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Puppy Mills: What they are, ways to work against them
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4786
    I was actually agreeing with some things you said.

    The onus to force people to be responsible consumers does not fall in my, or other show breeders laps. We educate. We provide the best care possible. That is our duty. It is not to make pets available for everyone who wants one. If people want a high quality product, they need to shop wisely and pay accordingly.

    The biggest thing the breed community can do to stop puppy mills is educate, be active in local government, stay current on law changes and petitions that affect small scale breeders, and not perpetuate more dogs ending up in rescue.
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
    Post edited by lindsayt at 2012-12-17 14:33:46
  • InoushiInoushi
    Posts: 555
    Im not saying I find waiting lists snobby. But for an uneducated person you have to realize how things like waiting lists and a large price tag can discourage them. I also think it depends on where you live. East coast the price is high, and the wait lists long. People on the west coast have more options. If I ever get another shiba, there are only 3 breeders I really would consider on the east coast.

    Also please note, im not in the camp who is annoyed by these things. I don't care about spending a lot on a dog. Im not a dog enthuist, but an animal enthusiast, my pets come first. Im not saying do these things for everyone, but not everyone is in a position to pay huge fees. when I see people say get a rescue, and if you can't afford my price you don't deserve my dog, why even reccomend rescue? Or are you saying a good owner for a rescue is not good enough for your dogs?

    My point with this disccusion is to look at ways to fight mills. My statements are making people upset, because it points to failings on their part (or rather the current system in place) that is perpuating the industry. Instead of getting defensive and emotinal, think about what's being highlighted. I find that this forum serves to pervent people from making mistakes, but at times the tone can be read to drive people to doing so.

    Im not trying to attack anyone or cause anger. Im trying to find a solution where mills don't always seem to win. I respect the dedication this breed has, and I want it to stay that way. That's why I laid out that proposal. I would much rather discuss why not showing is considered so bad, then to have other things tacked on that was never stated out of defense. I love this breed, which is why I spend so much time on this forum. It bothers me that I see so many unhealthy dogs. If we all agree health is the most important, why is showing an instant requirement in that same generation?

    If the dam and sire come from CH parents, with good health checks both for themself and their background, what's wrong with producing pet puppies? If these puppies are bred after achieving a good wait list of screened buyers, what's the deal? Why is breeding to allow someone to have a pet not a valid reason? Your not breeding to make money still because you still performed expensive tests, and your tapping into a responsible market, who could have made the ignorant choice of going to a mill because they didn't know better. This solves the demand issue, while still being reputable.
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    The snoby waiting list I was making general statement plus this comment is one thing I just don't understand with some dog owner..

    "getting my dog now rather than being on some snobs waiting list"

    I'm sorry but people need to not be so much in a rush and to me if a breeder has that many puppies a year where people can walk in and walk away with a puppy right away without interview or anything then that's wrong.

    Coarse someone might get lucky and the breeder has puppies available.. I seen pups available on a breeders site before so waiting list isn't always option.. Maybe everyone on the list wants a male and there is some females available.. or visa versa it happens.

    Price is an issue sure..
    Photobucket
    Nicole, 5year old Bella(Boxer), and 4year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4786
    I think we are having a communication issue (aside from knocking price down).

    I don't think breeding pets from Champion parents who are health tested is bad. It's great. Many litters are bred so the breeder can get something to show and move forward with, knowing that the majority are going to be placed in non show homes. I wouldn't personally WANT to keep all three or four of the puppies I anticipate getting with each breeding. I'm going to be lucky to get one that I think will be the total package, and the rest will be reared specifically with the intention to make them great pets for people.

    That's usually how it goes and I thought it was common knowledge, but I can see not. Personally, I'm automatically assuming that I get unlucky with my breeding goal for my next show puppy and that all of the puppies in the litter will live their lives as non-showing pets (although the quality may be such that they could all be shown and finished).

    I may even breed litters every now and again without keeping any to show if I have enough requests. Who knows. It depends on the situation with how many dogs I have at the time. I know that is not unusual at all, but perhaps it isn't as well known about outside of breeding circles.
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
  • I never understand why people complain about price. Have they priced other breeds? Most well bred dogs from reputable breeders go for roughly the same price--usually starting around $1000. My friend was looking for Goldens, and many of the good breeders were charging between $1200-$1400 for a puppy on a pet contract.

