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Crate training/Nights Help please
  • MikachuMikachu
    Posts: 22
    Entered this in another topic on this category but got no replies so I'll make my on discussion. I'm new to the site and new to shibas but not dogs, my gf has a husky/lab mix that's a year old so I never had to deal with crate training. Our 11 week old shiba Mika has been having trouble with her crate training and nights oh and it's only our 3rd day with her and we are puzzled. we made it den like we put blankets and towels and a chew toy and we put her in the crate during the day in the room we are in twice a day for about an hour each time and she whines for about 5 to 10 mins and the plops down to sleep and we even praise her with a treat when she's in the crate. Big problem is nights she can whine and howl for hours, 1st night for about 15-25 mins not a problem 2nd night hours and hours and my gf works shifts and overnights and only got 3 hours of sleep I must of gotten only 5 hrs, last night was the same thing but we where able to get more sleep. We tried her in our bedroom and in a separate room and results are the same. I was thinking maybe because she sleep a lot during the day? But that's a normal puppy thing right? One min a ball of energy the next min out like a light. Any advice/tips would be greatly appreciated. Was thinking of using D.A.P plug ins? Has anyone tried this? I'm in Canada looked for it at some major pet store and no luck was thinking of ordering it from state side. Also treats for training any recommendations, I got 2 types and she isn't very interested in them.
    Post edited by curlytails at 2012-12-12 23:06:37
  • vnovikovavnovikova
    Posts: 532
    We had the same issue and tried everything. but nothing worked :(. We ended up getting her an ex-pen and she was ok with sleeping there. She absolutely hated the crate at night and shiba screamed and barked non-stop... now she only goes in it to sleep with doors open for 15 minutes or so.

    The first month and a half was a complete nightmare at nights and I used to sleep on a floor next to her ex-pen. It got better with age, so just got to get over it....like you would with a little baby...
  • ZinjaZinja
    Posts: 200
    I just put a blanket over the crate and ignored him. Took awhile but he eventually learned whats going on and he stopped.
  • I unfortunately don't have any advice on the crate training, Melon and Rubee were both already trained when we got them. However, as far as training treats go, both my shibas LOVE Little Jacs treats, made by Bil-Jac. They're little tiny chicken liver morsel things that work really well and are designed for smaller mouths.
  • KibaInuKibaInu
    Posts: 214
    Our pup was crying the first few nights...here are the things we did:

    1. Brought to bedroom...worked for a while but still cried a few times in the night.
    2. Turned on the radio for him to listen to...some may also suggest television.
    3. Covered the crate completely with a blanket...this worked pretty well but would still cry a few times in the middle of the night.
    4. I actually slept on the ground next to him while he was in the crate. He calmed down and was good ever since. Think he just wanted to be sure he wasn't alone and once he could see me all the time he got a bit more comfortable. Between this and the crate cover he adapted started to sleep soundly in about 3-4 nights. Good luck!
  • ZinjaZinja
    Posts: 200
    I've slept close to Sasuke while stroking his paw before... Esp when we had guests sleeping over night.

    You could try the calming air fresheners or a thunder shirt. I think the most effective thing was having my used shirts in the crate while he slept.
  • MikachuMikachu
    Posts: 22
    Thanks for all the great advice, I'll be giving each a shot and see what works best and update yall. Oh I also heard about warm/hot water bottles wrapped in a towel will be testing this out too.
  • jujeejujee
    Posts: 882
    I remember not getting much sleep either when bringing a new pup into the house. Only because I get paranoid and want them to potty outside, so I automatically wake up every 3-4 hours to let the pup out to potty.

    Did you make sure she already potty and didn't need to go again? Sometimes you just really have to ignore them. I know, it sucks to hear them cry all the time. My shiba didn't cry or whine as much while crate training. I also used an ex-pen and had her crate inside the ex-pen. She did choose to sleep in the crate though. I guess knowing she had extra space and could walk around if she wanted to helped her so I didn't really get much of a fuss out of her.

