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Puppy Mills: What they are, ways to work against them
  • tysaaantysaaan
    Posts: 122
    As much as it is trying to be funny, I don't like what the commercial says about GoDaddy. It seems as if they do not care for the well being of animals, I wouldn't be surprised if some puppy mills have their sites hosted by GoDaddy.
  • Kira_KiraKira_Kira
    Posts: 2482
    I was actually offended by the commercial too, if it were a child then people would be going on strike against GoDaddy.com
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  • tysaaantysaaan
    Posts: 122
    I actually sent them emails and signed a petition, hours later this happened.

    https://garage.godaddy.com/godaddy/message-received-loud-clear/

    :) They aren't playing it for the Super Bowl.
  • Kira_KiraKira_Kira
    Posts: 2482
    I'm glad they aren't playing it, but shame on them for thinking that commercial was ok. Wrong on so many levels and sends out the wrong message that it's ok to sell and buy puppies off a website!
    Cynthia, Proudly owned by Kira
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  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 8583
    I was shocked that this company (which, I never really liked anyway and their previous ad campaigns were not all that great either) thought this type of commercial was okay.

    But I was even MORE shocked at how many people thought there was nothing wrong with the commercial or that it was funny. :(

    It goes to show just how little the general population knows or understands about puppy mills and how bad they truly are. This is why forums like this are such great places that teach others about how bad puppy mills are and why you should buy a puppy from a reputable breeder or adopt from a legitimate rescue organization.
    Bella 2Mountains 2Nola 2
    Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia.
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  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    Budweiser did it better at least they showed a small bit of the owner putting lost posters up..
    https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152521276036688
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    Nicole, 5year old Bella(Boxer), and 4year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • Kobe1468Kobe1468
    Posts: 1587
    Been reading some of the articles about this. Some of the comments(that follow) are absolutly fascinating. Seems to be bringing out the best of the rescue vs. reputable(or at least what is a reputable breeder) debate.

    Everything from "There are NO good breeders" to the "Breeders are responsible for ALL health issues" angle, and of course. "Breeders are only in it for the money". So many are unwilling to distinguish between ethical breeding and all 'other' breeding.

    It's worth a good laugh...only these people are serious!!
    "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened."
  • NikkitineNikkitine
    Posts: 776
    As vile as the commercial is, it's all about the shock marketing. Positive or negative, the amount of attention the company has gotten is more than they deserve.

    Most people just don't know what a puppy mill is and the long term effect that buying a puppy from a pet store has. Even when I explain it to some people whom I know purchased from pet stores, I have to show them the videos and documentaries before they start getting it. And even then, they just can't fathom the fact that their precious furbabies could have possibly come from such filthy conditions.

    "My baby has papers to prove she's AKC! And she looks healthy!" or "I have the names of the mom and dad right here with all the registration papers!" so their dog MUST have come from a reputable breeder. I give up when they start getting very defensive and all I want to do is educate them on the matter.

    image
  • Someone on an Akita page I'm on posted this link. Looks like Arkansas has a bill up for vote regulating commercial breeders. I think it looks ok--it defines commercial breeder as someone who has more than 10 breeding females. I think most show/hobby breeders should not be included in this, but even if they were included, I didn't think the requirement were onerous. And Arkansas is another state with a puppy mill problem so I think anything to try to work on that is good.

    Anyway, here is the bill: http://www.arkleg.state.ar.us/assembly/2015/2015R/Bills/HB1620.pdf
  • Kobe1468Kobe1468
    Posts: 1587
    Pretty sad that these bills are even necessary to begin with. Especially when they include terms such as 'Potable water that isn't frozen'!!

    I honestly didn't read through the entire bill. I'm pretty sure it echoes many of the recent bills suggested/passed(that I've read).

    Better than nothing, but nowhere near perfect. Would just be nice to see all commercial breeding being outlawed. In my 'perfect' world, only those who breed 'not for profit' should be allowed. But who am I kidding.

