Shibas, there will almost always be at least 1 shared ancestor in 7 generations, but not always.
Masakado Shiba Inu www.masakadoshiba.wordpress.com "Common sense isn't so common"
I just did the 5 generation map....one sire appears 4 different times......and one of those is he mated with his daughter! It is so complicated I cannot believe it. We used different highlighters to mark up the map because there were so many duplications. Some were duplicates within the dams history across 5 generations, and some were cross duplicated on both sides across 5 generations. They share at least 6 separate and different relatives on both sides.
I was wondering this too, because in the puppy mill thread, there was that pedigree that (if it was real) showed a dog as a great grand sire then as a sire in one line, which seemed kind of wierd to me.
I have to admit, schubes, that this doesn't sound good, and since you also say your dog is quite large, well, it makes me wonder! Did you get your dog from a reputable breeder, or do you have doubts about the breeder? (and believe me, no judgements here--a lot of us didn't even know how to evaluate breeders, a lot of people, like me, have a puppy mill shiba).
It was Lallys Loveables in PA. My daughter did the investigating and purchasing. I did not even know a dog was on the way until the deal was made. Plus I really didn't care since she was going to be living in another state. When Roxy came to live with me very soon after the purchase, I still didn't know anything. I only recently started digging into her pedigree due to issues. I thought she might be a shikoku or some other related Japenese breed due to size. There are not many shibas around here, but once I met one in person, Roxy looked like a giant next to it and it made me wonder.
Lindsat: Roxy shares one particular male relative 5 different ways. This is a Kinouk's dog. I tried researching that name and that name comes up with some champion dogs. The problem is this particular Kinouk is related once on roxy paternal side and 3 different times on her maternal side.
She also has a female relative Black Velvet that mated with Kinouk twice and mated with someone else once. So Black Velvet shows up 3 times, 2 on maternal and 1 on paternal side.
There are 2 or 3 other shared matings that appear on both sides as well. So, if you wanted to create a genetic monster, I think they have the recipe perfected and it is documented!!!!
Is there an easier way to look into the kennels of the ancestors? Just googling one at a time is tedious and time consuming because I can find relatives of a particular dog and have to search that dog for some time until I get to the dog I am actually looking for.
Yes, research on pedigrees and dogs can be tedious and time consuming. I dont recognize the names you mentioned. If the registry is not AKC, it will be much more difficult to track, and these bogus registries like ACA and APRI, do offer "shows" and championships, but they are a far cry from meaning anything. When you do a kennel name search, or an individual dog search, it will be easier to get records from AKC, if the dog was registered with AKC.
Masakado Shiba Inu www.masakadoshiba.wordpress.com "Common sense isn't so common"
Just did a quick search, jeez those are some old lines. Like from the 80's old. I haven't seen a dog from that kennel in any pedigrees over the last 5 years. I wonder if she is still breeding, or if the dogs didn't just end up in the wrong hands during their retirement years?
Masakado Shiba Inu www.masakadoshiba.wordpress.com "Common sense isn't so common"
I bought the records yesterday...paid a fee for a 5 generation. That is how I know all of this. I have each dog in the 5 generations and their AKC #. Plus some have DNA # too.
But what good is the AKC if they will assign AKC numbers to anyone with a checkbook. That's what it appears like to me. They don't seem to branch out the applicant very far in order to investigate the "cross breeding blood".
I found a couple of other random Shiba generational maps like mine posted online last night. Both have the same Kinouk and Black Velvet dogs mating in the ancestry, but not the multiple duplicated versions.
Kinouk's Matagi is the frequent sire in my map. And Black Velvet's Chena mates with him twice. Then Black Velvet's Chena reappears later with another sire. Kinouks Matagi mates with a couple of other girls, too (including his daughter).
Then we have other of Kinouk's dogs making single appearances here and there. And some brothers and sisters of Kinouk offspring making appearances at different times with other random dogs.
The whole map is like a slurry of genes repeating. And I would bet that whoever the original champion Kinouk breeder is/was may not be happy that their line has been morphed into a sloppy mess.
I don't think she is actively breeding anymore, or she is doing so very quietly.
AKC is just a registry. Unless a breeder is falsifying (provable) records, registrations and litters, or forging documents, there isn't much they can do. The consumer has the burden of demanding ethical practice from their breeders.
Masakado Shiba Inu www.masakadoshiba.wordpress.com "Common sense isn't so common"
Maybe she (kinouk?) is under another name since the Kinouk name is now all goofed up. Have you heard of a shiba named Sayuri? She is a littermate of Roxy. Or a shiba named Odin Garr...another littermate. Such a weird name, maybe the owner used his own name for registration instead of a dog's name. I cannot find these two names in searches for a shiba that would match the time frame (4/2006 birth).