    My kai boy on the other hand... oh man. He hated being anywhere that wasn't next to me. He would cry and scream for hours on end. He grew out of it though. :] Just lots of patience and consistency. Good luck!
  • Okay, so this seemed an apt thread to post our problem to. Zim hates his crate and he's staying up ALL NIGHT screaming. It's 4:21 AM and he went to bed at 11:45 and he hasn't stopped barking and screaming about it. I've gotten some sleep but every time I wake up (about every hour or so) he's screaming so I'm pretty sure he's been at it all night. He's fine with the crate when it's not closed on him but as soon as that door closes and there's nothing to eat, he's making everyone's life hell.

    I don't know what to do about it. He needs a change in schedule, but I've no idea how to effectuate it. His initial hatred of the crate has gotten him turned around and it's giving him the energy to stay up and bitch about it all night. I think making him tired at night is a great first step but how do you tire out a puppy who's so tired during the day (from screaming in his crate) that all he wants to do is sleep?

    Bear in mind that we live in an apartment, so I am starting to feel bad for the neighbors. Only so bad, because their dog barks constantly and at all hours sometimes, but he is more annoying than just barking.
  • dorapochdorapoch
    Posts: 131
    Oh man, I am so glad those days are over...

    First few nights, I had Ginko with me in my room in a crate and he would whine and cry every once in a while at night. Since I was always paranoid, I'd take him out potty but as soon as he gets back in he'd whine for a bit. He had an accident once in there, so after that I was even more paranoid. In the daytime he'd hang around in the kitchen/living room.

    Afterwards, I got a bigger pen/crate for him and tried that in another room. I think I tried that for two nights and he would whine, cry, howl, bark all night.

    So we put that in the kitchen/living room area where he usually hangs out.

    The crate in my room was probably due to new and unfamiliar place, along with away from family etc...
    Since it has only been 3 days, give her some time. There were so many frustrating nights, but now he's a charm at night. The more familiar the place, the more comfortable he'd be sleeping in, I think.
  • InoushiInoushi
    Posts: 555
    I had kenshin's crate next to my bed so my hand was near him. Eventually though, I just plopped him onto the bed with me. I got him in the middle of college finals, so I hedged. Plus its how my family house breaks dogs anyway. I used the crate for the first time, and to be honest I never became a fan. I much prefer leaving my dogs loose, and I didn't like how crazy hyper he would get after crate time.
  • Yeah, I have to admit I broke not long after writing that. I waiting for a pause in the crying and let him out. He went and settled on a dog bed on the floor and I just grabbed a pillow and some blankets and slept on the floor next to him for the rest of the night. He's better when we leave him during the day (I think he only cries when we're here to hear it), so we'll keep crating him with a kong and some food during the day but I may try something else tonight. Not really sure.
  • LosechLosech
    Posts: 2516
    Here's what I did.
    Anytime puppy cried, we went outside.
    Conker stopped crying once he figured out that noise = FREEZING COLD.
    He was also given treats, chews, toys and Kongs to keep him busy. Conker was never much of a noisy crate dog though, probably because he was 4 months old when I got him instead of 8 weeks.
    He still doesn't like his crate and will complain a bit when I stick him in there but he doesn't make any real racket. But he continues to let me know his displeasure with angry facial expressions.

    image
  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 3495
    Losech...that picture is hilarious! Lucky for me Bootz didn't whine as a puppy, just stinky poo poos!
  • konpeitokonpeito
    Posts: 281
    @notoriousscrat have you considered just letting Zim sleep outside of the crate and with you at night? I know he's young, but I've heard plenty of stories of pups sleeping through the night without accidents outside of a crate. And since he seemed most comfortable with that it might be worth a shot.

    If not, I'm not sure what advice I can give; there's a lot of good suggestions already posted! Lucky for us Apollo wasn't a hard case with his crate. It only took maybe 3 nights for him to get accustomed to our schedule. Since then he sleeps in his crate from around 10pm-6am with no problems. On the first couple nights though, I did make sure to include lots of his chew toys and treats in the crate (however, now that I know he sleeps through the night, he doesn't need them anymore). He also slept near a very loud clock so the ticking sound would soothe him. Not sure if this is a possibility for you, but we also covered Apollo's bed with a towel that had his mother and littermates' scent, which is what got him to start sleeping in his crate in the first place.