    I'm just losing patience with the whole argument that reputable breeders are causing the problem here. They are NOT. The problem is the people who buy dogs from mills and bybs, period. These places exist because people just don't give a shit about the health of dogs--they only care about the original price or about getting a puppy now, and they think that they'll be the lucky one and get the healthy dog (not caring, often, that the parents are stuck in a mill breeding and breeding). They don't care that their purchase is guaranteeing that mills continue and that other dogs suffer by living in the mills, and that these so-called breeders keep churning out substandard dogs who will have health issues and will pass those health issues on to yet another generation if the people breed them.

    It's not about show breeders. It's about selfish and short-sighted puppy buyers who refuse to think through the ramifications of buying from a substandard breeder. Most of those people--like me--when they understand what they've done, are horrified and try to work to educate others not to make the same mistake. But a lot of people just don't care, and even when they do know the truth, continue to try to justify their purchase. I suppose it's easy to do that when the dog is just a puppy, and still not showing the problems they will likely have further down the line. Perhaps I would have been the same had someone called me on my mill purchase when I first got Bel, before her myriad of health issues showed up. But to know and still justify it, and worse, to breed a mill dog? That's inexcusable.
  • RikkaRikka
    Posts: 1501
    I'm probably not adding much value to this discussion, but to put it bluntly, I'm quite irritated at people who pop in the forum with their new puppy, presumably from a pet store or mill, and say they're going to breed him/her with absolutely no intention in bettering the breed.
    image
    Lauren, living with a 4 y/o Shiba named after a scientist. ☆
    Post edited by Rikka at 2012-12-17 15:19:52
  • ArcticArctic
    Posts: 513
    I'm with you, @Rikka. I know this doesn't add much to the discussion, but I'm not sure why people come here with closed minds. I popped in before getting my puppy, and if it wasn't for this forum I would have gotten an Icewind dog. Instead of getting defensive or blowing it off, I listened and read and ended up losing a deposit but gaining the knowledge to get a gorgeous pup from a reputable breeder.

    Perhaps others should take heed and listen. I know I wasn't about to refute what so many forum members, with their YEARS of experience with Shibas and their breeding, showing, etc., were saying, because I trust they know more than me. It's really for everyone's benefit, and others should realize this.
  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 3495
    @shibamistress, I agree with the whole selfish/short sighted puppy buyers. But I have to say the key issue is a lot of people are just not educated about puppy mills / bybs and the such. Honestly though, I use to be one of them. I didn't know anything about BYBS and pupply mill. I didnt know much about the health conditions and what not regarding getting a puppy.

    But having discovered the forum....I am more educated on the subject. I think one of the key ways to fight BYBs and Puppy mills is to educate the public on buying from Reputable breeders vs BYBs and Puppy mills. I am constantly spreading the word with people I meet, but sometimes you just cant help it when people are price driven =/ and look at the short term effect vs the long term health impact.

    @Rikka, x_x you are not alone.
  • InoushiInoushi
    Posts: 555
    @lindsayt I personally have nothing wrong with that. I've just had conversations with some breeders (not just this breed) that felt producing with pets in mind was not acceptable.

    @shibamistress The people who don't care are not worth discussing. Im also not blaming breeders at all. I blame mills for exploiting people. But its also no secret that finding a good breeder is hard. Unless you are in the right circles its near impossible. Maybe if more legit breeders displayed on things like puppyfind that would help.

    Talking about bettering the breed is not just about showing its also education and creating a substainable healthy gene pool. In my opinion breeding pets that adhere to this for the purpose of maing pets is a good reason. Right now more shibas are off type then on. Im not sure if im conveying it right, but doesn't it bother you that a correct shiba is considered mixed by most people who are aware of the breed? If it wasn't for this forum, I would have no idea since the shiba akc site, is extremly lacking. I wont even get into my feelings with the club right now after the health database fiasco.

    I sometimes wish there was a separate club that was composed of individuals who are knowledgble like this forum, which could opperate outside of all of the politics. One that was respected enough to be next to the name of good stock, and whos purpose was to educate the masses. Its a pipe dream, yes, but at this point I think it would be the only way to truly fight puppy mills. More so then having rescues buy direct from mill auctions.
  • I agree with everything Lindsay wrote. She nailed it.
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    I agree with you Rikki..

    I really like Madonna of the mills documentary it shows a lot on mills and what some people go through to rescue the dogs from those conditions.

    Sad thing not everyone owns HBO.. I only seen half of it because i had free weekend and only time the show was on was it was close to the end of the free week end so it didn't fully record..

