hello to everyone again, As i have mentioned previously, we get our two beautiful shiba puppies in a month (sooo excited!) and i have two children. My youngest is 20 months old and is absolutely puppy obsessed. Everything is puppies, she draws them everyday and drags around her favourite stuffed puppy feeding it and all so cute lol. Anyway, i was wondering is there anyone who got their Shibas when they had young children in the house under the age of two? Did you have any special techniques as far as getting the toddler involved with all aspects of having a puppy around? I have already started teaching my girl to be gentle and respectful and not grab or pull at animals (we have a family cat who is probably her best friend, they love each other to death, also she has been exposed to family's dogs and i have horses so she knows as much as she can for 20 months old!) Did you find that the puppy treated them more like a litter mate? I know as far as my kids go they will respect the puppies space and listen to mummy when it comes to the puppies....i just hope the puppies can learn the same!! :) I thank you in advance for any advice given :)
Koyuki - red female d.o.b 18/11/2011 Takeo- cream male d.o.b 21/11/2011
@elizabeth123 - Maybe you could chime in and give some advice on how you got your children and Rocky to respect each others' space?
@koyuki - Wish I had some advice for you, but I have child-o-phobia... Haha. The best thing that you can do is give both your daughter and your puppies (OMG, I am still trying to figure out how you are going to manage TWO Shiba puppies!) their own separate space away from each other. And then only allow supervised play time between the child and the dogs... Elizabeth has two young children and she recently added a Shiba to her family and from what she says, it has been going fairly well. So hopefully she will log in soon and chime in with some good advice for you. :)
Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia. I Wander, I Ride
I am surprised your breeder sold you two puppies at once....that sounds greedy on the part of the person that is selling the dogs and not doing you any favors. Two of the same age is a recipe that I would not even take on.
With two puppies and only one toddler under the age of two you have a lot of work cut out that you will absolutely need to follow through with and do correctly right off the bat for both child and dog(s). It isn't going to be a picnic....Avoiding bites will be essential through management and decent training methods (both human and four paws).
1. I highly recommend getting educated through reading the following for the essentials:
2. I would seriously line up the training center now and have training occur at two different times during a week for each individual puppy. Start here to find a trainer: http://www.trulydogfriendly.com/blog/?page_id=4
We are already booked in for obedience classes, my partner and i will be taking a puppy each.also its not like im going to be alone in raising and training and loving these puppies as my partner will be here when hes not working...also knowing the challenge of raising a child (btw i love the challenge ) i think my family is well equipped to raise two puppies at once...especially with my partners experience and my time and patience,i think its going to be a really fun chapter of our lives :-) the way i see it is, if you have one child then fall pregnant with twins... lol. To add i have 14 years experience with training horses,which if anyone has any experience with horses you may understand...i broke in my own arab and trained her for showing and dressage and i would say that as far as training and attitude goes arabs and shibas are on the same level for each species lol. Anyway i look forward to reading anybody's shiba and child experiences! :-)
Koyuki - red female d.o.b 18/11/2011 Takeo- cream male d.o.b 21/11/2011
P.s @StaticNfuzz thanks for all the links and info, i have looked into training centres in our part of australia but we really only have obedience and agility clubs. But we are very lucky in that my partners grandma is a puppy obedience instructor,his sister has shown dogs for breeders all over our state so she can help out if we ever go down that road :-)
Koyuki - red female d.o.b 18/11/2011 Takeo- cream male d.o.b 21/11/2011
I was too scared to let kenshin around young kids. Shibas are very mouthy as puppies, and it takes them a while to learn bite inhibition. A playful nip can result in bleeding not to mention the talons they have for dew claws. Their high prey drive, snippy attitude when annoyed, high energy, and tendency for food and toy possesiveness is going to make this very hard. You have to hope both of these pups have a gentle temperment with low drives. If not, be prepared for some accidents and constant vigilance. Everyone in my family got nipped a little too hard at one point, and even though I had a dog here to help teach him bite inhibition, he didn't really get a "soft" mouth until 5 months. It may best to only let her play with them one at a time at first and to not get them to riled up. You have a lot of work cut out for you.
Also it is worth mentioning not to forget your also going to need some careful introduction to your cat. You have to worry about prey drive when they get older so its important they learn to respect the cat. I'm not saying this can't work, but my boy was such a handful as a pup, and he was considered pretty relaxed. I was able to get him crate free by 6 months but that only happened because I was off from school from his 12th week until his 25th and I gave him all of my attention. They are very needy pups and their intellegince means its way too easy for them to get in trouble. Make sure your pups don't stay too into each other and bond with the family.
