My wife and I adopted a Shiba yesterday and she seems fine most of the time, but if i try to pet her while she is lying down she will show teeth and growl at me. I'm assuming that she's doing this just because she doesn't trust us yet and feels threatened when we touch her while she's lying down. Hope this stops soon. any ideas on how to break this behavior?
Give her time to adjust, you've had her for a day. Don't force her to have to be pet if she doesn't want to. Shibas are not normally a cuddly breed, don't expect her to enjoy too much contact right away.
Instead of trying to pet her, just give her a treat when she comes and lays near you. She'll learn that by coming close, she gets a treat, and when she is fine with being around you you can slowly start to pet her if she will allow. Don't reach for her head, that can sometimes scare a dog. Instead scratch her chest or chin.
Some dogs will never allow you to touch them at certain times, and again if she doesn't want to be touched while laying down even after a while, just don't do it.
Yeah they take a while to adjust. There are some good posts on here about not forcing the dog to do stuff it doesn't like to desensitize it...so it's definitely good advice to stop trying for now. You have to build trust and positive associations....
When I first brought my Shiba home, he would not lay down if we where within 6 feet of him. He got so tired he would fall asleep standing up. He only let us pet his head, and lived in holy fear of being picked up. Now he's quite the cuddlebug....for a Shiba! I just tried to give him treats for coming to me and touch him only in ways I knew he liked. Now I can do most anything with him....if he doesn't like it he will scream and/or mouth my hands. But no more snarls, snaps, etc.
Don't get discouraged, focus on facilitating positive interactions, let her get to know you. Never do anything to breed mistrust (my dog had obviously been tricked a lot with treats, so he was very suspicious of them at first).
Good advice above. Growling is a warning that should be taken as just that. If she is grumbling give her more space she may not like the unfamiliar interaction. Some dogs grumble at strange and new things so it will take some time to get to know her before getting up close and personal. Most Shibas take things on their own terms and in their own time, often requiring a bit of breathing room.
Thanks for the tips, everyone. We're just going to give her space. She definitely wants to be near us. She follows us into whatever room we're in and will hang out close to us. Just going to take it slow.
@jmiller - Use her shadowing to your advantage to build trust. Start dropping treats on the ground as you are walking. When she lays next to you, give her several treats (not all at once, but over time while she is just hanging out). This will help her associate being around you, and in your home, with good things.
Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia. I Wander, I Ride
ditto to all above, good advice...Just to give you hope for future, our Shiba is very friendly and lets me touch him anywhere, BUT, when he was a puppy he would try to bite me when I closed his crate door, growl show teeth when picked him up.
He still doesn't like to be picked up if he's laying down, will do a head whip and a funny growl, so I don't pick him up when he's laying down...I ask him to sit, then it's fine..
So just know this is all new and maybe scary for your doggie - you will build a relationship over time (Shibas are known for taking their own sweet time to bond) and like everyone says, keep all interactions positive - and if doggie is following you that's a great sign...
Thanks again, everyone. Last night went really well. Instead of sleeping on the floor, Zena hopped onto our bed and was by our feet. She stayed with her head up trying not to fall asleep. She seemed to be saying "i'm willing to give this a shot, but dont try anything funny." Eventually she fell asleep and when we woke up this morning she came up and licked my hand. So far so good. Still going slow. for day 3 i think we're making great progress.
This seems like a perfect topic to pose a comment/question. I know and understand the value of positive reinforcement, etc. However, I've had a little bit of an issue with growling/showing teeth. This happens often when it is time for Dakota to go to bed after her last pee around 11:00 pm. She often does NOT want to come upstairs with me and go into her crate for the night (she sleeps by our bed in her crate). So, I have tried everything -- treats, patiently waiting for her to come up the stairs (sometimes it takes 15 minutes for her to sniff each stair and finally get up to her crate)... I usually have her lead on her and just patiently wait for her to come up each stair, trying to lure her with treats and calls for her to "come to bed Dakota -- good girl". Last night it was an absolute "NO -- I am NOT coming upstairs to bed". Well, I did need to get to sleep after 11:00 pm, so as she pulled on the lead to try to get downstairs (after I patiently waited for her to get up 1/2 the steps), I just went to her and picked her up and carried her upstairs. She was NOT happy, growling and barring her teeth at me. I just continued up stairs with her, put her in her crate, and finally went to bed. She always sleeps quite well through the whole night. I guess my question is, what do I do when I do NOT have the time or patience to wait until she decides it is time to go to bed. Is picking her up, and ignoring her growl and teeth display ok? I did treat her after I put her in the crate and closed the door. Maybe I should not have???? I could just go to bed and leave her to her own devices downstairs (where she has another bed and crate) but do not quite trust her yet out of the crate for the night downstairs and want her to understand that her bed is in her crate next to where we sleep. Thanks. I guess ignoring her growl is like ignoring a human's bad mood -- which we do all the time. She has never bitten me and has a soft mouth.
