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Puppy Mills: What they are, ways to work against them
  • poltergeistpoltergeist
    Posts: 426
    That is just so f*cking disturbing. Ugh, sickening.
    image
  • Kobe1468Kobe1468
    Posts: 1587
    Some good news:

    http://my.chicagotribune.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-79518470/

    I know it's not the end all, but it's a start!

    Good job Chicago!
    "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened."
  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 3495
    @Curlytails

    Not sure if you're part of the meet up group...but I just saw a posting today that I found rather disturbing. (i hope its not considered offtopic, move if needed)

    From the meet up group organizer:

    "I have gotten lots of inquiries over the last few months in regard to breeding Shibas and finding other owners looking to breed their Shibas as well.

    If you have a Shiba that you are interested in breeding now or later, feel free to reach out to me and I can link you up with either someone else interested in breeding or with someone who has successfully bred Shibas so they can share their experience with you."

    Thats just a portion of the e-mail she sent out to the 100+ members in the group.
    Essentially she is stepping up to play "matchmaker" so people can breed their Shibas which to me is essentially producing BYB puppies since no health testing is required...

    How would you approach this? I really want to say something as I think its a VERY VERY bad idea. But at the same time, I know it will trigger some nasty responses since people "only want a puppy" because they love their current Shiba, etc etc.
  • curlytailscurlytails
    Posts: 2779
    @Bootz Is this part of the meetup.com group? If so, I don't get discussion post notifications. I get events notifications, but I think I've only attended one official meetup since it was at FF, heh.

    Well, California isn't exactly fertile grounds for puppy mills (given state laws, and land is too expensive!)... but that's still kind of upsetting. If you don't say something, I would hope/expect that another of the 100+ members would. Anyway, I don't think I've found the post in question? If that really was the organizer, I'd probably just tell her I'm leaving the group, and why I don't feel I can support it.

    Maybe this discussion is better continued in the NorCal/Bay Area meetup thread... or one of the Breeder Discussion threads.
    image
    Bowdu 寶肚 (Shiba) and Bowpi 寶媲 (Basenji) with M.C.
  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 3495
    @curlytails Yeah...its the meetup.com group. She actually spent a mass bcc e-mail to all the members... :( And since its 400+ people...I'm pretty certain she'll have a bunch of people interested in "making puppies"

    Yeah this is a gray area...lol. Didn't know where to post it!
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4785
    Bootz, I was alerted to this yesterday and yes, it is appalling. The FB group Bay Area Shibas also had a similar post soliciting for stud dogs for a RESCUE Shiba girl, with no health testing, from someone who is supposedly "very involved" with rescue. I was even more appalled when I saw that this meetup group is sponsored monetarily by Nevada Shiba Rescue and National Shiba Rescue. I host the largest Shiba meetup in the world (Seattle Shiba Meetup) and I can tell you we get lots of requests for things like this, but as a large breed meetup group, I feel it is also our responsibility to role model good breeding practices and promote rescue and responsible breeding. Bay Area Meetup isn't a small meet group either, so I feel it is particularly irresponsible of Cynthia the organizer to take rescue dollars and then use them to set up a meeting for flagrant backyard breeding purposes. The good thing is that National Shiba Rescue is now aware of this and is taking action/discussion.
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
  • lindsayt said:

    Bootz, I was alerted to this yesterday and yes, it is appalling. The FB group Bay Area Shibas also had a similar post soliciting for stud dogs for a RESCUE Shiba girl, with no health testing, from someone who is supposedly "very involved" with rescue. I was even more appalled when I saw that this meetup group is sponsored monetarily by Nevada Shiba Rescue and National Shiba Rescue. I host the largest Shiba meetup in the world (Seattle Shiba Meetup) and I can tell you we get lots of requests for things like this, but as a large breed meetup group, I feel it is also our responsibility to role model good breeding practices and promote rescue and responsible breeding. Bay Area Meetup isn't a small meet group either, so I feel it is particularly irresponsible of Cynthia the organizer to take rescue dollars and then use them to set up a meeting for flagrant backyard breeding purposes. The good thing is that National Shiba Rescue is now aware of this and is taking action/discussion.