    I know Shows like Oprah and others have done some on educating people.

    I wish madonna of the mills aired on local channels or on animal planet.. I know they did HSU or whatever investigates petland which is very sad.. :( I think there was some shiba on that documentary might be wrong.
    Photobucket
    Nicole, 5year old Bella(Boxer), and 4year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • I think maybe there is a misunderstanding of what show breeders mean when they say they aren't breeding with pets in mind. So let's say you have your GCH bitch and you want to breed her to your friend's GCH stud dog. If all goes wonderful, all the puppies will be better than their parents. But oops, there was a recessive cream gene in both dogs and out of 4 pups, you have 2 creams. 50% of that litter are pets and that's 50% less dogs that go toward your breeding program or get placed in other show homes. So when a breeder is saying they don't breed for pets, that's what they mean. It doesn't mean they don't sell pets, it means they're trying to nail that magic gene combo.
    Post edited by orangedoggie at 2012-12-17 20:15:06
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4786
    Exactly!
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
  • Another exactly! It's not like show breeders aren't also producing pets! Most of their dogs likely will be placed as pets, anyway!

    And I don't fault anyone who doesn't know about the mills and gets a mill dog. I'm one of those people too. But once someone knows--then I think it is inexcusable to get one from a mill or to defend mills. And that goes even more for breeding a mill dog.
  • Tre26Tre26
    Posts: 96
    Ok lindsayt I see your big thing is health testing and yes that is a good idea to expect it and maybe even require testing. I know when I was young breeding without showing wasn't the big thing it seems to be today. Requiring testing to breed ...yep a good idea and if I were a breeder I would just to protect myself. HOWEVER, this was not something I worried about as a consumer this time around. Barrett my Standard Poodle was certified in terms of hips. That didn't prevent every dog in his litter from dieing from something the breeder called strangles. There were six in the litter. Barrett lived the longest...19 months when we had to put him down because seizures were rendering him dangerous. So I have switched breeds because I am hoping the breed is still sound. So far I love my Shibas personality and intelligence plus the grooming is a big plus. My arthritis and vision really make Poodles not an option for me any longer. It was fun to groom them myself in every clip imaginable including the lion or show clip.
    Because of what I have experienced in terms of changes in Poodles I am considering becoming a breeder as a hobby. I don't know as much about the breed as I do poodles but well I love learning new things. I have always found genetics interesting and that is what breeding selectively and responsibly is all about.
    Tre26
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4786
    @tre26

    Health testing is a big thing, not just for me, not just for the people here, it's really a priority when breeding.

    My suggestion for you at this point is to do a lot more research, attend dog shows, meet reputable breeders and seek mentorship from one of them, before you commit yourself to breeding. This includes meeting more Shibas. It is to be hoped with time, that you learn to develop a critical eye towards your own dogs after studying the standards in detail. It is hard to do at times with dogs that have been nothing but pets in our eyes, but this is what seperates the good from the not so good.

    There is a lot to this breed and I would firstly encourage you to enjoy your pet Shiba (your first Shiba) for the reasons you bought her, which was to be a pet. Once you are more familiar with the breed after several years, and are still set on breeding, seek out the highest quality dog you can from the highest quality program you can. Demonstrate to breeders you are invested in the long term health of this breed by at least spectating at some dog shows, doing some training, and spaying your pet Shiba who is from a less than reputable source.
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
  • Tre26Tre26
    Posts: 96
    Hmm...I don't think that I am disagreeing with you in terms of health issues being important? Part of learning about the breed I thought was joining this forum. Certainly I would have to belong to the local dog club which I did at one time when I took confirmation classes with my last two dogs. I didn't show them because the first was only puchased on a pet contract. I took confirmation classes with him as a learning experience. My last dog ... I am not an idiot as you seem to imply, she wasn't showable and she was not good foundation stock, Puppy mills existed in 1995 when I purchased my standard. Puppy strangles is suspected to be genetically linked but there do not seem to be any tests that I am aware of. My dog that had seizures never had strangles though at four months he did become very ill which is when the seizures seem to have started. He was OFA certified. The research you posted is very poorly written. Your assumption that my pup that you have not even seen a photo of is from a less than reputable source is frankly hurtful and how would you really know? Why because I didn't purchase her from you? If you don't live near Wisconsin then you would not have been in any of my possibilities. Purchasing dogs sight unseen as you suggested earlier really sounds to me like a practice that continues to encourage puppy mills. That is why I did not ship a dog in such a manner. I see you are a moderator. Thanks for making me feel so welcomed! Guess I will be spending less time on this sight since it is not for someone like me to voice an opinion. I thought this was an open discussion and for entusiassts. Instead I see it is a place to be ignorantly belittled.
    Tre26
  • Tre26Tre26
    Posts: 96
    Also what's with advertising your kennel after every one of your posts. I don't see others advertising theirs and as I recall one is not supposed to advertise here. Kind of funny you can defame other kennels and advertise your own.
    Tre26
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    Tre26 calm down she isn't advertising her kennel.