    The case may be different for everyone depending on how you choose to feed your dog, but another thing we usually do is feed Apollo a little bit before bed. He finishes dinner around 8pm-ish, so by bedtime he gets a little hungry and has trouble sleeping on an empty stomach. A little bedtime snack might ease your puppy as well.
    Apollo the Shiba Blog - red male - d.o.b. 10/30/11
    Post edited by konpeito at 2012-01-30 21:38:18
  • dorapochdorapoch
    Posts: 131
    @Losech : OMG, Ginko does that when I put him in his crate and he wants attention. He'd keep it at that face while he looks around to see if anyone is watching, if not then he plops down to nap. Been wanting to take photo of it....I have to make sure to have a camera on hand for the opportunity. hehe
  • NekopanNekopan
    Posts: 403
    Well, I am going to admit that I have never successfully crate trained, either. With my current pup, he was sleeping in it throughout the night, but then he stayed with my mom and got spoiled by sleeping in her bed. Now he cries all night and instead of using tough love, I ended up letting him sleep in my bed too. Fail!

    However, I am going to need him to be in there for a few hours a day. We're working on that. He has some pretty severe separation anxiety so we started small. 30 seconds with the door shut, and only let him out if he wasn't crying. Then we did 1 minute. Then 2 minutes. Then 5 minutes, and I'm sure you get the picture. Right now we're up to 20 minutes, sometimes he cries like no tomorrow and sometimes he happily chews on his bone/naps/whatever. I have heard with this method, if you can get them quiet and calm for an hour and a half, then you can pretty much do any length of time. We'll see.

    As for bedtime, I would do what @losech did. If he cries at night, try to wait for a break in the crying, and then whisk him outside. If he pees, then praise like normal. If he tries to play, take him back inside to the crate. Repeat as often as he is noisy. Dogs, especially Shibas, are smart, and they will get it eventually.
  • @konpeito: Yeah, I've definitely considered not crating him at night. He's actually really well behaved in terms of chewing so if we cleaned up our bedroom enough, I think he'd probably be fine.

    @Nekopan & Losech: Taking him out whenever he cries isn't really an option, because, at least yesterday and last night, he never stops. Too bad too, because he's not a big fan of being outside at night when it's super cold (we give him a middle of the night potty break).

    Funny thing is, he has and is continuing to do a lot better when crated during the day. We give him a Kong with wet food in it (he picks out kibble) and then shut him in and rush out the door before he notices. He seems to stay silent the whole time we're out and only starts up once we're home---I think he wants an audience for his displeasure. That said, we must be getting somewhere because he was completely silent today even when we walked in the door until he was actually out of the crate. I'm hoping he's noticing that we never let him out unless he's not making a sound.

    I definitely feel that he needs to be crated during the day, and he is better at that, but maybe we should just try working with what we've got and try crating him during the day but not at night . . .
  • KineKine
    Posts: 8
    The things that worked great for me was a shirt I had worn for the day, so its like your with them. If the crying persists then take a little radio or something and play it low so that way they are distracted and dont reacted to every little sound or move you do in your bed. I tried both of these things with great luck. Also long walks before bed. I never even spoke to my shiba once he is in the crate, I feel completely ignoring them gets the point across fast. Good luck, hope he catches on.
  • I Tried the crate during the day...let the camera go. I sure felt bad when I came home
    and watched the video
    Fred and Jodie...Madison WI

    **Mika....The Shiba Inu**

    **Zoey....The Schipperke**
  • NekopanNekopan
    Posts: 403
    @notoriousscrat If he's quiet when you're gone (do you have neighbors to ask/confirm this? Or a camera maybe?) you could try putting him in another room where he can't hear you at night. Shibas are weird.

    Or you could just let him loose at night. If it doesn't bother you, and the room is puppy proof, it's really not a big deal. Just be careful about accidents.
  • @Nekopan: Yeah, accidents are sort of a problem. He's been having trouble with loose stool right now, especially at night.