    This is appalling! Glad to hear, though, that the National Shiba Rescue is discussing it I'm sure the the Nev. Shiba rescue and the national one would not want to support a group that is soliciting for what is basically backyard breeding. That really sucks!
  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 3495
    @lindsayt

    I actually didn't know the Bay Area meet up group was sponsored by those groups...but i'm glad i posted on this forum, Otherwise, I probably would have just left the group like @curlytails said...after sending a bad e-mail of course to lecture the organizer ;)

    Aside from keeping the meetup.com group active/open...what else does Cynthia even need funding for? *just curious now*

    You cannot believe how relieved I am right now.... this forum definitely changed my life lol.
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4785
    Meetup now charges dues. I pay for the dues out of my pocket, which are about $140 a year instead of charging members any fees. You also have the option of getting sponsors to pay the dues.
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
  • curlytailscurlytails
    Posts: 2779
    Well, color me truly embarrassed that I thought those involved with this kerfluffle "got" the mission of rescue. I even put in kind words and money on his behalf once. I am appalled and confused and fear that I have misjudged. I'm not leaving or saying anything just yet, because I'm too upset to respond productively.

    Nevertheless, it is blindingly clear to me that American Shiba rescue carries a HUGE burden, built on the backs of puppy mill pedigrees -- including one of the mill names on the female that I saw being pimped out via FB. My point of recognition: that mill was into Basenjis as well, and flooded B-rescue with castoffs years back. They are still discussed, years later, as being one of the worst of the worst, doggy-hell on earth. It's really difficult for me to imagine what those pups went through to get to their loving homes, and how many they had to leave behind.
    image
    Bowdu 寶肚 (Shiba) and Bowpi 寶媲 (Basenji) with M.C.
    Post edited by curlytails at 2014-03-06 04:32:00
  • zandramezandrame
    Posts: 1106
    Huh, I totally didn't get that email from the organizer... then again, it may have been trapped by my spam filter. But I did see the new thread from @lindsayt on how to pick a breeder! ;)

    I've seen individual members post stuff like that before, including one yesterday on the SD meetup, looking to stud out his dog. Flagged it. People seem to think meetup means "pimpyourdog"
  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 3495
    @lindsayt I was under the same impression with Cynthia, I thought she paid the fees out of pocket...but to find that she's supported by money from Shiba rescue groups? :( that is just wrong.
  • Saw this posted by a good Shiba breeder as information. It's a list of known puppy mills in Ohio. I'll also post it in the auctions thread.

    http://www.holmescountyexposed.com/Holmes Co Kennels.pdf

  • curlytailscurlytails
    Posts: 2779
    Interesting, @shibamistress. I've definitely seen a lot of those names in auction catalogs. And no, it has never escaped my notice that so many are situated in Millersburg.

    I wonder, what's up with the red names the strike-outs?
    image
    Bowdu 寶肚 (Shiba) and Bowpi 寶媲 (Basenji) with M.C.
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4785
    So in regards to the Bay Area meetup group, I shared the "How to Find a Responsible Breeder" page from the NSCA, and it was deleted. Shocker.
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
  • lindsayt said:

    So in regards to the Bay Area meetup group, I shared the "How to Find a Responsible Breeder" page from the NSCA, and it was deleted. Shocker.



    That's pretty annoying. :(

    @Curlytails....I don't know. I just found this list via FB. Tintown Shibas had posted it.
  • curlytailscurlytails
    Posts: 2779
    @lindsayt No, it's still there in the discussion section. I think you've been removed from the group, as it says it's been posted by "A former member"?
    image
    Bowdu 寶肚 (Shiba) and Bowpi 寶媲 (Basenji) with M.C.
  • Oh, removed from the group for posting something about good breeding practices. Nice. :(
  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 3495
    Uh ohhhhhhhs so what's the update with the big bosses vs Cynthia and the meet up group?
  • curlytailscurlytails
    Posts: 2779
    @Bootz Probably best to continue in the NorCal meetup thread. But I don't have an answer for you.
    image
    Bowdu 寶肚 (Shiba) and Bowpi 寶媲 (Basenji) with M.C.
  • RikkaRikka
    Posts: 1501
    Ugh, ugh, ugh. Hearing about all of this and the meetup groups playing matchmaker has me feel nauseated.
    image
    Lauren, living with a 4 y/o Shiba named after a scientist. ☆
  • Further back in the thread, I posted a link to a study about how mill puppies often have problems simply because of being born to stressed mothers. This link also talks about how fearful dogs produce fearful puppies, and how difficult it can be to get past that, no matter how well raised they may be later in life. Something to think about with mill dogs: http://www.usdaa.com/article.cfm?newsid=2515
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    Gross about that meet up group! Especially if the shiba rescue pays it's dues.
    I sure hope this meet up does some type of fundraising, auction, or something to give thanks to the rescue.