Koyuki you state "I know as far as my kids go they will respect the puppies space and listen to mummy when it comes to the puppies"....
Sounds great, however i'd have to say it isn't all goodness and light. Yes it can be fun but it is also frazzling at times in regard to supervision. I am sure you well know, as with horses, safety should always be your prime concern. The reality is both kids and puppies will test their boundaries, and even if your child/children is/are the perfect little angels, igreat with what you dictate, able to draw murals resembling the Sistine Chapel and are Beethovens prodigy, when your back is turned or they get frustrated that is when both parties will sprout horns and trouble will bubble up... Just the facts of interaction and development. Kids will be kids and dogs will be dogs and you will fully need to step in to guide that.
In my experience you can not leave anyone unsupervised at all until both parties are much more mature, little humans or dogs. The tolerance and self control level will not be there for sometime in either case, and for many dogs they are on a short thread when it comes to kids often becoming behaviorally worse as they develop out of puppyhood.
Please make absolutely sure that if you can not give 100% attention at any point in time you have a safe off limit area for the dogs and a separate safe area for kids and you fully back up house rules. Suffice it to say it isn't a good excuse to lock puppies away in the back forty as you watch from the window, you have to balance the relationship with a lot of training and proper handling.
As Inoushi mentions the dynamic of dog to dog being a concern since puppies of the same age and from the same litter will often bond closely with each other, tending to omit others outside of that circle. It does not mean you can not make it work, but most likely you will have to put in triple or quadruple time in socialization and training for the best outcome with this breed.
Saya loves little kids even as a small pup she loved meeting them. She did get scared of just boys once because two ran at her barking and stomping their feet their mom coarse were busy not watching their kids.. So Saya used to growl and back away from boys even nice ones who behaved well..
With lots of positive reinforcement work she now likes boys again.
I agree never leave the pups unsupervised with kids that's how bites happen and not being around means you don't know what had happened and how to work on it to improve it and prevent it.
I don't have kids, but lot cousin's who are young so Saya met them a lot.
She was a very mouthy pup would bite me or my mom's hair if we layed down.
It can work out just be sure to have the pups in the crate or with you when you can't supervise most pups need be crated anyways for house training and to prevent the pup from chewing when not supervised.
I got my pup Mikai yesterday, and he likes to bite when playing. You really need to watch around kids as i found out todayas he just think its part of playing. Although the kids where fine, the puppy just doesnt know when to stop. Its been a tough couple of days and i couldnt imagine how hard it would be to have 2 Shiba Pups.
Wish you all the best and hope to see how your getting on :D
We don't have any young kids, but do have a son (12 yrs) who is disabled. Saki, is very respectful and protective of him, but likes to play and mouth (not biting anymore) him, were our son doesn't, so we have to supervise at all times when they are in the same room. Good luck with the puppies and the toddler!
Oh geez, I am pregnant and due in April and now I am getting nervouse after reading this thread! Granted, Ginger isn't a puppy (or two!) but she is quite the ball of energy and not use to kids in the house, much less a newborn...
Luckily when your bundle comes along...they pretty much sleep all the time! Congrats on your baby btw,it really is the most wonderful experience. My mum, sister and are due in march so my puppies are going to meet alot of babies!
Koyuki - red female d.o.b 18/11/2011 Takeo- cream male d.o.b 21/11/2011
Saya loves kids even small toddlers who are still exploring their world. Brad and Jen have all their dogs and have chase too and things are going well for them. :D
I guess try to keep routine as normal as you can if you got baby room set up then maybe introduce Ginger to the room, bed things like diapers or anything. I wonder if there's a cd with baby noises someone sells.. Babies crying and making different noises can be so odd to some dogs so maybe having the baby noises paired with treats will prep Ginger for it?
If you got the stroller maybe get her used to it and if you plan on taking her on a walk with the baby by either having your husband walk her or you walk her with stroller maybe prep ahead of time work on her getting used to it and slowly work on walking with her with it or her getting used to it moving around..
Saya was desensitized to people on wheelchairs by her trainer so maybe that's why she doesn't seem to be afraid of kid's strollers. Doesn't help little kids smell like yummy things she loves licking the kids hands. haha
Hope things go well I know there's a few owners her who have dog with baby or kids. I was pretty much raised with Mike the GSD mix from a baby to kid..
Coarse never leave dog alone with baby or let her in baby room alone who knows maybe nothing happens, but never know.
One time a little toddler came up to Saya she grabbed her tail and Saya was a bit surprised, but she took it fine without biting she got a treat as soon as I saw baby do this to distract her and I asked the kid to please pet her nicely and showed the toddler how to do it she smiled and actually pet her nicely on her back and Saya got tons of treats for being calm.