    Camera is definitely a great way to confirm he's quiet while we're gone. I'm definitely going to record him tomorrow. Not sure how much that will help at night---he's already downstairs and we're upstairs, about as far away as we can get (and we can still hear him) and he's at it pretty much all night, but at least we can confirm whether he's silent without his audience.
  • GatsuGatsu
    Posts: 651
    lol Poor Mika! Guts came in to check out what was all the racket, and he stared up at the screen and he look horrified!
  • @Gatsu: I haven't even watched it yet with the sound on because Zim is sleeping and I'm afraid that it'll wake him. A brief peek without the sound, though, and she sure looked like she was making the same ruckus Zim does in his crate.
  • I use the DAP plug ins for my adult Shibas when they're freaking out. For awhile, Toby decided he hated being in his room and started barking and paddling on the door with his paws everytime I put him in there. The DAP thing doesn't stop him entirely, but it did calm him some, and now he's not doing it nearly so much, thankfully. It also helps calm my female Shiba when she's freaking out about thunder or something. Doesn't stop it entirely, but does help, so it might help with a puppy too.

    And my god, that puppy! They are such drama queens! I gotta admit I don't miss that one bit!

    It's actually why Toby wasn't crated at night at all as a pup. He could keep up the howling/crying/screaming forever, but he'd sleep quietly and mostly through the night when he was in bed with me, so I just slept with him from the first night on, and he was fine (as soon as he began to stir, I'd wake up and whisk him outside, so he never had any accidents).
  • dorapochdorapoch
    Posts: 131
    Try covering the sides of the crate with a towel or blanket. They like to feel hidden...it helped once we hid the sides and put it against the wall with the top covered with his stuff, so the only part that is open is the front.
  • DjinnDjinn
    Posts: 161
    Can you leave him in a larger space during the day? Like an pen rather than crate? It helped Hayate sleep better at night when he burned more energy in the day time (he had space and toys to play with). He actually slept most of the day as a puppy anyway, but we did notice an improvement after he got more space in the day.
  • After reading these comments about crate training, I was wondering if you have your kennel/crate set up inside the ex-pen, does it defeat the purpose of training with the kennel if you allow your puppy to sleep at night in the kennel (they're good until they wake up) and allow them to nap either with you in the living room or in the pen during the day or after their nighttime sleep?
  • So... someone recommended this for me, seems mean but it worked! First few nights were a nightmare for sure, we covered her crate, had her next to my bed, then a friend told me to hit the top of her crate once really hard and tell her to QUIET! And it worked! She sighed out of frustration and went to sleep... in the middle of the night she would do it again,then we would hit the crate again.

    Keep in mind that my puppy was able to hold in her pee/poo for 8 hours now, when she was younger we took her out every 4 hours to relieve herself in the middle of the night.

    Also, ear plugs and running the bathroom fan works wonders. We had ear plugs in for a few months...
  • O-M-G.. I forgot how bad crating at night is... I just brought home a 6 month wild one- no training except for potty. He is screaming right now. Thank goodness there are tons of threads about crate training. Knowing I'm not the only one struggling with this is keeping me calm. Seriously thank you guys.

    I kept my Fawkes with him, crated next to him in another room (she is normally crated with me). What do u guys think about that? She is definately not getting sleep right now...
  • JuniJuni
    Posts: 1269

    I don't want to upset anyone, I'm just curious about this crating issue. Is it really necessary to keep the dogs crated? The reason I'm asking is that it's illegal in Sweden where I live and I don't know anyone that does it.
    I was contemplating making some kind of enclosure around Juni's bed when she was a puppy, but never got around to do it and we had very few accidents indoors anyways. I can see why a puppy would cry and whine at night in a crate when it's used to snuggling up to its mummy and siblings. Juni has her bed next to ours and the first nights at home she would come up to our bed and whine a bit but quickly settled down if I just put my arm down and gave her some strokes or scratches.
    She would probably hate being crated now too as she prefers to vary her sleeping positions and spots a few times every night. Usually she moves from her bed, the floor to the sofa
  • Stef777Stef777
    Posts: 246
    @ Juni- I crate Kendaux every night to keep him out of trouble. He does not enjoy sleeping in my room (I sleep with the door closed) and so he is crated downstairs. He really enjoys his crate though and will go in their on his own to take naps. It gives me piece of mind to know he isn't downstairs eating stuff or chewing up stuff while I am sleeping so that is my reason.
    Post edited by Stef777 at 2012-03-02 12:39:20
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4786
    @ juni

    Illegal seriosuly? I can see how that would put puppy mills out of business since they never let their dogs out and now would have no place to keep them. Are kennel runs illegal? How about play pens instead of crates?