    IMO rescue should stop paying dues if the meet up does this crazy action.

    Sad they took down link on how find good breeder.
    Reminds me of this one shiba group on FB where there is litters advertised a lot. one person's hose looked like it would be on hoarders show. not good environment for a puppy or even dog with all the clothes, box, and stuff.

    I hope situation improves on this meet up.
    Photobucket
    Nicole, 5year old Bella(Boxer), and 4year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • bumping this, because a lot of the recent conversation in the "spot the puppy mill" thread belongs in this thread, actually.
  • Kobe1468Kobe1468
    Posts: 1587
    ^ I'm guilty as well!!

    I've posted this before, but a decent write up on the differences between mills and byb's.

    http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?A=1448

    I see ad after ad on Kijiji Canada posted by byb's. And the scariest part is a byb may be right next door or across the street. They are much harder to identify than a mill. And while with a mill you need to have some sort of business sense, land, money and resources, byb's only need a willing breeding partner and a limited knowledge of breeding and raising young pups. And a computer to post your pups online.

    Both practice unethical breeding(IMO). I guess one could argue which is the bigger problem. I would lean towards the mills just because of the horrid conditions....but byb's play a very important role in the grand scheme of things.

    Just my opinion.
    "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened."
  • I agree! Good post, Kobe, and great link!
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4785
    A photographer friend made this for me at a photo shoot with my most recent litter for the purposes of education:

    Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
  • Kobe1468Kobe1468
    Posts: 1587
    You should just go ahead and ship that package to me! Lol

    But very good message....nicely done!
    "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened."
  • I love it! And yeah, we'll all be lined up to have that package shipped to us! :)
  • My bad for posting in wrong thread. I think the "how do you solve a problem" debates are quite valuable.

    I have a friend who is backyard breeding his two "champion lineage" shiba's under the guidance of the breeder. He is keeping one or two dogs, and the rest go back to the breeder unless his friends want them in which case he can charge them small fees (i thinkhe is charging the cost of the crate/items + vet visits/check-ups. He is most certainly not making money on this). It took quite a lot of convincing but since he is only 15 miles away from her she waived a lot of her contract. (he is building an enclosure outdoors, etc. He isn't half assing this). The breeder gets back all the "unsold" pups for rehoming.

    I don't think he is a bad backyard breeder. In fact, I commend the breeder since she is essentially training her replacement (after all, she may want to stop this eventually). A byb can be, but likely isn't a good breeder. In either case, its too hard to separate the two and I don't think good people should have to pay the price of bad people's actions.

    He showed 1 of his dogs (sesame) who does well but he doesn't like shows (he finds it annoying to find one, go, make accomodations for his other dog, not play golf, etc, and his wife thinks its too beauty pageant-esque and feels like a todlers and tiara's mom). His cream dog doesn't get shown as it is a fault, but as I understand it a fault because you can't see the urajiro (sp?) which is a show criteria.

    As far as mills, that seems easy to legislate by making it illegal to have more than 2 breeding females and having a female with no more than 2 litters a year?

    I am not a breeder so maybe the criteria are suspect, but I think you see where I am going.

    P.S. Lindsay, would you ever let one of your dogs come to the east coast?
  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 3495
    @BanjoTheBetaDog

    Why do you think your friend is a backyard breeder? Or generally speaking, what is YOUR definition of a backyard breeder?
  • a guy who breeds a dog in his backyard because he wants puppies?

    See that's the problem, I don't think anyone here would say my buddy is acting irresponsibly, but we'd all agree if he took two shelter dogs and bred them, he can be acting irresponsibly.
  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 8544
    @Bootz - It sounds like the "Breeder" in this instance is not a responsible one because they are allowing the friend to breed a cream.

    Plus it does not sound like the potential breeding dogs in this instance have been proven by any means (either show or some other trial) and may be of questionable stock and there is no mention of any genetic health testing being done on the two potential breeding dogs.

    So, with the information given, I too would say this is a BYB.

    @BanjoTheBetaDog - Having only two breeding females is a silly requirement. I know several extremely responsible breeders that have more than four breeding females. Plus, how do you define a breeding female? (This has actually been discussed before on the NKF regarding the new UDSA regulations that came into effect last year.)