How old is she? Hammond used to be real bad about being picked up. Growling, snarling, snapping, biting (he broke the skin a few times). He was a very opinionated, bratty, temper-tantrumy puppy. (He's still very opinionated but getting less prone to temper tantrums)
I just did what you did; if he wouldn't cooperate and I really needed him to, I'd pick him up, ignore his reactions, and put him to bed (with treats and praise, even if he was being a brat). I'd pick him up a lot randomly for no reason, wait for him to stop throwing a fit, put him down, and then treat him.
He's almost 6 months now and is WAY, WAY better at being handled. He still grumbles, but it's exactly that: a grumble. Almost never growls or snarls or snaps anymore.
I think for the first month or so I physically placed Hammond in his crate whenever I needed him in it (a long with a small handful of kibble as a reward). Then I moved to luring him in with the kibble or just tossing it in and shutting the door behind him. Now he's at the point where I can stand across the room, point and say "Crate!" and he'll sprint into it, haha. I still give him a couple of kibble every time he goes in. He also never goes in there on his own. Only when I tell him. But he sleeps quietly and is content when he's in there, so I guess it's fine.
Dakota is 7 months old now..... She just wants what she "wants" when she wants it. For me to get her into her crate when I leave the house, it takes putting a little peanut butter in her cow hoof and tossing it in. She'll trot in right behind it. I do say "Kennel Up" when I do it, however with no treat to entice her, she would NEVER obey me to go into her crate. :) You are doing well with Hammond. I guess there is nothing really I can do but just do what I do.... She has had changing behaviors -- for example some terrible resource guarding around us and other dogs has basically disappeared.. Although we did work with her on that quite a bit... She is much, much better now.
@anna ,hammond seems like brewster , every time i read a thread you post about his behaviour its ver similar if not the exact same thing! (except we havent goten to get him to go in the crate on command ,however he will go in without a fuss and sleeps contently through the night
The crate thing took forever. I was starting to think he'd never pick it up, but then once day it just worked. Like, there was no gradual process. One night I said "Crate" with no effect and had to lure him in, then the next morning I said crate and he ran right in.
He still won't listen if he doesn't think I have treats, though. But the distance he'll respond to the command is increasing (at first I had to stand right there, then a few feet away, now I can stand in the hallway).
For getting your dogs to love their crates and to also teach them impulse control and drive, check out Susan Garrett's Crate Games DVD, http://www.clickerdogs.com/crate_games.php .
It is a great resource and can help you build a great foundation for a good pet or a performance dog.
Pick your battles with the growling when being picked up and grumbling phenomenon. Sometimes you need to just grab them and hoist them up, like an emergency grab, or when the dog has the bedtime grumps, so it's ok to ignore it then. It does temper with age and as the dog realizes what it is you are eventually expecting of them. When you know the dog is not injured, and just being ornery, don't be afraid to tell him "hush" or " knock it off" when they do this, but you should attempt some positive association training first, so you won't hopefully have to butt heads.
Giving a dog a verbal cue and pairing that with a treat, can be helpful training here. Start with just saying "let's go up" and giving a treat, without being held or touched. The dog will start to pair that cue phrase with yummy good times. Treat everytime you say that. You will eventually progress to saying that when reaching for your dog to be picked up, and then touching them as if you are just about to hoist them up, when they are an inch off the ground, etc, and they will instead be expecting something good from it.
Masakado Shiba Inu www.masakadoshiba.wordpress.com "Common sense isn't so common"
@lindsayt : So what you say works with growling and biting, right? He does it, I think 3 times already when being picked up. Two of which started when my boyfriend picked him up from outside to bring him in at nighttime after he went potty. The one time it happened to me was the day after he did it to my boyfriend, same situation.
I have done that with some of mine, and it worked. If you make being held an enjoyable experience as much as you can, and are giving the dog a cue so it doesn't catch them off guard, it will work. You may also benefit from an in person trainer, as they can see exactly what is going on, and if the manner in which the dog is held is painful to them or not.
Masakado Shiba Inu www.masakadoshiba.wordpress.com "Common sense isn't so common"
The other thing is, puppies may mouth and vocalize when being held. In my experience ShIba pups have limited tolerance of being confined or restrained. If left unchecked, that will be a bigger problem as the dog matures. If you are calm and gentle and consistent with your handling, you have a better chance of gaining the results you want. I find it very effective to shove something in the pups mouth while I am picking them up, either a fun toy or something scrumptious, with a verbal cue in a very happy positive voice, and in a very matter of fact manner with no hesitation.