A dog might bite out of correction to a small kid, but not know that's not OK..
My 3 shibas are within a year and a half of each other and I raised them all from 8 weeks... like a fool! It sounds like you have your head on straight about the situation, but the learning curve (for me at least) was so steep. It took forever to get the management down, and this is with 3 shibas who get along relatively well... that is they haven't seriously tried to kill each other yet.
Adding children to the mix isn't something I'm familiar with, but honestly after raising all the puppies at once, I'm very satisfied knowing it CAN be done, but I'm never raising a puppy again. Good luck!
We got Tsumo at 7.5 weeks old when we had 2 little foster kids with us (actually they're still with us) so all 3 boys grew up together.
The younger of the boys was 18 months when we got Tsumo and he really loves animals. The older boy was 2.5 and he doesn't quite love animals as much. There were a few scares when the boys got to know Tsumo - particularly when they yanked his tail/ears, stomped on his tail when he was asleep and in one scenario when one of them tried to bandaid our poor pup's bum because he thought it was an "owie". LUCKILY, Tsumo just yelped and walked away. He has never nipped the boys despite the fact that they were rough with him initially. In fact, when the younger boy went through his "picnic under the dining table" phase, we'd often find Tsumo (his partner in crime) with him.
We had a chat with our vet about how to make sure Tsumo knew he was bottom of the pecking order and he suggested that we involve the boys in the training. So we had the boys help out with treats and such so that Tsumo knew that he had to be nice otherwise he wouldn't get treats. It worked brilliantly. Both boys can get Tsumo to sit, stay, come and release.
Thats excellent ladyrita, must be so cute to watch. Our toddler is practising with her puppy toys, although she feeds them her chocolate custard with a spoon... but i really cant wait for them all to interract and become friends its so exciting. Our breeder emailed me last week saying how much the pups are thriving and that as beautiful as the girl is the boy is her favourite as he has the best personality. Id love to go visit them to see them all play but they are a 12 hr drive away from us so its basically impossible, but our breeder is great and is sending us videos and pics. Our older child is getting impatient and every dog he sees he gets a bit sad asking when his puppies come home!
Koyuki - red female d.o.b 18/11/2011 Takeo- cream male d.o.b 21/11/2011
I got Kishi when my son was 23months old. Thankfully our breeder was only 30 minutes away so we started visiting her when my son was 18months old to see how he handled the dogs, what we needed to work on with him, and what temperament might fit him best. Our breeder made us pass on the first litter but thankfully in the second there was a little female with a sweet, calmer personality. That is the best advice I can give. Start out right with the proper puppy to fit your family. Before Kishi came home we had her crate, food bowls, and toys out. We taught our son that these things were not to be touched, especially the crate. That is her haven. We worked with being calm, quiet, and gentle around dogs. I taught him to approach slowly and pet under her chest not patting her head. The first thing I trained Kishi on was to have a soft mouth(thankfully she pretty much had this down as the breeder had already started this training with her) Having a soft mouth meant Emery(my son) could give her the reward treats during training. I also had him hand feed her, with supervision of course. Pretty much all good things came from him. They were never allowed in the same room unless I could give them my competed attention. That way we nipped any negative behaviors in the butt right away. As they have grown they both have more freadom. They get along beautifully and love each other. It was very hard though. I am sooo glad we are done with the puppy stage but it was worth it. "leave it" has been the best command we have taught for leaving our cat alone but it works for a multitude of things.
I hate to confuse you any more as my advice is opposite to Britkotsu's but I thought I'd add. However, both seem quite logical to me :)
Our vet was really firm that Tsumo knows who's boss so he advised us (as part of the training) to get our little foster kids to take away his possessions while Tsumo was still young and "malleable" - this was to teach "sharing". We were especially nervous about Tsumo being aggressive around his food bowl as our friend's dog was like that her whole life. This might sound gross, but our vet's advice was to put our fingers in his bowl for a while during eating/drinking and to take away his bowl from him on occasion, wait a few seconds and then place it back. He's never growled at us when we have done so and knows that if he waits patiently and doesn't react, he'll get his food back.
You can't stop a baby from taking away a dog toy and we may have younger foster children so we got our boys to take away tsumo's toys on occasion, wait a while and then give it back. He learnt to just find another toy and play with that if the foster kids took too long to give it back .