    Unfortunately, the small BYB operations seem to always draw the legit breeders into these matters. Maybe a harder problem to solve. BYB's may not be as sinister as the commercial breeders, but they are producing (for profit) 'less than standard' dogs at a alarming rate.
    "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened."
  • Kobe1468Kobe1468
    Posts: 1587
    Bump...it's been a while!
    "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened."
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    There is anew documentary on puppymills might be interesting to see if it is airing by you.
    Sadly only showing by me is on a weekday and 2 or so hours away. I'll see it when it is out on dvd or on tv.
    http://dogbydogdocumentary.com/
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    Nicole, 5year old Bella(Boxer), and 4year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • Kobe1468Kobe1468
    Posts: 1587
    http://www.citypages.com/news/valley-view-kennel-the-puppy-mill-with-a-family-friendly-front-7553581

    ^^this one really caught my eye. Sort of reminds me of all the Mennonites/Amish who hide their deeds behind the bake stands.

    Just horrid. Never ceases to amaze me!
    "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened."
  • I checked the websites, and they have a page of all their currently available puppies... http://amazenfarmyard.com/puppies-for-sale.php They look so sad. This should be shut down, and the "Haggs" should be placed in prison the same way the keep their dogs.
  • NikkitineNikkitine
    Posts: 776
    I don't know why I even clicked on that link to their webpage. The puppies look so unhealthy and scared.
    image
  • Kira_KiraKira_Kira
    Posts: 2482
    I clicked it too and just wasted 5 minutes of my life looking through it. Awful!!!! :(
    Cynthia, Proudly owned by Kira
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  • AntoinetteAntoinette
    Posts: 887
    I am sickened by what I saw on those websites. Those "Haggs" should face prison time!
  • MojoMojo
    Posts: 77
    sunyata said:

    Mojo said:

    Uh what...? I am unfamiliar with how difficult it is to get new laws? Was this ever anywhere near my point? I understand it's not an easy task but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't be pushing to have it happen.. That also doesn't mean that ultimately it isn't the best solution, unless someone has another(in which case I asked for some earlier). When did I imply that it was easy?



    Not that I want to get more involved in this, but... In your post directly above you stated exactly that:

    Mojo said:

    How would it be hard to create legislation that would make it harder for mill/byb standards to be so poor yet allow good breeders to continue their practice?



    I think the problem @Mojo, is that you do not see your hypocrisy in your "wanting to do more", but refusing to acknowledge that you purchased your own Shiba from a backyard breeder with questionable breeding practices (such as breeding non-standard Shibas from puppy mills and using a known puppy mill registry to register puppies). A lot of people on the forum have made mistakes before the knew better and no one was there to tell them different BEFORE they brought their puppy home. They have learned and tried to help others not make the same mistake.

    This is where the education comes in. People NEED to understand how these breeders are ruining breeds and creating dogs with health and temperament issues that cost buyers thousands in vet bills and unimaginable heartache. As more people learn about responsible breeding practices and what makes reputable breeders so much better than other sources, the less business those other sources will get. They will either have to improve their practices or stop breeding.

    As for what can be done to immediately halt bad breeding practices: STOP BUYING THEIR DOGS. It really is that simple. Take a look at the "hover board" industry. Because of safety issues, major retailers stopped carrying their products. No legislation was enacted, they just stopped buying the products. What is happening? The industry is improving their safety regulations. BAM. The problem is getting solved.

    This really is not the best thread for this conversation... I think further discussion should be moved over to the following thread:
    http://www.shibainuforum.org/forum/discussion/8871/puppy-mills-what-they-are-ways-to-work-against-them/p1



    @sunyata

    You definitely misunderstand my statement. When I say "How would it be hard to create legislation that would make it harder for mill/byb standards to be so poor yet allow good breeders to continue their practice?" This is not my misunderstanding how hard it is for legislation to PASS, it is me asking how the WRITING of that specific legislation would be hard. @pylea was talking about how it would be difficult to draw bright lines in the rules and I was asking how. Taking a response without the context is what is confusing you.

