For all new members, please check out the thread New to the Forum? What to do and forum guidelines.
Puppy Mills: What they are, ways to work against them
  • There is the problem, the fine is only $12,000. There is no real punishment. For someone who has that many dogs and is making that much money, its simply the cost of doing business.
  • Kobe1468Kobe1468
    Posts: 1587
    @Banjo...you are absolutely correct. It's a little more than a slap on the wrist. I will have to review Quebecs puppy mill laws, as they recently passed some harsher legislation.

    I'll do my best to follow this one. Another F-story in Quebecs reputation as being the puppy mill capital of Canada!

    "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened."
  • does anyone one know about the [breeder]? my friend is looking into buying a puppy from her. [link removed as per forum rules ~ mod.]
    Post edited by curlytails at 2014-06-27 23:08:24
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4786
    NO

    check out the How to Spot a Puppy Mill thread
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
  • shibamistressshibamistress
    Posts: 5171
    Yep, I said this in the other thread. Commericial breeder/puppy mill.
  • The HSUS published a list with descriptions of 101 Puppy Mills nationwide. I am posting the link here:

    http://www.humanesociety.org/assets/pdfs/pets/puppy_mills/101-puppy-mills-report-2014.pdf

    To the mods-- maybe this list actually needs to be a permanent entry so that folks can refer to it.
  • I don't know if we can make it a permanent entry, but good find, nonetheless, and I'll just add it to the opening post in this thread, too, so it is there.
  • Kobe1468Kobe1468
    Posts: 1587
    Excellent link @sukoshi's mom!

    I posted a link to a data base awhile back, but I really like this one. With explanations of just how f***ed up and sinister these a**holes really are!

    Did I miss any explanatives?!! Pretty sure I did!
    "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened."
  • Kobe1468Kobe1468
    Posts: 1587
    More potentially good news in Ontario, Canada. Guelph, On is well on its way in banning the sale of pets in pet stores. The most recent was Waterloo, On. Guelph would raise the count to ten(I believe) major municipalities that support the ban.

    http://m.mykawartha.com/news-story/4766781-guelph-contemplates-bylaw-to-restrict-the-sale-of-pets-in-pet-stores/

    There is also a big push to get Kijiji to stop allowing pet sale ads. This seems to be a tougher fight, but I'm hoping one that can be won.

    I often see/hear people say this is too big of a problem(puppy mills). Stopping a pet store from selling pets won't make a difference. I beg to differ. Just think about how many potential sales of puppies are being stopped because of (at least) nine major cities in Ontario have banned the sale of pets.

    It's not the end all...it's a start.
    "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened."
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    That is great news hope others follow suit. Pet stores should never sell dogs or cats too much risk on impulse buying..


    One thing to host a rescue to bring pets to meet public and find homes, but not ones from puppymills..

    I see commercials for this stupid puppymill pet store in Indy and omg the commercial irks me.. So glad there is no puppymill pet shops in my area currently.
    Photobucket
    Nicole, 5year old Bella(Boxer), and 4year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 3495
    @Kobe1468

    It really irks me when people think it's too big of a problem to solve. You have to start somewhere to get anywhere in life. Attitudes must be changed. Most of the pet stores in San Francisco that I know of are shut down, because of those that realize every small step counts towards a bigger goal. Stopping puppy mills.
  • Kobe1468Kobe1468
    Posts: 1587
    @Bootz...I can't agree more! Thankfully we have this platform to help to educate!
    "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened."
  • Kira_KiraKira_Kira
    Posts: 2482
    I had honestly never been in a legitimate pet store that sold puppies, specifically mill puppies until I lived on the West Coast. Most pet stores in Virginia (at least in the cities I've lived in) don't even carry dogs or cats except for shelter animals that are for adoption. I am so thankful to have never grown up in an area that sold many mill puppies.
    Cynthia, Proudly owned by Kira
    imageimage
    Kira the Cream Shiba Inu 吉良 - Facebook Page
    Follow Kira on Instagram! Kira_the_cream_shiba_inu
    Kira's Life Story & Photo Thread - Chronicles of Kira

    “Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole.”
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    Your Lucky Kira_kira.. Even as a kid I felt sad for the puppies and felt it was wrong to sell them that way.. I didn't knew they came from such deplorable places like mills till I was bit older.