    Also... A female dog can physically only have two litters a year (they only come into heat twice a year, generally). So, that is also not a good rule to have.

    There are a lot of grey areas and things that are just not easily enforceable. But things do need to change. And honestly, the best way to go about it is not necessarily through legislation, but through education of the masses.

    If people stop buying a product because it is "low quality", "defective", or "produced un-ethically", then manufactures are forced to change things. Take a look at Wal-Mart. Many people boycotted the store because they were outraged that a store that once prided themselves on "made in America" was only selling goods produced in China. Well, in order to improve their image (and therefore bottom line), the store has pledged to purchase billions of dollars more in US produced goods.

    Therefore, if the general public would stop supporting puppy mills and BYB's, then the "breeders" will be forced to change and (hopefully) start to breed more responsibly.

    ETA: @BanjoTheBetaDog - I think your friend is acting irresponsibly. He is breeding a non-standard Shiba who has not been proven in any way, shape, or form and has had zero health testing because he wants puppies.
    Bella 2Mountains 2Nola 2
    Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia.
    I Wander, I Ride
    Post edited by sunyata at 2014-04-02 14:05:43
  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 3495
    @sunyata Oh, I am aware and agree the breeder is not responsible. I also agree his friend classifies as a BYB. But The reason I asked Banjo is to see his definition of BYB.

    a guy who breeds a dog in his backyard because he wants puppies?



    Edit to add. I wanted to point this out because a lot of people take "Backyard breeder" too literal.

    For example: When I was educating my friend about getting a puppy from a responsible breeder vs a backyardbreeder/puppymill. Their response was "Oh this guy isn't a puppymill because he only has one breed. He's also not a backyard breeder because he does not have a backyard, he breeds and takes care of them indoors in his house"


    Post edited by Bootz at 2014-04-02 14:19:20
  • Sunyata,

    Sorry, the breeder is making sure he does testing on both dogs. She is guiding him through the process on health testing. I don't know much about it, but she is essentially treating this like she would her own dogs.

    Why is a cream bad outside of the coloring and the inability to judge it? So it may produce more creams, but if the purchaser doesn't care, why is that a problem so long as the dog is healthy (I am under the assumption a cream dog is no more susceptible to health risks than any other dog from the same litter)?

    Like I said, I don't know if the criteria I picked are any good, but education is a nice thought... here is the problem:

    I am considering the original breeder good because she does the things we'd expect of a good breeder: health testing, taking back the dog if it's too much for the new owner, rigorous screening process (which the new puppy owners must pass as well).

    If you are turned down from breeders (like me), what is your other option for getting a puppy EXCEPT a byb/mill? I won't accept "if the breeder says you can't have one you shouldn't have one" as a valid answer =)
  • If you both think the breeder is irresponsible, let me ask you this: who will be a responsible breeder if replacements are never trained?
  • zandramezandrame
    Posts: 1106
    @BanjoTheBetaDog, if your friend has two shibas and one is cream, that is not good. Creams should not be bred because the genes they carry dilute the color of offspring - breeding creams leads to more creams. In other NK like the Kishu and Hokkaido, this has almost wiped out the other colors.

    Showing is more than a beauty pageant. It demonstrates how a breeder's interpretation of the standard stands up. But looks are only one factor, there's also health and temperament which should be tested. But anyone who breeds should be doing it for the good of the breed, and should enjoy it as much as other hobbies like golf.

    Refer again to the flowchart
    http://www.shibainuforum.org/forum/discussion/8466/should-you-breed-your-dog-flow-chart/p1

    Your friend is undoubtedly a backyard breeder, and his mentor is not very good either for letting him do it without a better foundation or investment.

    @lindsayt, that pic is too cute to be effective! Buying pups from the internet is a thing now, and people do it all the time, even members here. Perhaps a split image with a contrast of what a mill looks like would help. Or words on the box in a different color or font - "unknown health," "unknown lineage". Expectation vs reality.

    Edit: Lindsay has a good post on her blog about color genetics
    http://masakadoshiba.wordpress.com/2013/12/17/coat-color-inheritance-in-shibas-cream-and-agouti/
    Post edited by zandrame at 2014-04-02 14:46:28
  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 8544
    @BanjoTheBetaDog - There are threads about the cream and why it is a fault and should not be bred (which does not mean that cream Shibas do not make wonderful pets). I am not going to discuss it this thread. Feel free to search for answers to your questions.