    Ok so yet again you want to bring in your opinion on my personal decisions.. Like I've said before I do not consider them a mill or byb. You can continue to rant all day about your discontent with them as breeders, I personally don't care. Your opinions are your own and you are welcome to them. However your logic is beyond faulty and I'll tell you why. Let's entertain the idea that the breeders I got my puppy from are a mill/byb for a moment, even if they were how is it hypocritical for me to want to do more about the problems of mills/byb when back then I didn't have any idea about their present day practices? If I smoke a cigarette's today and didn't know they cause lung cancer is it hypocritical of me to want to do something about the fact that they cause a serious health issue? What kind of logic is what? In fact I'd say you are doing the methodology a disservice in potentially turning off individuals from wanting to get involved. If I actually cared more about what you have to say than the well being of these animals I'd take your constant attack on a decision I made and your label of me being a hypocrite and never get involved in trying to help better things. Like I have stated earlier though I don't know anyone trying to purchase a Shiba or from any of the breeders listed here.. So that literally leaves me with ALMOST nothing to do based on this methodology you're promoting of JUST educating people.

    I've already addressed the idea that education is going to solve this issue entirely.. I'm not convinced.. I'm not saying it should stop, however I am saying if anyone knows about a movement or something trying to push for a more direct and faster approach I'd love to check it out and show my support for that.

    Like I said, earlier AGAIN.. I doubt anyone is going to byb/mills on purpose to purchase their dogs.. Yes, let us look at the hover board industry. Why are these major retailers not selling their product anymore? The answer is pretty simple, because they can end up in the middle of a lawsuit if they continued.. Do you not understand that the possibility of a lawsuit plays a huge role in this? There is also the point @pylea made earlier in his post where he spoke about how many people have different thoughts on animals.. Some people only see animals as property and some are ok with using them as commodities, so comparing the potential of human suffering/death to other animals is a bit moot when we already know many humans lack concern for animals.


  • MojoMojo
    Posts: 77
    Orange said:

    I have skimmed a lot of this. To be honest, I haven't read in depth anyone posts and I am not choosing anyone's side. However I purchased my dog from a puppymill, would I do it again, NO. Do I regret it... well that is more complicated. I love my dog and would not trade her for anything.

    I thought I had done years of research. I thought I was going through a good breeder. AKC, champion lines, OFA hip eye testing... ect, to a untrained eye good looking adult dogs...the list goes on.

    Then I came here several days before my puppy was to come home. She was paid in full, including flight. I felt attached to this puppy, it wasn't a random puppy, she belonged to me. I had starred at her for hours every day, and dreamed about her personality.

    When I was told she was coming from a puppy mill, I resisted. The red flags were clear but I convinced myself she was in a mysterious "grey" area. She was better than a puppymill, maybe she wasn't perfect but everyone here was snobby for having these redicolus high standards.

    Also I only have 2 days to change my mind, to back out and loose all my money and have no puppy. Maybe I could have filed a dispute and won and got some of my money back. However I felt like either way at that point I was supporting a mill. It was too late.

    Then after she came home and I had the time to dedicate to hours and days and weeks of research to mills, it became clear to me that my new dog was indeed from a mill. That there is no grey area.

    If I originally had ghe right guidance beforehand in puppymill research... because believe me, lack of general shiba research was not the the problem. I would neve have gone through my breeder in the first place. I think most people who have bought from puppymills think the same way. They just get defensive because they love their dog, and sometimes too prideful to admit their mistakes, especially because they often feel attacked.



    @Orange
    I agree with a lot of what you have to say. I'm sorry you had to go through some rough moments and some surprising realizations. I don't even have a clue how I'd feel if my dog had any sort of issue.. Honestly my lack of renouncing my breeds as garbage has less to do with them or my dog and more to do with the practices that breeders that are praised in many circles(here included) do themselves.. Some of the biggest highlights continuously mentioned for myself were they have a website and they ship the dogs.. Both these points are horrible in my opinion and do nothing to convince me they certainly are breeding unhealthy, don't care for their dogs or the dogs they allow families to purchase. So while I can definitely offer them some constructive criticism on how they could potentially improve, I just don't think because they have room to grow they are god awful.
    Post edited by Mojo at 2016-01-06 18:21:13
  • NikkitineNikkitine
    Posts: 776
    @Mojo - I'm curious to know, if you don't consider your breeders to be a byb, what would you consider them as? Not to argue either, I know we discussed grey areas and such, I'm just genuinely interested in your opinion and want to know what your definition of a mill/byb is and what reasons you might have to feel so strongly against it.
    image
  • MojoMojo
    Posts: 77
    @Nikkitine