    If this what you mean that is her signature like mine with picture and link to my blog and under the picture I have Saya her age Bella and her age if they had their CGC I'd put it after their age along with anything else..

    www.masakadoshiba.wordpress.com
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    CH San Jo Idol Eyes RN,CGC
    CH San Jo Lillith Fair RN,FDX,CA,NA,NAJ,CGC
    Beebe go Masakado RN,FDX,CA,CGC
    Grym CGC
    Follow Farrah ShibaIronMaiden on Facebook

    There are many good shiba in WI area at least two that I met in person.

    Why does your breeder breed off colored B&T shiba? I can understand if it pops up once in while in pups like with cream shiba, but they are breeding one?

    Another bad breeder I knows breed those type of B&T shiba to cream shiba and breeds same female too often.
    Photobucket
    Nicole, 5year old Bella(Boxer), and 4year old Saya(Shiba inu)
    Post edited by Saya at 2012-12-18 15:43:21
  • @Tre26....You are being really defensive here, and Lindsay did not say you should have purchased from her, nor did she belittle you, nor did anyone here belittle you. She--and others--just made the good point that if you want to breed, you should get to know the breed first, and buy a good foundation dog, not a dog from a dubious breeder. Lindsay states all this in a very reasonable manner.

    We have been saying the same thing over and over, and it is good advice that you apparently are not willing to listen to, and it is the same we would say to anyone. Get to know the breed, find a good mentor if you want to breed, and then, buy the best quality puppy you can to improve the breed. That's how anyone should go about breeding.

    Your logic about OFA makes no sense. OFA lists test results of hips/elbows/knees. It has nothing to do with epilepsy. Just because your dog is OFA tested does not mean that it may not have other problems. Also, it does not make sense to say one dog I got from a good breeder was not healthy, so therefore, all "good" breeders are bad, and instead I'll get a dog from someone who does no health checks at all!

    I really actually pretty puzzled by your posts. You do seem to agree that health checks are good, and that getting the best possible dog for breeding is good, but then you tell us you're planning to breed a dog from a place that is dubious at best where they do NO health tests. This doesn't make sense to me at all.

    And certainly no one is belittling anyone, and if you go back through this thread, and others, you'll see how carefully everyone has talked about mills and mill dogs.

    eta:

    And LIndsay is NOT advertising her kennel. She hasn't even bred any dogs! She's simply listing her dogs in her signature, and their achievements, which is perfectly within the rules. This is really a case of you should know what you're talking about before you speak, because that is NOT the case at all. And believe me, we are all quite well aware of the rules, thank you very much.
    Post edited by shibamistress at 2012-12-18 15:44:23
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3664
    @Tre26 - How can your poodle be OFA certified if you had to put him down at 19months? Sure, you can get a prelim at a younger age, but they can't be officially graded until they are 2yrs old.

    And to be honest, just by looking at the breeders on the website you can see that their breeding dogs do not fit the standard, not to mention that they breed colors that any good breeder wouldn't. You'll understand once you get more experience with the shiba breed and see dogs that can actually place in a dog show.

    I think some may take you more seriously if you would give the proper spelling of a common term. It is confOrmation not confirmation, the dog is conforming to a standard.
    image
  • @Tre26, I believe Lindsay was being very helpful, especially in her latest post which was useful, personalized advice for your purposes.

    As another moderator, I am stepping in to get this thread BACK ON TRACK, which is a discussion about puppy mills and what we can do to work against them. Further discussions or attacks towards individual users may be deleted or edited. If you have a personal issue with another user, please address it to them, or another moderator or administrator.