Masakado Shiba Inu www.masakadoshiba.wordpress.com "Common sense isn't so common"
On a day to day basis, I usually hold him up a lot to make sure he's use to it and not react badly. I do it to take him out potty at nighttime, to give him a massage after he gets excited to see me...along with time out for really bad times (like that one), or to get something out from his mouth if I can't do it with him standing.
From what I know, the first time he did it, it was after he nipped at my boyfriend's foot and he restrained him when he picked Ginko up. Soon after that, when he picked Ginko up from outside, the result was the low growl and biting. So the next day, he did it to me in the same situation with the same result.
The next couple of days I told my boyfriend to ease up on the holding him down and just back away and stop playing with Ginko if he starts nipping (which he has been getting better at if the rest of my family doesn't interfere with my consistency by being inconsistent). Today was the first time he did that growl and bite since that 2nd time. I picked him up when I heard the ruckus and my boyfriend had to let him down from the hard bite. Ginko struggled at first and put the same amount of pressure of a bite he'd give when he's in play mode, but trying to act calm, I took him in and walked towards his pen for a time out. He calmed down after I put him in there and didn't even want to leave a minute after when I opened it up for him. So, I figured he might be bedtime grumps after reading what you wrote since it was around his bedtime.
Also, it might be hard with the trainer thing you suggest since it doesn't happen all the time and he gets picked up by the both of us all the time without a problem. Hopefully, tomorrow he won't be giving me the same reaction.
I think what is so hard for me around this growling/barring teeth issue that recently developed with Dakota is the sense of "betrayal". While I know I can't expect her to never show her "moods", it is disheartening to have your "kid" turn on you like that after all I (we) do for her. I protect her, feed her, provide her with vet care, food, treats, wonderful toys, long walks, warmth, and shelter.... I guess I lose sight of the fact that she is (according to the National Geographic article) almost part Wolf... I do feel lucky though that she has never bitten down hard on my hand as I carry her upstairs to bed. I do try all of the suggestions in this thread, but even the most wonderful of Zuke's peanut butter tricks are not working.. Oh well, this behavior developed out of the blue, maybe it will disappear into the blue? I know her resource guarding did....... At least she doesn't do that anymore. So, I think a lot of what is so upsetting for all of us going through this is the sense of betrayal. I can't imagine how it must be with 2-legged "kids" when this happens. Now I know what a parent means when they say "After all I've done for you..."
Pffft to Zukes, try something really yummy like real meat or cheese, that is only given when being picked up and held, and you will condition this with giving those treats and using your cue phrase. Honestly, further restraining a puppy that is having a tantrum, can make them really hate being held and in puppy's frustration, they may bite. The solution is not to let them get away with bad behavior by setting them back down, but to condition them to tolerate it. It will also depend on the pups age and maturity. There is a correct way to pick a puppy up, where it is safetly restrained and unable to nip, where you will be able to hold him until he settles. This is why I suggest your trainer or breeder be present to show you correct technique.
I have held many ticked off Shiba puppies, and a lot of the time it is just having more patience then they have and waiting them out. Lots of repetitions of being picked up, positive association and praise, and waiting until they settle (while correctly supporting their body), before letting them down again is a good approach.
They don't do this because they want you to feel bad, they do this because they are impatient puppies who want to do their own thing.
Masakado Shiba Inu www.masakadoshiba.wordpress.com "Common sense isn't so common"
Definitely pay attention to how you are picking up/holding them, like @lindsayt says. Hammond would react WAY worse if I picked him up from in front of or behind him and reached over. If I stood next to him and scooped him up, he'd grumble a bit, but not flip out. (Also it depended on where I put my hands. If I put them higher on his sides, he grumbled way more than if I put them lower on his belly/chest)
Same for holding him. It almost seemed like the more "stable" he was, the more he'd fuss. Like, if he could brace a leg against something and push, he'd struggle and freak out. During pass the puppy games this got problematic because the other owners would always get hesitant to hold him, which probably just made him more nervous.
If I held him against my hip/side, with one arm wrapped around him and supporting his belly, he'd be calm. Kind of how celebrities carry around their little purse-dogs. But if I tried to hold him near my chest with his entire side touching me and held him with both arms, you'd think I was made out of needles and electricity the way he'd flail and scream.
It does get better, though. With both age and exposure. He doesn't flail and scream anymore and is even getting to where he hardly grumbles when being picked up. Being held is still not something he loves, but he'll sit there calmly, giving the "I really kind of hate you right now, I hope you know that" side-eye. But he tolerates it, haha. Sometimes he'll even give me kisses when I pick him up.
@Anna Good observations about holding him. I place my left hand under the dogs throat and jaw, and scope around them with my right arm supporting their chest and belly, tucked against my right side.