    From my perspective a mill/byb emphasize profit over well being. This means less than adequate food, socialization(human, dog, and other animals), water, health/vet care, inbreeding, exercise, etc. These seem to be the main talking points and why they should be frowned upon. The breeders I got Mojo from had none of these issues and even from a breeder that is highly praised, one or some of these issues could be ran into especially depending on who you ask. The main reason I don't currently approve of how things are done is that it leaves far too much wiggle room for people to do a poor job yet face little to no repercussions. I love animals, always have and as I've grown along the years I've seen time after time this disconnect that humans have in thinking humans are not animals too.. This leads to this arrogance and lack of concern for the treatment of other animals.. In a country like the USA where the promotion of having ideas and opinions of all kinds are accepted as a right, I feel that while education is helpful it doesn't eliminate certain problems altogether.. This mill/byb/farm problem is one of them. If we really take a step back and look at society as a whole, we can see that education isn't going to erase the problem altogether. We still have things like racism, sexism, homophobia, etc despite education being more easily accessible. That is why I was hoping maybe someone knew of something I was unaware of, that was more immediate. Something that I could help promote and support because if it were to gain enough traction it would have not only have an impact immediately, it removes the possibility of the problem persisting in the future.
    Post edited by Mojo at 2016-01-06 20:46:31
  • koyukikoyuki
    Posts: 1244
    @mojo another main main difference of a BYB and a reputable breeder is breeding to better the breed- the breeder you purchased your dog from breeds multiple breeds and the Shiba 'studs' are far from the standard, meaning they are not producing dogs in line with what an ethical breeder is aiming for
    Koyuki - red female
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  • NikkitineNikkitine
    Posts: 776
    @Mojo - What you described are what puppy mills are, the large scale operations that you mainly see being documented on television and articles. Backyard breeders, though, can range from simple hobby breeders to your next door neighbor breeding their dogs. Tali is from my friend who wanted to try and have a litter of puppies just for the experience. In no way did she not provide the best care she could in terms of the things you described. As @koyuki pointed out, she wasn't breeding for the betterment of the breed. Though she cared for all her dogs deeply and made sure all the puppies went to good homes. But, she is still a backyard breeder through and through. BYBs can still genuinely give the best care for their dogs, but that still wouldn't make them reputable nor ethical.

    I found some info on your breeder but I moved it to the appropriate thread here:

    http://www.shibainuforum.org/forum/discussion/10035/shiba-breeders-discussion-thread/p17
    image
    Post edited by Nikkitine at 2016-01-06 22:23:21
  • MojoMojo
    Posts: 77
    @Koyuki - Indeed they do breed multiple breeds a point which isn't really relevant imo. I've seen two pictures of males that they own and only their red was used as the main "stud". From the one photo they display there I don't think he's far from the "standard". I can't see a definite reason for him to not breed if he's healthy but that's just me. I honestly don't want to get into some long-winded debate about this aspect as I've already viewed one previously that I believe Kira Kai was his name brought up and that turned pretty nasty. It's another opinion thing is what I took from it and this is entirely besides the point of the original discussion.
  • pyleapylea
    Posts: 235
    Like I said in the other thread I don't want to discuss this issue anymore, but in response to the male pronouns, I do feel compelled to let you know that I am a woman and I'm 99.999% sure Kira_Kira is as well. ;;)
  • MojoMojo
    Posts: 77
    pylea said:

    Like I said in the other thread I don't want to discuss this issue anymore, but in response to the male pronouns, I do feel compelled to let you know that I am a woman and I'm 99.999% sure Kira_Kira is as well. ;;)