    What about people with only one or two pets in nice homes? How do you keep your puppies in Sweden from chewing electrical cords and eating furniture at night then? Where do they stay when you go to work? I sure hope baby gates aren't illegal too...
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
  • konpeitokonpeito
    Posts: 281
    @Juni mostly we crate Apollo because he can be a little hellraiser when no one's watching him and he gets bored. When no one's paying attention to him, he'll either 1) sleep or 2) rummage through shoes and clothes he finds and chew up said items. He's only crated when no one's home to watch him or at night to sleep, otherwise he gets run of the house with supervision. I really wish I could let him roam free, especially at night since he likes sleeping on the stairs or somewhere near us, but we just can't chance it yet. I know it's not impossible because our previous dog was never crated and he turned out just fine, totally trustworthy alone in the house. However, Apollo is very different. And while some dogs in the breed are an exception and won't cause trouble, I don't think not crating was ever an option for us to begin with just in his case.
    Apollo the Shiba Blog - red male - d.o.b. 10/30/11
  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 3495
    @Juni, like lindsayt and konpeito mentioned, Crating is mainly for the dog's safety and to keep him out of trouble. I use to crate my dogs, but I stopped after seeing improvements in their behaviour when out of crate and without supervision. But my house is puppy proofed, so they mainly just sleep, chew on chew toys, or play with each other instead of causing hell on the house.

    As lindsayt mentioned, are exercise pens ok? A lot of people just connect a crate to the exercise pen so they won't be "locked up" and have space to roam.
  • InoushiInoushi
    Posts: 555
    Is not crating really that rare? I didn't really crate Kenshin as a pup and my rottweiler was raised completely crate free. I don't think crates are necessary to be honest, its more of a training issue, crates can make it easier I suppose, but I just puppy proofed my room when he was a pup, and kept him there when I was out, otherwise he was with me where ever I was. He slept with me at night, still does, and it made emergency potty breaks really easy, plus no sleepless nights. Granted a crate and ex-pen makes the level of puppy proofing easy, but I feel like having him free gave him more exposure to household items, so it gave more opportunities to teach him. He was completely house broken before he finished teething, and even during the start he was only mildly destructive.
  • Fira is 5 months old and is crated at night when I sleep (8 hours) and when I am at work (9 hours). I really, REALLY hate having her crated, especially for so long. Unfortunately the couple times we've left her out an hour or two there were no accidents, but a couple of our wooden furniture items were chewed on.
  • CrimsonO2CrimsonO2
    Posts: 1165
    All searches on google seem to imply that Sweden does have an anti-crating law in place. First, I read it was gestational crates (for livestock), but there are tidbits here and there that suggest that their lawmakers deemed that crating dogs was prone to be abused by owners for leaving their dogs/pets in crates for long periods of time, thus they just outlawed it.

    Jesse
  • AWE46M3AWE46M3
    Posts: 357
    When our dog was a pup he whined through the entire first night. He literally would not stop for more than 5-10 minutes at a time. We were concerned he was going to lose his voice - or maybe we were hoping... Haha we contacted the breeder the next day and she basically told us we either deal with it for a couple nights or end up with a dog that cannot be crated/confined. She gave us a few suggestions but reiterated a few times that if we didn't get through it at that time it wasn't going to get any better as he got older. The main point was for us to ignore it and not give him any attention otherwise he learns that making noise equal human attention. On the second night he made a little noise but it wasn't bad at all. I think he stopped by the third or fourth night. I think I created this exact discussion as well! Haha
  • InoushiInoushi
    Posts: 555
    @infernofox10 15 hours a day in a crate is a lot of time. Why not get a play pen? I don't think a crate is meant to be used more than an 8 hour stint for bed time but during the day, especially for a pup, they shouldbe crated in shorter intervals. They make covered play pens if your worried about her breaking out.
  • Miyumi_PupMiyumi_Pup
    Posts: 226
    Miyumi whined in her crate the first 3 nights. After that she slept in the bed with us. Whenever she needed to go potty- she would wake up with some whimpers. When we got Yoshiro- we didn't even try to crate him at night. He just curled up with us and went right to sleep. And he also let us know when he had to go potty. But we don't mind having the dogs in bed with us. :)