    EDIT: I'm also thinking that some of these discussions might be better moved to a thread like this one or this one, or possibly another more specific thread geared towards the necessity and types of health testing, showing, etc.
    image
    Bowdu 寶肚 (Shiba) and Bowpi 寶媲 (Basenji) with M.C.
    Post edited by curlytails at 2012-12-18 16:05:20
  • Tre26Tre26
    Posts: 96
    Personally I do not want to discuss this further with any of you. When one is public ally attacked and personally attacked like this one would get a bit defensive. It is called bullying. If I wanted to pursue breeding I would contact one of the breeders listed on the AKC kennel club site and ask for and seek a mentor through them which I might add I was considering. In fact if I were to do this I would do it right and would be looking for another dog. Thank you for shortening the list of where I would go. From now on I know not to discuss anything on this thread or anything that really matters in this forum .
    Tre26
  • Tre26Tre26
    Posts: 96
    Somehow it didn't type publicly correctly. Also I mean the AKC Shiba Club. There were several I had considered contacting near me for advice.
    Tre26
  • To get back to the topic in discussion, I wanted to chime in as how I see the issue as a prospective buyer.

    I think education can only do so much, the reality is that these mills thrive because there is consumer demand. I would argue that for many, purchasing a puppy is no deeper a thought process than anything else they buy in their day to day lives. They prefer value and immediate gratification and the smoke and mirror shows of many pet stores/mills/byb's of limited health guarantees and whatnot are enough to squash and mild concern many people might have.

    The only way I see any changes being made is when we look at this from a consumer protection standpoint, not an animal welfare one. It shouldn't be that way, but like with any other industry, the only way to really get peoples attention is to bring some pain to their wallets.

    Just like there are lemon laws for cars, even computers, there should be expanded laws for pets. If a shop or breeding operation is selling defective products, in this case dogs with strong chance to develop long term medical illness which will cost consumers a lot of money, they should be held accountable. Ideally that would make mass puppy production potentially cost restrictive for many reckless people trying to make an easy dollar and reward those that improve conditions and the quality of their product by being able to charge a higher cost to consumers. Ideally that higher cost also creates a barrier for those looks for a quick, cheap puppy to fulfill their immediate desire and force consumers to take the purchase more seriously.
  • kumaDUDEkumaDUDE
    Posts: 1259
    @Mackers I was sure there is a law in certain states regarding purchasing of a pet. I'm blanking out though on what it was in California. Something along the lines of having to pay for medical expenses and something about having to pay 10x te cost of the purchased pet. Sorry I'm too out of it from medication right now.
    Post edited by kumaDUDE at 2012-12-18 18:17:20
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3664
    Some states do have something called a puppy or pet lemon law. It varies somewhat per state, this link gives a general list and description of some of them:

    http://www.malteseonly.com/lemon.html
    image
    Post edited by Calia at 2012-12-18 18:22:36
  • kumaDUDEkumaDUDE
    Posts: 1259
    Thanks @calia I just realized the thing I mentioned earlier was for pet stores who don't post certain information to the buyers
  • @Mackers Yes, good point. I believe that's exactly why Icewind, for example, had to pay out (I linked to a .pdf of the court decision with NJ Consumer Affairs in that other thread).

    It is, however, much harder to use those laws for dogs that come down with inherited problems later in life. And yes, sometimes sh*t just happens, even with the best of precautions... I think one issue is that lots, if not the majority, of folks think they got "lucky" because their puppy mill dog didn't immediately die (these businesses would tank if that was the norm!), but years and years down the line, they're faced with issues that may be traced back to haphazard breeding, but it's too late to do anything about it.
    image
    Bowdu 寶肚 (Shiba) and Bowpi 寶媲 (Basenji) with M.C.
  • @curlytails That's a great example and to your point, unfortunately many states treat health problems as immediate short term issues within a relatively close span of time from when the puppy was purchased. The fact that many states laws cover as little as 14 days post purchase speaks volumes for the state of this type of protection! Not to mention the fact that the consumer must do the legwork and get the dog checked within those short time spans!
  • http://peopleforanimals2011.wordpress.com/2012/04/22/my-auction-adventures/

    Has anyone else seen this blog in the past? I see its not exactly new insight, but another insight none the less. This is an underground industry that needs to be stopped. I know some have debated as to how rescue organizations can affect the puppy mill auctions. This blogger made an interesting observation on how the bidding and auction tactics seemed to work against rescuers.
  • I've read it, and am glad to have it linked here. It is really heartbreaking to hear about what the writer saw first hand--all those injured dogs, including the shiba with the broken leg that never got treated!

    And it's.....enlightening?...to see people argue against her exposing the mills. There are a lot of people lying about what they're doing out there, or trying to hide it and deny it (I'm referring to the argument in the comments).