    That's fine, no ones pushing you. It's a forum, where much about an individual is anonymous. Are you really surprised..? I mean I guess I could go the extra mile to make everything gender neutral but seeing as you won't even continue our line of discourse is it really worth mentioning?
    Post edited by Mojo at 2016-01-07 05:36:15
  • LilikoiLilikoi
    Posts: 1269
    I've learned so much about puppy mills and byb's just from joining this forum and doing research when I decided I was ready to get my own pup. Before I definitely saw byb's as not such a bad thing. I thought of them as like hobbyists that enjoyed raising puppies haha... I had a friend who was pretty involved with breeding their dachshund and selling their puppies to locals, and it seemed innocent enough. But now I understand that it isn't bettering the breed and that there really isn't a strict standard as far as temperaments and testing for health problems go. To say the least. It's like a game of the sims or something at best haha. I'm very glad I didn't fall into a trap of a puppy mill, I wouldn't have known what to look out for.. I didn't think of puppy mills as an online business, I thought of them as like people that post ads in the newspaper and on petfinder websites and put up posters, but don't actually have a website of their own. How naive is that haha. i think a lot of the problem is that a lot of people don't see the harm in it, and are just kind of oblivious to it like I was in the past.
    Post edited by Lilikoi at 2016-01-07 06:50:17
  • Sometimes I'm dumb. This is the proper thread to post this response (from the shiba breeders discussion thread).


    @mojo - unless you, or someone you know, is a multi-millionaire with similar friends who is willing to spend a lot of money, the legislative route (in the U.S. anyway) is probably not going to go so well. The only organizations with lobbyists (which sadly is the most effective way to get legislation passed these days) are basically puppy mills and PETA. PETA's stance on pet ownership is one that many find problematic (check their numbers and you'll see most of their money goes towards tryin to get legislation passed and marketing, they're not actually involved with rescue and lump in all breeders together essentially). The puppy mill industry has comparatively tons of money behind it to try to quash any restrictions. They even have a glossy wuarterly publication extolling their virtues (no joke, I wish I had kept the link somewhere so I could post it now).

    As for USDA inspectors, from what I recall there are very few inspectors for the huge numbers of places they need to inspect. Again the problem is an economic one. The USDA is not privately funded so unless there is a push to allocate more funds towards hiring more inspectors, increased inspections are unlikely to happen unless you can get a bunch of lobbyists who can throw more weight around than the other interest groups vying for cash in the national budget.

    Your best bet is to try to get some restrictions enacted via the state and part of the reaon that no one has answered you is because state laws on things like mills obviously differ state to state and therefore the actions one can take with regards to legislation differ. If you really think legislation is the best way to go, why don't you start researching what the laws are in your particular state and the potential local advocacy groups trying to get things done. Start a thread. Maybe it will inspire others looking for a solution to research and post the particular laws for their state and there will be a handy new resource for those looking to get into the legislation route. There is already a pre-existing thread about the puppy lemon laws that were passed in NJ a while ago as well as one about the outlawing of selling dogs and cats in pet shops in another state.

    With regards to the health papers - yes some places fake them or don't even bother sending them at all. Check enough mill puppy testimonials and you'll see plenty of people that never received health papers. There are also plenty of unscrupulous vets willing to turn a blind eye to horrendous practices to make a dollar. Many pet stores have a "referred" vet that you can take your pet store puppy to and get a discount or a free first visit. Those vets (and others) don't hesitate to support mills and pet shops if they get monetary compensation. As for the faking of papers, one of the most egregious online shiba mills finally experienced a hiccup a few years ago when they got charged with altering health certificates. There's a thread somewhere in here about that too. The kennel was called Right Puppy Kennels though they are now operating under Myshiba.com.


    http://www.salisburypost.com/2013/02/09/kennel-worker-charged-with-altering-health-certificates-for-puppies/

    http://www.salisburypost.com/2015/01/14/former-right-puppy-kennel-owner-kevin-settineri-faces-new-charges/

    Also a change.org petition going and sadly they are struggling to get 1k in signatures over the couse of 6 months. Things aren't looking positive.

    https://www.change.org/p/patrick-mccrory-richard-burr-alma-adams-close-blustag-tamaskan-a-horrible-puppy-mill-in-salisbury-nc/u/11453024

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