Masakado Shiba Inu www.masakadoshiba.wordpress.com "Common sense isn't so common"
Most healthy active Shiba pups are squirmy and of course put up a front to see if they can get you to release them. This is where consistency and firm but gentle handling is of utmost importance so you can have better positive contact as a dog matures.
It is inherent in some dog's nature NOT to be held, so adding something rewarding (as lindsayt describes) is going to be beneficial to get over the hurdles. Self sufficiency is the name of the game for Shibas. Puppies like toddlers pretty much have no clue what's good for them either so you have to pretty much guide their activities.
DianaBoston states: "I think what is so hard for me around this growling/barring teeth issue that recently developed with Dakota is the sense of "betrayal". I can't imagine how it must be with 2-legged "kids" when this happens. Now I know what a parent means when they say "After all I've done for you..."
Diana, a lot of people feel as you do when a pet acts up. Step away from the human side a bit. Your dog is simply being a dog. He/she will test particular situations and attempt to do what works (for them), all the good deeds you have done as "super mom" are not mentally cashed as that in your dog's head. Why?.... because he is a dog and you are a human.... Different think and different speak. Shibas generally look to "what's in it for them" and compliance is not initially part of the package. It's best to give him something to think about via distraction, food or squeaky, and use correct secure positioning to pick up and hold in brief spurts. (Avoid Elmyra Duff syndrome so many are want to do.... Shibas, of all breeds out there, more often than not utterly despise gush when in super pup mode). However, handled correctly, over time basic physical contact usually gets better if practiced and is not rough.
Dorapoch: Often a pup will get too worked up and not realize when they need to take a break, thus leading to naughty behaviors. Time outs in a crate are helpful to teach a pup to self calm. I know the use of a crate for our dogs is a great sanity break for me too, when things get a little out of control.
Lots of good advice in this thread, and since anything I would have said has been covered, I'll just comment on Lindsay's comment about ticked off Shiba pups....they can be the grumpiest little monsters in the world! It's hard to believe, but they do grow into wonderful, calm adults, and she's absolutely right about needing to 1) pick your battles (sometimes you've gotta just pick them up and put them in the crate or car or whatever and 2) just keep going, getting them used to the stuff they may not like (being held or whatever) and with patience, it will pay off.
Shiba pups have a very strong sense of self--they know what they want and don't want, and often could utterly care less what WE want, so you've just got to show them there really is something in it for them!
re: holding angry puppies... I would take the palm of my left hand and place against the back of his head, with fingers wrapped around sides and top of head (with his face pointing away from me!)
The right hand scoop and cradle bottom - I'd carry him like he was toxic waste, facing away from me, a writhing mass of rage.
He was wild and I'd carry him like that so I could control the angry head whipping and he couldnt turn around and bite me...
It took many many months for the instinct to bite dissipated..His head whip, teeth flash got smaller and smaller till was like 1/10th of second...hee hee
I did feel hurt sometimes, but look back now and laugh...
Well, we had progress last night at bedtime.. Pulled out a very special treat. We went out to do the last pee. Then as we came in the door, I said "good girl -- let's go to bed" in my most high pitched voice and offered her the treat.. I then headed right up the stairs with her lead on her saying "good girl, good girl".. She did follow me up the stairs.. We only had one little grumpy growl when I had untangle her lead from her feet.. She went right in her crate to a chorus of "good girls" and her favorite treat.. But, yes the head whip and flashing teeth when I picked her up the other nights was very disconcerting, so last night, instead, kept the lead on her and gently nudged her up the stairs with "good girl" "good girl"... Tonight I might try the "pick up again"... And yes, I know what you mean about a writhing mass of rage... Oh, boy....
Why not work on picking her up throughout the day. Make it a positive experience and make sure she expects what you are going to do. If you have someone else in the house with you, have them hold a spoonful of peanut butter (if she likes peanut butter) and pick her up then let her lick the PB while you are holding her.
This way she associates you picking her up with awesome things. :)
Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia. I Wander, I Ride
Yes, I've been doing that too... She is fine with being picked up when she does not think she is going to bed.... It's the going to bed "pick-up" that she does not like.. I should probably try it again tonight - and will.. thanks!
Why not try picking her up and taking her to bed a few times a day? You do not have to put her all the way in the crate, but just make the motions. This way she does not always associate those actions with being locked in her crate.
Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia. I Wander, I Ride
Will definitely try to overcome this problem. I don't think it is the way I pick him up though because I pick him up the same way through out the day and he's perfectly fine. Last time he did it, it was again after pottying at night time before bedtime and I picked him and put him on my lap to wipe his paws and he did it while on my lap. This is where we usually have our morning greet/massage so there's plenty of positive reinforcement there.
Pinpointing reasons for their actions are the hardest thing.