    Thanks for the link!
  • ArcticArctic
    Posts: 513
    The comments are a bit outrageous in that there are people trying to argue that each dog was cared for and loved when the owner had 240 dogs. You couldn't properly look after 30 dogs, realistically, much less 240. It boggles my mind that they fail to realize this.
  • Just caught up on this thread. Two observations.

    1) for those advocating that reputable breeders help re:availability of healthy, well-bred puppies - this is asking a lot of breeders. No one has yet noted this, but this is really asking a lot, emotionally speaking, from the good breeders. For the breeders that I would want to purchase a dog from, they're very attached to those puppies. It is an emotional hardship to have to place these puppies, though they still do it. I know people who have left the conformation world because they didn't want to put themselves through the emotional strain anymore.

    2) most people want to think that they did their research responsibly. Whether or not they have is a matter open to debate. But breed education only goes so far when you have plenty of people who don't want to hear their judgment impugned (whether justifiably or not). This is more about human nature than anything else. There are also those who are well educated about it but still fall into or nearly fall into traps from bybs and mills. This is also human nature. For mills and the majority of bybs, this is their business. Of course they'll exploit any advantage they think they can gain. If they can cater to someone and make them feel like they're doing something ethical why shouldn't they.

    There's a good op-ed by some business ethicists about how people often think they are more ethical than they actually are (www.nytimes.com/2011/04/21/opinion/21bazerman.html). The op-ed addresses how this applies in business, but the studies they've done and the conclusions are applicable elsewhere imo.

    Edited to add: No one wants to think that they've overestimated their own integrity or standard of ethics, but it happens. I think if you're talking about education you need to keep this in mind. There are ways to address these underlying factors but I don't often see it brought up in conversation.
    Post edited by violet_in_seville at 2013-01-22 12:39:01
  • I hear you V. It's one of the things that drives me crazy quite often on this forum. We explain what mills are. We give people information, and then people STILL buy from the mills and are defensive about it and insist they aren't doing what we know they are doing.

    I understand making mistakes. I understand not knowing. I don't really understand having all the information available and denying it. Nor do I know how to combat that. I've pretty much given up on people who get educated about the mills and still buy from them. I used to try to approach it from a pragmatic approach: buy a "cheap" dog from a mill and you'll usually end up with serious health issues down the road. Start with better odds with a dog from a reputable breeder. But people don't care, or they don't see the 1 and 2 year old mill dogs getting sick, so they don't believe it. For me, the real issue has always been ethical: how could anyone who cares about animals support the horrors of the puppy mills? But that doesn't really move most people who are determined to buy the mill puppy.

    As to how to address these issues, I don't know what they are, honestly. How do you get around the fact that some people simply don't want to see what is right in front of them?

    I know it can be a hard decision, too, if someone finds out too late that the puppy they put a deposit on is from a mill. some people have given up their deposits, something I greatly admire. A couple of people here have said, well, the puppy is coming very soon, and I guess I'll just go ahead and hope for the best, and I also admire people who say, now I know I made a mistake, but I'm so far in, I'm just going to have to do it. It's a hard decision. I get that. I just don't understand the people who deny everything.

    But I'm much less patient than I used to be with all this, and truly in despair about the state of the breed these days.
  • curlytailscurlytails
    Posts: 2779
    @CocoaSD, That was linked on the second page of this thread. =)

    @violet_in_seville, I'm confused about your first point, "for those advocating that reputable breeders help re:availability of healthy, well-bred puppies" -- what did you mean? Because I thought reputable breeders do set themselves up to be helpful for the lifetime of a pup, unless you're referring to some specific kind of help?

    --

    Now this might be a tangent, but it's something I've thought about for a long time, partly in connection to the puppy mill issue... Puppies are too desirable a commodity, let alone purebreds, and one way to cool it might be to raise the value of dogs that are NOT puppies anymore. That is, if we can underscore that nobody actually purchases a puppy, they're actually getting a dog that they have to love and care for their whole lives, the difference between an 8-week-old puppy and an "older" puppy at 4 months, 5 months, 8 months... Personally, it's all negligible to me as a matter of preference, once I really question my own intentions.

    Age is just another flimsy excuse I hear bandied about all too frequently -- people who are looking for a specific breed, and might initially be looking at rescue, and there are PLENTY of Shibas around, but they're all "too old." So because they conclude from their small sample that it's impossible to find what they want, they turn instead to a faster, more convenient route which all too often ends being a poorer choice.