    Luckily there is no pet shop puppies in Lafayette IN that I know of. Sadly there are petlands, uncle bills and many others in Indianapolis and other areas.. one guy's place was shut down his pet store was in bad condition fish and reptiles in bad shape and dogs in bad shape too.. The owner didn't seem to see the issue of why his store wasn't OK.. Umm fish dying left in right. not good environments for reptiles.. i forgot what was issue with the puppies.
    Photobucket
    Nicole, 5year old Bella(Boxer), and 4year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • a pet store opened up on my way to work.... Sadly, its a nice store with lots of variety and the owner spent a ton building it out. Can't see it surviving though given that it sells pets. I'd have a little bit more compassion/understanding if the dogs were at least walked a few times a day and made comfortable.
  • I get so heated when people consistently "support" mills by posting pics on Shiba Facebook pages trying to "save" puppies at pet stores but don't see the big picture! (Even though they openly admit that puppy mills are bad)

    I interjected a few times but stopped, not worth it to feed the trolls but the one thing that we can do as advocates is attempt to educate others. Knowledge is power.
    Cynthia, Proudly owned by Kira
    imageimage
    Kira the Cream Shiba Inu 吉良 - Facebook Page
    Follow Kira on Instagram! Kira_the_cream_shiba_inu
    Kira's Life Story & Photo Thread - Chronicles of Kira

    “Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole.”
  • @Kira_Kira ... Are we looking at the same thread on the Shiba Holics group..?
  • Yes we are @RurouniInuGirl

    I had to double check typing your name a couple times, I hope I tagged you properly.
    Cynthia, Proudly owned by Kira
    imageimage
    Kira the Cream Shiba Inu 吉良 - Facebook Page
    Follow Kira on Instagram! Kira_the_cream_shiba_inu
    Kira's Life Story & Photo Thread - Chronicles of Kira

    “Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole.”
  • Thanks for bumping this up....And did you link this thread on Shibaholics? (I can't ever connect screen names to real names! ha!)

    Anyway, yeah, it was making me crazy. And it is also against the rules of that particular page too because I know the creator of the page also feels really strongly about puppy mills....

    And I wish I knew more concrete ways to shut them down!
  • I have the same issue with remembering actual names vs screen or dog's names.

    It wasn't me that linked this thread, but I'm thankful for whomever the member is that did. (I'm Cynthia)

    This thread has an enormous amount of good links and information on puppy mills which ultimately will create a demand for change. There is an enormous amount of power in numbers, educating people is the crucial first step. After all, that is how social change begins- with education.

    Thank you for starting this thread initially @shibamistress and sharing your story. Your Bel's story is a catlyst for the change that needs to happen. And the sadder story is the one we never hear - the dogs that remain silent in cages that never had the opportunity to have a happy ending like pet store puppies do.
    Cynthia, Proudly owned by Kira
    imageimage
    Kira the Cream Shiba Inu 吉良 - Facebook Page
    Follow Kira on Instagram! Kira_the_cream_shiba_inu
    Kira's Life Story & Photo Thread - Chronicles of Kira

    “Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole.”
  • Oh, now I know who you are! :) I do always enjoy your posts! :)

    And you're right...I agree that the sadder story is the dogs in the mills that never get to come out...you said that very eloquently, and it's true.

    I wish more people would think of them, other than just the cute puppies.
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4786
    Cynthia, I also enjoy your posts!
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
  • Yeah, I don't know how everyone keeps their cool. I had to edit my post 5 times to try to make it sound less snarky. I still don't think I succeeded. >_>
  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 8583
    I woke up to that post on my FB feed this morning. It blows my mind that people can not understand the principles of economics. It also really annoys me that people still seem to believe the myth that pet store puppies that are not sold are immediately euthanized.

    I kind of wanted to ask the people who were for buying the puppy how they would feel if the store send the pup back to the mill to be used as a breeder... If they would still feel the need to "rescue" the pup or if they thought that was a fine life for the pup to live... Because if they still felt the need to "rescue" the pup, then they need to also rescue all of the dogs being used as breeders in mills across the entire world. :-/
    Bella 2Mountains 2Nola 2
    Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia.
    I Wander, I Ride
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4786
    It looks like it was deleted...
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
  • That would have been a great question, sunyata! And I did expect the thread to be deleted--wendy steele has been pretty clear that she will delete threads that advertise mill or bybs, so good for her, but on the other hand, I also wish she'd post an announcement about why she did it (or if another admin did it) so that the point would be made again, rather than just having the thread disappear with no comment.
  • I actually have a question about spotting a puppy mill... What makes it a puppy mill? When does it go from respectable breeder to suspect practices?

    We visited an AKC breeder of merit when we were doing our due puppy diligence, and when we got there they had dogs in crates upon crates lined up in their garage - four rows high (approx 18-20 crates & travel crates). They also had 16-18 kennels lining their property with 1-2 dogs in each... Granted we weren't invited to view the dogs in the kennels or the crates, they brought the ones they wanted to show us inside the house... They also had 8 puppies (four that were 4weeks, four that were six weeks) inside. I've visited a few kennels, but that just seemed excessive. What's that... close to 50-60 dogs on site. How many is 'normal' for a breeder to have? They suggested all their "excess" (their word, not mine) dogs were due to the fact that they will take back dogs that people don't want (and yes I know that's a good practice and I definitely approve of that practice), but what kind of life is it for those dogs that are stuck in those garage crates day in and out? Would a respectable breeder attempt to place returned dogs in good homes?