    As for the responsible breeder part: A responsible and ethical breeder breeds to IMPROVE the breed. This requires health testing, selecting the appropriate pairing, knowing the history and standard of the breed, and generally trying to make the breed better (according to standard). This also involves caring about where the puppies go and treating the dogs with the respect and dignity that they deserve.

    We have also addressed your question about being turned down by a breeder (or rescue) before: If you are turned down, find out why, and address the issue.

    Irresponsible breeders do not train responsible breeders. RESPONSIBLE breeders do their best to mentor those who want to breed and assist them in becoming responsible breeders themselves. I do not know any ethical and responsible breeder who will not take the time to mentor someone that is truly interesting in bettering the breed. However, there is a lot more to it than just buying two dogs and breeding them together (which is what your friend is doing, and pretty much any breeder that would allow him to do that is not a responsible one).
    Bella 2Mountains 2Nola 2
    Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia.
    I Wander, I Ride
  • knnwangknnwang
    Posts: 645
    I Want one! @lindsayt :D
  • Kobe1468Kobe1468
    Posts: 1587
    I'm always encouraged when I see articles like this:

    http://www.chicagonow.com/raining-cats-dogs/2014/04/teen-campaigns-to-end-puppy-mill-sales-in-illinois-pet-stores/

    So nice to see our youth stepping up. She's trying to use her own negative experience to help educate others, and obtain a goal. Much like we encourage on this forum all the time.

    Ending mills is a huge endeavour, but hopefully stories like this will help to inspire the cause.

    *Note...I am not advocating for her petition....just wanted to share a inspiring story of a teens activism.*
    "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened."
  • poltergeistpoltergeist
    Posts: 426
    Speaking of breeding creams (and forgive me if this is the wrong place to post) but is anyone on the Shiba Inu Photography group on Facebook? There is some Italian woman who is breeding creams! I am very annoyed that no one has said anything to her and I'm considering leaving the group.
    Anyone else know what I'm talking about?
    image
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    Unfortunately FB groups are mix bag some seem OK with it some don't. I don't know much about Italy or their standard for shiba. I think one show type allows creams? or maybe not I forgot..

    Shiba inu FB group is horrible with this lots people breeding with no ethic of improving the breed no testing them in physical, looks or mentally.. No agility, lure coursing etc.

    Example of one of these people on that FB group not sure if he is still posting there as he blocked me, but still sad conditions to raise pups in.

    This is one good reason to visit said breeder as pics he posted on the group showed none of this trash. it was on his albums on his page.
    photo 463601_10100463972394507_1493014510_o_zpscfd92132.jpg

    photo 467547_10100463975183917_2055805220_o_zps7ee7ab9a.jpg

    photo 1009269_10100463972544207_151459937_o_zps7325136d.jpg

    This is the mom I'm guessing
    photo 470862_10100463975498287_1723223515_o_zps74e2a535.jpg

    Dad maybe?
    photo 1397839_10100620530356097_1391390172_o_zps69eabd39.jpg

    Sadly you can only do so much me and Lindsay tried to educate this person isn't good breeder. The guy was claiming in the war and stuff only three shiba survived to form the breed we know today. there has to be more than just three shiba. Plus many info sites state differently.

    I gave facts about shiba history and he blocked me. The owner of the group seems to support this and when I had issue with people selling pups she made it seem like I didn't want people posting things like shiba on petfinder or from shiba rescue.. I gave up.. I stick on the group try to inform once in while, but these people don't seem to care.

    Bella was from BYB I see it as one as owners didn't really socialize or work with the pups. The owner allowed the kid to keep Bella the white boxer away from her siblings too often. each time we came to visit which was once at 7weeks and then 8weeks to pick up both times the girl was holding her. :\

    I guess because she was different the girl kept her away to play with. which might explain why she prefers to hang and play with people over dogs.. I mean she likes to play with dogs, but eventually she goes to person mostly.