    I get frustrated when I hear people referring to 2-5 year old dogs as "too old" for their adoption preferences. Too old for what? Too old to be cute? Well, puppy cuteness turns into obnoxious adolescence very quickly, but you're going to be spending most of your time with a mature adult. Luckily for us, Shibas are a very cute breed as adults, too. And thank goodness, because all that "cuteness" isn't going to seem that way in the midst of puppy teething hell.

    Too old to bond? Hardly. Bonding is completely ageless, from what I've seen, though yes, it does take both sides to fall in love. But similarly, no puppy is a blank slate either, and it's all the more reason why you want a confident, well-socialized pup who comes ready to reach out to you, instead of cowering under a desk because he's freaked out from being wrested from his isolated farmlife for the first time, thrown onto a plane, and too shellshocked to interact upon landing.

    Too old to train? Of course not! Many adults already come pre-trained, and there's plenty of room for them to learn more, as several of our own very active members who adopted their dogs in adulthood can attest. Dogs continue to learn and grow and change well into adulthood.

    If you want a puppy, that's fine, but just be honest about why you want a puppy. I think the majority of us got puppies from all different sources. When it comes down to it, when I had the space to be really honest in reflecting on my own experiences, I realize that my breeder did not stand up to scrutiny. And upon further reflection, I realized that my concern (and despair) for the breed is not at all about the puppies that end up going to good, loving homes (because again and again, this forum proves that we do love our Shibas no matter their provenance), but all those breeding adults that may never get that chance...
    image
    Bowdu 寶肚 (Shiba) and Bowpi 寶媲 (Basenji) with M.C.
  • @curlytails - I edited my post for clarification. There was a lot of earlier talk about the low availability of well bred puppies accounting for the proliferation of mills and suggestions that responsible breeders address that fact. My first point was just that this shouldn't be the onus of responsible breeders to bear and asking those breeders to take it on is not just about resources or money but an emotional strain too.
  • InoushiInoushi
    Posts: 555
    @curlytails I actually think older dogs are better choices in most instances. However in my case a puppy was a requirement because my older dog prefers puppies. She's very gentle and excepting of all baby animals, but can be iffy around strange adults unless they fall in husky, rottweiler, or toy category. Kenshin I feel will be the opposite, he actually only makes new buddies that are seniors or therapy dogs.

    Though its not that I didn't try to rescue either. However I was denied on multiple fronts. I was 19 at the time, in college, in a housing situation that says one thing on paper but is quite different in practice, and parents who refused to let anyone do a home check ("its a dog, not a child" despite them treating all of their pets like heavenly treasures). Im hoping in a few years I can rescue a nice dog once I live in a more approiate circumstance. Getting a rescue in certain situations is impossible. Even animal control told me no for a dog, and I was denied for a cat that sat in a cage for 2 years. I knew I was capable of taking care of a dog, but on paper I guess it didn't seem that way. I am however a little upset I got sort of duped by kenshin's breeder. I just count myself lucky he is healthy, and exactly the dog I wanted. She was a byb at best, she at least only had 4 breeding dogs (2 shepherds, 2 shibas) she has since stopped breeding shibas and her operation has gotten big. If this thread existed 3 years ago, definately would have waited, though I don't regret getting Kenshin either.

    People who read this and still go to a bad place, just need to be honest with themselves. No excuses. I respect that much more. Breeding is also a big no in these circumstances, too bad many do anyway. Was surprised when my own vet suggested breeding Kenshin, I politely said no.
  • This was posted on the NK side, so I thought I'd repost it here. This is what people are supporting when they buy mill dogs. This is about some of the worst--the Amish puppy mills and others. It's horrific.

    But it is also very useful about what mills are, what they do, how pet stores get puppies from mills, the careless breeding in mills, etc. Depressing, but well worth watching.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWVkV6mZ3rw&feature=youtu.be
    Post edited by shibamistress at 2013-01-25 21:17:24
  • I'm conflicted about people buying from auctions. Yes, a few dogs got out of the system, but the miller was able to dump all of his culls and start over - and he got paid to do it. Pulling a few dogs is a drop in the ocean. It doesn't help alleviate the problem whatsoever.
  • Right at 1:07 on that video there is a Black and Tan with no fur. Right after is a cream Shiba. Watch a few more seconds and you can see the Black and Tan with a gaping wound in her neck. >:(
    Post edited by orangedoggie at 2013-01-25 22:20:16
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    OMG 1:07 is so sad! Furless shiba and way poor dog was walking! :(