    They don't have any problems crating during the day.
    Heather, Logan, and two Shibas named Miyumi & Yoshiro
  • I've been keeping Kip in a kennel rather than a crate. Do you guys suggest using a crate over a kennel? I wonder how he's going to take to the crate if i did do adjustment...

    oh and he does fine in his kennel only whines for 2 minutes or less before going to sleep.
    Post edited by KiptheKipster at 2012-03-05 18:07:19
  • JuniJuni
    Posts: 1269
    @lindsayt yes it is illegal and puppy mills are actually not a problem in Sweden. I can't promise they are non exisiting but it is not an issue here, and they would most likely be illegal if found. I am 100% sure there are no Shiba puppy mills. I think most people with naughty dogs have one room or one area that are puppy proof, but yes a bit of damage to the house seems the norm when you have a puppy here. I was lucky who had a pup that really never did any damage and still just goes to bed if left alone in the flat. She goes to a doggy day care when we're at work.
    @bootz you are allowed to have you dog in some sort of enclosure (depending on the dog's size it has to be of certain measurements), so an open crate with a puppy pen would be allowed. The animal protection laws are all about making sure the animal gets to live as natural as possible. And I really don't think it is natural for a dog to stay in such a a small space as a crate for a whole night or even worse a whole day.
    @CrimsonO2 crating is allowed for transportation purposes or for short periods during dog shows or competitions. There is also a paragraph about how long you're allowed to leave the dog alone-not more than 6 hours. I'm pretty sure a lot of people don't live up to that in Sweden either.
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4786
    The US could use some of that thinking.
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
  • koyukikoyuki
    Posts: 1244
    I dont think crating is that common in alot of areas in australia. I dont know anybody that has crated puppies let alone dogs, ive only ever seen pen enclosures like a childs play pen which is what i used....i dont see why a crate is favourable over a pen as long as they cant escape? I can see why crating a small pup at night is ok but i dont think i would ever crate during the day. I felt bad having my puppies in the pen for as long as they were. That being said im always home to have them outside playing when they want to so they were better behaved inside as they get all their beans out of their system in the yard. But the amount they slept they probably wouldve coped in the pen all the time anyway.
    Koyuki - red female
    Takeo- cream male
    Kenji- black and tan male
    Suma- sesame female
    Haruki-brindle Japanese Akita Inu
  • konpeitokonpeito
    Posts: 281
    I thought I'd post in this thread even though it got pushed back a bit. Figured it was better than starting a new one anyways.

    So recently we've been having a little trouble with Apollo and his crate. Part of it I think is him growing out of it and the crate just feels that much smaller with him now, and the other part is I had a week of spring break last week, so he was out and about the entire week without crating since I didn't leave the house without him. And now he has to adjust back to being crated while I'm in class, which I feel terrible about. I don't know if I should just chalk it up to him readjusting, but this past week he has been a bit of a pain about being crated. I don't ever pick him up and put him in, he goes in by command before I have to leave. Normally he'll whine a bit and put up a little hissy fit, but it dies down by the time I've gotten read and out the door. I'm fairly sure he still whines and probably barks while everyone's gone, but generally he seems to just sleep as he's always in that position when I come home to let him out. I always leave some of his toys and chews in there so he'll have something to do, but it seems like now he doesn't even care about that anymore. It's really difficult because it's not like I can make him play with his toys in his crate. The least I'd think he'd do is chew on his bullysticks and cow ears, which he is crazy for when around the house, but when I come home they look totally untouched. I thought maybe his bed was too big and taking up too much space, so I took that out today and left a Dentastix (which normally he eats all in one sitting when I give it to him out of the crate), but when I came home again the chews were untouched and so was the Dentastix...sigh.