Like Britkotsu, we tried to make Tsumo's crate his haven...but the boys think he's another brother so everything has to be "shared" haha - we do remind them to leave his crate alone but to no avail. Our youngest crawls into his crate to get his toys to play with him or during puppy role playing games etc with his brother. Tsumo's allowed on the couch and our beds so if he wants quiet time, he'll find another place to chill. Might sound harsh but he is really great with the boys and we are often complimented on his behaviour around children.
Up to you and good luck! It won't be long now!!! And don't worry about your older child, I was just as impatient and I was 20 when I got Tsumo haha :P Can't wait for your puppy spam!
Ladyrita- Your advice is great too. Whatever works best for your family just be consistant and patient with whatever you try. I wanted to add that we taught Kishi the command "Drop" When she was consistant with this we showed Emery how to tell her to drop something. This way he wasn't snatching things from her. However with a child that will happen. We did a lot of trading games with Emery and Kishi. Example: Emery says "Drop" Kishi drops the stuffed animal in her mouth but is given a ball to play with by Emery. They both seem to enjoy this game. They just keep trading toys :)
The idiom the dog "has to "Know who's boss" is such a cliche...however, teaching good manners with all those in the family is not.
It is important to understand taking away and giving back the food bowl can back fire.... That tactic is really a slippery slope and one I would not recommend as general path to go with, or first choice. There are some things that should be managed and dinner time is one of them. Many kids will tease a dog by taking away and often it stirs up more problems depending on the dog and environment.
Trading is always the best thing to do with toys, food, bowl etc, As britkotsu suggests. As another suggestion it is a good idea to drop new food in while eating or hand feeding the dog directly.
The resource links provided above should pull families through as well as those expecting. There are many things to consider and even if you have been through it all before the information is a nice refresher.
ok, i have 5 children.. 11, 8, 5, and twins that just turned 2.. i was on the waiting list for a pup but ended up getting tartchi, 7 y/o male shiba.. so far things have been great, like you i have 2 cats and just recently sold the horses (ive got osteoarthritis and was advised not to ride anymore) and have chickens and ducks, so my kids have always been around a variety of animals. 1. take the kids to puppy training so the shibas learn to respect your children as a leader not a play mate, once you get that respect between them it will be a lot easier, other wise your toddler will be a human chew toy and the shibas pet, so to speak 2. teach your little one boundaries on what they can and cant do and how to treat the puppy, play time is play time, bed time is bed time. you dont want the puppies to learn that they can get away anything using your toddler and they will..
i no its hards trying to teach little people to understand, and i must say that my twins are big on "dog care" atm and are always giving biscuits and water and giving tartchi a pat on the head with a "there you go", its soooo cute and luckily tartchi just sits there like oh dear herer we go again, but my twins have learnt to respect his nap times and dont pull his tail or ears etc, they get along so well, the twins walk tartchi around the back yard on the leash. (suppervised of course) ive only had an akita as a puppy so its similar to a shiba and i found that she was like a baby, so i treated her as one.. feed, play, bed.. i got her into a routine and was very strickt with trainig and behaviour,. establishing your self and your children as pack leaders is very important from a young age, your pups need to see your toddler as a leader, as your toddler is closer to their size than you they will try to become leader over the toddler..
i agree with staticnfuzz about the food maitenence, get the kids to hand feed the pups and get pups used to being patted while eating etc while they are small. the last thing you want is a food possed dog and children, disaster. i personally dont like dogs around while im cooking and eating so i usually feed tartchi the same time we eat so the kids are eating while he is eating outside, snack and things during the day the kids will try and share with tartchi. but id like to think we have a mutual food respect.
5 kids and a shiba, call me crazy, but i wouldnt change if for the world
@jo_n_tartchi thanks for the advice :-) it must be so sweet seeing your little ones bond with tartchi so quickly! I have already established some 'rules' as far as anything that belongs to the puppies in relation to rest and alone time is off limits for the kids like their beds and their pen even though they are not here yet! But basically we plan on the kids being involved in every aspect of the training and integration into the family. I really cant wait to watch them all grow up together,its going to be quite the journey!
Koyuki - red female d.o.b 18/11/2011 Takeo- cream male d.o.b 21/11/2011
and a really rewarding journey in the end.. have fun with it all.. be firm, persistent and patient.. and you will have some awesome, happy shibas with an awesome family.:)
5 kids and a shiba, call me crazy, but i wouldnt change if for the world
I'm really glad to read this thread. I want to add some more humans to our family but we're still having training issues with Hayate (18 months) and my partner is convinced that it would be too unsafe to have a baby in the house as well. Koyuki, please keep us updated on your progress! Of course it's different bringing the dogs into a house with children rather than the way around I would be doing it, but I am sure I can learn a lot from you regardless. Oh, we're Australian too btw (although living in Japan).