    I seen this long time ago, but it still gets to me. D:
    Photobucket
    Nicole, 5year old Bella(Boxer), and 4year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • Argh! So many abused Shibas and they didn't say what happened to the poor boy with the rotten teeth!
  • It was really awful....and things just get worse as they go on. (the puppies in TN were so awful I could hardly even watch it). But yeah, I just kept thinking.....so people get a cute little puppy and don't think much about the rest, about the fact that the mom could have been the ill, hairless Shiba in a cage for life in a mill.....Even though I've seen evidence to the contrary, I do like to think that most people, once they know, will not support the mills with further purchases....

    Post edited by shibamistress at 2013-01-25 22:47:15
  • I worked for a vet in high school, and you wouldn't believe what an embedded collar looks like up close. Usually there are maggots. Maggots are the only thing I cannot deal with. We got a chow in that had been tied to a tree. She had an embedded collar under all her fur. But the "best" was yet to come. I went to take her temp, raised her tail, and a cup load of maggots fell out. Everything screeched to a halt. Even the vets had never seen anything like it. I want to puke just thinking about it. She had a dead puppy inside her.
    People can be unbelievably cruel.

    That chow turned out to be one of the sweetest dogs - a chow! ;)
    Post edited by orangedoggie at 2013-01-25 22:58:04
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4786
    I also worked for a Vet for many years. I agree, the most horrifying sight for me also involved maggots. There was a tied husky "down" in a kennel during the summer heat. The double coat hid everything. I saw something inching along the exam table and went "oh, what's that?" When we started clipping hair, they came pouring out of craters in the dogs' skin and rectum. It was being eaten alive. The amazing thing was it made a full recovery.
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
  • ARRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!

    I'm going to have nightmares tonight. :(
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    Ugh hate news stories like this!

    Don't buy our puppies we kill them!

    Still I'd never buy from puppy mills I hate these dogs had to die though I hope they get it in the end.
    http://www.wivb.com/dpp/news/crime/amish-men-charged-with-killing-puppies
    Photobucket
    Nicole, 5year old Bella(Boxer), and 4year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • Tre26Tre26
    Posts: 96
    Wow...I knew that mills were bad but maggots how awful. Glad these dogs got the TLC they needed and recovered. The dog we raised from a puppy 17 years ago's dam I was told came from a mill. I should have run the other way because she did have issues like a very strange skin condition and a terrible odor because of it. We tried everything including consulting our vet and running expensive tests. She lived to be nearly 15 but it was not as much fun as it should have been with a toy poodle. This is why I have an interest in this thread.
    Tre26
  • Tre26Tre26
    Posts: 96
    Way back someone said how could my 19 month Standard pup be OFA certified. The question was where he came from I thought. A "reputable breeder" who had her dogs hips certified and the sire was as well. My dog was for pet only so certifying his hips would have been silly. The dog had terrible issues.
    This led to not going that same careful route with the next time but I never purchased from a puppy mill although as I mentioned just above this that the backyard breeder , who was a vet tech, that I purchased my next toy poodle from's dam did come from a puppy mill. I could have bred her, I never did as she had too many faults. Many people in this forum have acquired their dogs from mills and they still love and enjoy their pets. The sad thing is that these animals that come from mills are not bred for health or to enhance the breeds gene pool. They are kept in horrible conditions and any time someone purchases from them it just increases the likelihood of mills continuing to stay a part of the pet for lack of a better term,(industry).
    I am not trying to belittle anyone who did acquire their pet from a mill, a rescue or a shelter. There does seem to be the need for a balance. Hobbiests who want to learn and have a small operation or "backyard" operation should be encouraged and mentored not discouraged. The " reputable" breeders web pages almost all say the breed for pets. In my state the litters are spoken for. I did find one that was not a mill but for some reason not considered "reputable". I purchased from them because I could pick the dog up and make sure of the conditions it came from where shipping would not have allowed that. Perfect no, but the best I could do at the time. Sometimes people are ignorant of what a mill is. Some of the stories like imbedded collars, maggots and the photo someone showed on the is it a mill or not need to get out there. It might do a whole lot more good than the current ASPCA adds do to start eliminating the problem. Maggots on living flesh...good grief!
    Tre26
    Post edited by Tre26 at 2013-02-02 20:31:34

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