    I'm just curious, because I don't want to think something is wrong if it's normal... but I also don't want to fund a puppy mill...

    [edited because my math is bad]
    Post edited by lauratherose at 2014-09-02 18:25:58
  • http://www.shibainuforum.org/forum/discussion/8015/forum-game-spot-the-puppy-mill-the-resurrection#Item_622

    Better to pose the question in this thread. It is a long thread but I think that you would get quite a bit of utility out of it if you start reading from page one.
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4786
    @lauratherose

    That is not normal, and this is why people need to be cautious of Breeder of Merit designation without visiting in person. Sadly I know of several breeders across the US that are reported to keep dogs this way.
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
  • Yes, I second the idea to go check out the puppy mill thread (how to spot one). And breeder of merit is kind of a useless designation, as it has very minimal standards:

    http://www.akc.org/breederofmerit/requirements.cfm

    I have bought Akitas from two breeders of merit. One is wonderful, and I have a great and healthy dog from her. One looked fine--no problems at her kennel, and she was well respected, but she was utterly unresponsive when my dog ended up having rather serious health issues. So really, the breeder of merit thing tells you nothing, as Lauratherose as discovered.
  • Kobe1468Kobe1468
    Posts: 1587
    Just a quick thought...I don't necessarily think seeing dogs in kennels is, in itself, a bad thing or a red flag. Many breeders breed for function, as well as standard, and participate in activities with their multiple dogs(good example=Husky breeder who is active in dog sledding). Just because you see several dogs in kennels doesn't necessarily mean they are all breeding stock.(even if they are, it's still not an immediate red flag...imo)[The crates stacked in a garage is different, and I would be more concerned about that].

    Most important is to ask the breeder about why they have dogs out back in kennels, inspect the kennels yourself for cleanliness and condition(of dogs as well!). Ask how often they get out for exercise, and how much human activity they experience. If the breeder isn't willing to let you take a closer look....walk.

    It's SO important to visit the breeder...Breeder of Merit, heck even being a member of a breed club is no guarantee. One of the many reasons why I would never buy a puppy via the internet.

    Anyway, probably off topic by now!
    "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened."
  • Oh, the kennels were definitely not what set off the bells... it was the fact we were not allowed to walk around and look at the dogs in the kennels or the kennels themselves. I grew up in a family that raised hunting dogs, kennels and their purposes are something I can appreciate.

    I used to accompany my father on trips to meet Llewellin setter breeders and puppies, and I'd never seen something like the garage, which made me wonder... What is a puppy mill - I've always heard about them and how horrible they are... But what distinguishes a mill from a breeder who comes highly recommended, but their practices make you go.. huh? How do you work against someone that, to you, seems to be questionable, but the AKC gives them a big blue ribbon and a badge to put on their website?

    I didn't know if there was maybe a difference in the amount of dogs that a Shiba breeder might have vs the Setters I'm used to. I've never met (but there are probably some out there) a LLewellin breeder that has more than 20 dogs, including the puppies.

    I did ask the question on how often they got exercise and that was another red flag - the dogs were only let out of their crate for an hour or so a day, every other day.... Personally, I cannot imagine Nym only playing for an hour a day, let alone every other. We play frisbee, chase, fetch, go on walks, run up stairs, etc... and she still does Shiba 500s before bed every night. She'd be hella frustrated with only an hour every other day.

    For me there were too many red flags to feel comfortable to go further down the puppy funnel with this breeder, which is why we did not go with them. I was just wondering if that was considered reputable or bordering or mill, because I've never seen a mill in the flesh to really know the true difference.
  • I think what you ran into was a breeder who had questionable housing practices, and who you disagreed with how they were handling their dogs, and that's a good enough reason to not buy a dog from them. I'm of the opinion that I should only give my money to people whose practices I at least mostly agree with--because there is also supposed to be a lifetime relationship with the breeder, and I would prefer to that to be with someone who I trust. I don't mean agree on everything: I may disagree about training or food or something, but overall, I want to see that the breeder is someone who I can feel good about buying a dog from.

    This breeder and breeders like them, are not puppy mills. Puppy mills are commercial breeders, who make their living off dogs which are, basically, livestock. Commercial breeders may have 50, 100, 200 dogs. They almost always have a variety of dogs they breed too (like more than 2!) They are often usda licensed. They are different--check out the "spot the puppy mill" thread for more info.