    Many good breeders have backyard I mean to me that is a plus! coarse the dogs should be walked and exercised to a yard is no replacement for a walk. My backyard is huge and still Bella needs a walk and run to be happy.. she runs in the backyard, but still the sights and sounds give her good entertainment.
    Photobucket
    Nicole, 5year old Bella(Boxer), and 4year old Saya(Shiba inu)
    Post edited by Saya at 2014-04-15 08:11:33
  • euphaireeuphaire
    Posts: 347
    @saya, wow the environment for the pups seems filthy. Just look at that shoe....sad situation indeed. I also try to educate people about where to find a dog but they dont get it. Mostly people just dont want to wait. :(
  • JuniJuni
    Posts: 1268
    I was watching Animal Planet one night and they showed a special episode of 'Animal Cops' about puppy mills. This was done 6-7 years ago but is probably still valid. They said there are an estimated 10 000 puppy mills in the US! Producing around 2,3 million puppies!!! (Yearly I assume? They didn't say) That is just so disturbing. I honestly didn't realize the industry is that huge.
    Also about 2.5 million dogs are euthanized in shelters (yearly again, I think) in the US.

    I know Sweden is a lot smaller so you can't really compare. Occationally you hear about something that resembles puppy mills but when discovered the dogs are confiscated because the conditions are completely illegal. The animal protection laws are very strict here.

    Our biggest problem I believe is puppy smuggling, sick puppies born in very poor circumstances somewhere else in Europe, transported and sold to gullible people here. Sometimes straight out of a car boot. Apart from feeling sorry for the poor puppies and their owners they also carry diseases that we never had before in the country's dog population so they become a hazard to everybody else too.
  • So I was looking at a new pet store in my area. As soon as I walked in, I asked if they sold puppies (if they did, I would have left), and the guy who owned the shop could tell what I was getting at so he said "sort of" and explained he was trying a new concept. People come in and if they want a specific breed of puppy they leave him a $50 deposit. He then contacts local rescues and quality breeders (he said he screens them all. Occasionally good breeders have an extra puppy from a big litter, etc. Don't know if I buy it, but the guy seemed trustworthy) and arranges for you to meet the breeder/rescue. If you hit it off, great. As long as you show up for the meeting you get your $50 back. The pup is then "auctioned off" (i.e. if two people want the same one). The first $x goes to the breeder/rescue, and the rest is given to one of three dog related charities. He said he's had some success. I asked where his cut is and he said "my cut is in knowing that if they get a happy dog through me, they'll shop here". I thought it was a novel concept and it was good (especially if they aren't mill dogs). I then purchased some bully sticks.

    I know we talked about "how to work against mills" in a previous post and this seems to be a good model to capture the "same day pet" crowd while ensuring it is done "responsibly".

    By the way, the breeders do a home visit and can reject you (he had three people get rejected by a particular bulldog breeder). All he does is introduce the two people for free in hopes they will buy kibble and leashes and collars at his store.

    Just food for thought. Again, assuming his breeders are good, I think he is fighting the good fight.

  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 8544
    It sounds like an interesting concept. However, the idea of auctioning off puppies makes it seem like less than reputable breeders that he is dealing with. A responsible breeder will ensure that any puppy goes to the best home for it, not who can pay the most for it. :-/
    Bella 2Mountains 2Nola 2
    Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia.
    I Wander, I Ride
  • shibamistressshibamistress
    Posts: 5171
    Yeah, I'm not convinced. While the idea is ok, I have a feeling he's not working with good breeders, who don't need to have a middle man handle things for them. Especially since people can "pick a breed" because there's no way one person can know all the reputable breeders out there. It's hard enough to just keep track of one or two breeds in a region! So....I'm dubious.
  • Oh the auction part is more of a "who will donate the most to a shelter". The breeders have final say in who even gets to bid if there is more than one. The breeder has a maximum they will get (call it $100 for arguments sake) and then someone can say I'll pay $100 for the dog and $400 for charity, etc. The amount the breeder gets is capped. I should have made that clear. I also asked him about Shiba's and he said "there aren't any truly trustworthy shiba breeders within an hour of here, so I don't help out there, but there is someone about 4 hours away in PA who you may like" That breeder is highly recommended on the forum so this guy does know how to vet them (so it seems). Also, the breeders have to give some form of a health guarantee for him to consider them. He is an older guy who wants to do this in retirement.

  • Yeah, i don't know if I would of that route for me, but for people who would have gotten a dog either way this seems better. Its not perfect, but at least he doesn't keep the pets in store.

  • Kobe1468Kobe1468
    Posts: 1587
    Well, the latest from Quebec...not really surprising...

    http://www.cbc.ca/m/touch/canada/montreal/story/1.2652607

    It's a developing story, so will update once I get more info. Disgusting!
    "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened."

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