Saya was hand fed kibble a lot as a puppy I'd like to think that's why she is so calm with me holding her raw food or feeding kibble..
My cousin's who are young love giving Saya treats and Saya loves the treats to I tell them to hold the treats in their hand flat and hold their hands down and Saya licks the treats right up and the kids always giggle with excitement. lol
They even ask Saya to sit before giving the treat or speak they love it and Saya does tricks for food.
Saya was never around them when she was tiny except for their birthday parties and when she went to the farmer's market when she was really young she met some young kids there.
Thanks for sharing these stories, we are planning to add little humans in a few years so this thread is very informative and I will keep in my mind when we reach that stage.
I don't know if she is a member here or not but I recently found this blog: http://lokitheshiba.blogspot.com/ she talks about having a difficult shiba and a baby, some interesting reading.
Just an update. Puppies have been with us for a week now and they love the kids,abd the kids love the puppies. They all get along great.my toddler hand feeds them kibble and they love to eat from her hand, she also will lay down with the pups and they are so sweet and gentle with her it really is adorable. They share their toys with her and love to all run around outside together. We have had no problems whatsoever, having the puppies have even helped with my toddlers speach as she tries double hard so we know she wants to go play with the puppies.
Koyuki - red female d.o.b 18/11/2011 Takeo- cream male d.o.b 21/11/2011
That's great! We are expecting our first child in April and we are trying to get Ginger use to the stroller and play yard... she's very suspicious of all the new items coming into the house, lol.
Lol ok so havent figured it out but that is koyuki looking a bit put out in my pic! She climbs up on my shoulder and expects me to NOT take a photo pffft haha
Koyuki - red female d.o.b 18/11/2011 Takeo- cream male d.o.b 21/11/2011
Good to hear that they're all getting along great!
My 7 month Shiba has practically grown up with my 18 month niece since he was about 8 weeks old. They hang out together all day with my mom who watches both of them while we're at work. My niece looks/calls for him as soon as she gets dropped off in the morning so they've definitely bonded.
I think he knows that she's a baby too, so he's always really gentle with her (I still keep an eye on him around her though). We made sure to teach her to be gentle with handling him, and vice versa. Currently, she's at the stage where she wants to carry him now which looks more like a big hug though haha. I'm not sure if it's because they're both babied, or if it's just that he knows she's a food source (since she tends to be a messy eater) but he definitely seems to like her (most of the time).
In terms of tips: We hand-fed him treats to teach him to be gentle and worked on bite inhibition early (timeouts and being overly dramatic). He still nips but never hard. His toys are her toys and her toys are his, so if you buy balls and stuff for her, just save your money and get the pet version.
@biz79 how sweet! sounds like they will be best friends for life! Its funny, daughter has a different type of relationship with each pup ( they have such different personalities it makes sense i guess!). With Koyuki she just wants to cuddle with her and baby her- she gets down and curls up on the floor or in her bed with Koyuki its so sweet. With Takeo she has figured out to get him to stop trying to use her hair as a play toy she always has one of his ready now ...she loves to play fetch with him and gets him to chase her around the backyard. Its going to be really cool when shes old enough to walk them and stuff!
Koyuki - red female d.o.b 18/11/2011 Takeo- cream male d.o.b 21/11/2011
It is official....my puppies have a favourite family member.....our youngest child, the cheeky toddler!!! she woke me up this morning telling ME it was time to go take the puppies outside lol. they saw her and started howling and carrying on and jumped and kissed her and waited to make sure she was going out in the backyard with them before running out!! then with feeding them i put their bowls down and my daughter picks them up and repositions them and they sit and wait for her to finish then she eats a bit from each bowl (ewww) lol and they go give her a bit of a cuddle then they eat their breakfast!!! she constantly has her fingers in their food while they are eating and they are so gentle with her and are not posessive in the slightest, it really is helping their behaviour to have a little one around getting into everything of theirs!! (so much so that i caught her the other day on all fours barking and drinking out of their water bowl and the two pups patiently waiting for their turn!!!- we had just put fresh water in it phew!)
Koyuki - red female d.o.b 18/11/2011 Takeo- cream male d.o.b 21/11/2011
Ando loves all kids the most out of strangers he meets. Only problem is, he gets so excited he knocks the smaller ones over jumping on them and doing his favorite thing (licking them), which tends to scare some kids, although he means no harm. That's why I try to hold him on a real short leash and keep him as calm as possible when around smaller children. He also tends to nibble when he really gets into the licking, so I have to watch out for that too.