    This is a breeder whose husbandry practices you disagreed with, and as you decided, there is no reason to purchase from someone who you don't feel good about.
  • zandramezandrame
    Posts: 1106
    @lauratherose, it definitely can be difficult to spot a puppy mill sometimes! That's why we have the "Spot the mill" thread, where the forum can analyze specific breeders. It's probably a good idea that you post there, so others can avoid this breeder too.

    http://www.shibainuforum.org/forum/discussion/8015/forum-game-spot-the-puppy-mill-the-resurrection/p1

    Or the general breeder thread, if you think it's more appropriate
    http://www.shibainuforum.org/forum/discussion/10035/shiba-breeders-discussion-thread/p1
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4786
    That hurts my heart to imagine the lives of those Shibas being in crates so much...
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    I feel same way Lindsay sad. :(

    1 hour of exercise a day or every other day? Geez!

    Saya and Bella would probably gone insane if they lived like that. Bella especially she needs at least an hour of running or more if we just walk.. plus being in crate seems cramped. :( I don't mind it for traveling, or staying in when dog is not good enough in the house, but to be in it all the time is nuts.

    Saya more calmer, but she needs her exercise too.

    I haven't been online much so missed the thread. Glad it was deleted.. What was it about some member promoting a puppymill or pet shop?

    I feel sorry for these puppies in the stores, but even more for the parent's who are still living in horrible conditions. Those are the dogs needing rescue. Wish the whole business would be shut down.





    Photobucket
    Nicole, 5year old Bella(Boxer), and 4year old Saya(Shiba inu)


  • It's a great step, and I'm happy to hear about it!

    It won't likely do much to stop puppy mills, though, which are USDA licensed businesses. In other words, not "cruel," just business, with dogs as livestock.

  • Here's a video put out by DCSIR about what puppy mills are. Nothing new, but it's short and makes the point, and I'm including it here as a reference, because it might be useful to show someone who doesn't understand what mills are and how dogs live in them (and it's not horribly graphic either, so it's a good "intro" to the subject):



    Also, please go check out this link, because four Shiba Inu rescues just went to an auction to try to pull 43 Shibas from mills. I don't know how many they were able to get, but they will need donations to help with vet bills and costs, to get these dogs into new homes:

    http://www.shibainuforum.org/forum/discussion/13709/shibas-and-akitas-at-auction-donations-to-rescues-needed#Item_6
  • Kobe1468Kobe1468
    Posts: 1587
    Another very good video. Thx for sharing. I just hope people will take the time to watch and consider.

    "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened."
  • This was already posted further back in this thread, but it certainly wouldn't hurt to repost it, because of the recent rescue of dogs from puppy mills. This animal cops episode focuses on a raid on an Amish puppy mill, but it also talks about what USDA certification brings, and what it means (it's till horrible). It's a good video, though hard to watch. There are Shibas that were rescued in this video. It's a good education on what puppy mills are and what kind of life those dogs were saved from.

  • Kobe1468Kobe1468
    Posts: 1587
    For anybody in Ontario, Canada, I encourage you to review this organization. They are doing some great work in the fight against puppy mills.

    http://www.pawsolutions.org/

    "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened."
  • Kobe1468Kobe1468
    Posts: 1587
    Saw this today. It's a bit sloppily written...but has some good info.

    http://www.chicagonow.com/raining-cats-dogs/2014/12/designer-dogs-1500-mutt/

    I do like that the article suggests there is a very distinct difference between these purpose bred designer 'breeds'(puppy mill madness), as opposed to the 'mutts' out there that are a product of irresponsible accidents.
    "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened."
  • Think I'll just bump this thread up!
  • And here is a pretty heartbreaking video about a puppy mill puppy. This is why we're against them:
  • Kira_KiraKira_Kira
    Posts: 2482
    So sad, what a wonderful owner for doing all that she could to keep her baby happy. My heart broke and melted simultaneously... :(( :x
    Cynthia, Proudly owned by Kira
    imageimage
    Kira the Cream Shiba Inu 吉良 - Facebook Page
    Follow Kira on Instagram! Kira_the_cream_shiba_inu
    Kira's Life Story & Photo Thread - Chronicles of Kira

    “Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole.”
  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 8583
    Dammit @Shibamistress ! Now I am all teary at work. She reminds me so much of Bella. :'(

    But in all seriousness, that is so sad, but unfortunately so common with puppy mill pups. :( Thanks for sharing.

    Bella 2Mountains 2Nola 2
    Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia.
    I Wander, I Ride
  • OMG... That Shiba is such a trooper, and the owner a gem.

    My eyes are sooooo teary.

  • knnwangknnwang
    Posts: 645

    View on YouTube

    OMG! This is why research is required before buying from the internet.

    Funny spoof of the Budweiser commercial.

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

In this Discussion

Who's Online (1)