    He also started pulling out some real tantrums. Obviously I'm not home for them, but he actually pulled one of the potty pads that sits on top of his crate down through the wire and chewed part of it to pieces all over his bed and the entire crate. He's NEVER done this before, even though some things were within reach between the wire. We've since moved things out of the way to avoid anymore of these incidents. But still, I know these behaviours are partly stemming from boredom, but I leave things for him to do and he doesn't touch them, which didn't used to be such a big problem before. Also these last few nights he started crying in his crate like when we first got him. These I know for a fact are just tantrums as I've taken him out to potty, he's had his food, etc. My father has really upset me lately because I worked so hard with Apollo to get him to not cry and scream in the crate, but my father gives in within seconds and lets him out, ruining all that training. He says it's cus he needs to potty or he's hungry, but after he's gone outside or eaten and goes back in, he STILL continues to cry. The only way to get him to stop that's worked so far is, you guessed it, IGNORING HIM. Which is what I'd always done when he cried, letting him out only when he's quiet and calm. But now he's starting to think that he'll be let out when he cries so he keeps doing it...and my dad keeps giving in. Apollo used to sleep all through the night and we wouldn't hear a peep. I really don't know what's going on with that. I understand the whining about being crated during the day, but not really night since nothing has changed for that part of his routine.

    I've been seriously debating getting him an X-pen. Which my parents don't agree with for whatever reason but man do I want to work to convince them. Apollo has grown substantially, so I understand if he thinks the crate is small (it's more of a medium size. I forget the exact measurements, but he can stand up and turn around and all that jazz just fine with some space to spare actually). I also talked in another thread about leaving him in a spare, empty room in the house. I think one of our biggest concerns was whether or not he'd pee in the house, and also the fact he's allowed a bigger space and yet no one's home. Apollo doesn't have separation anxiety per se, but he definitely prefers company. I've also seriously considered letting him sleep on the stairs or something outside his crate at night if the crying continues. So far so good tonight, but usually his screams start up around 1-2am so I'm not in the clear quite yet...

    Sorry, post was long, but I just wanted to be as specific as possible to get some opinions. I really wish I could trust Apollo out of his crate altogether, but that's simply impossible right now. I don't know, do you think I should just go back to step one with the crate training and work on reinforcing positive associations? He still goes in there to nap throughout the day by his own free will, so I know he still likes it. Or should I just wait it out another week or so to see if his behaviour continues before reevaluation?
    Apollo the Shiba Blog - red male - d.o.b. 10/30/11
  • jjlcjjlc
    Posts: 66
    @konpeito The problem isn't your dog, it's your dad. As for the dog, he whines because he knows he'll get out. Which he'll probably do in an ex-pen or most anywhere else that you try to put him that doesn't = what he wants. IMO, as you've guessed yourself, if you let him run free you're going to have accidents to deal with or worse. Retrain your father to stop messing up your dog.

    What I've done: When Miko goes into her crate she rarely whines, but if she does I tell her "quiet", which she always responds to, but sometimes starts up again. I'll repeat two more times, but after the 3rd time I have a soda can with a few pennies in it, wrapped in a sock that I will throw at the crate while saying "quiet". This snaps her attention and stops the whining. I've only had to use the sock twice, the last being a week ago and she hasn't whined in her crate since. YMMV
  • I agree, konpeito, you've got parent troubles leading to dog troubles. I certainly understand and sympathize as I lived with my mother until August of 2010, so these sorts of problems are still very recent for me. What I would do in your situation is just have a talk with your parents about whose dog this is as my understanding, if I remember your previous posts correctly, is that he is your dog whom you will be taking once you move out. Logically, to me, it follows that if it's 100% your dog, 100% of the decisions about him and expenses will be yours as well. Now, this might work less well if your parents cover vet expenses, etc, as it's hard to say you get 100% of the say if you're not taking 100% of the responsibility. My mother definitely would have said that her money meant she got a say and she was going to do what she wanted unless I wanted to pay for the dog---which can drive you crazy if you're right but is reasonable on your parents' end. Another problem for this solution may also be that even if you take all the responsibility, your parents have to live with Apollo as well and are less likely to handle their annoyance at his crate tantrums in a roommate sort of way (which is what you'd be asking for) and in a more parent/child sort of way. Parents will sometimes say "my house, my rules" and it's hard to argue with unless you're paying for your own food and giving them rent money. So, another argument this should probably be combined with is one about how Apollo was when he first came home and how he was before your dad started letting him out when he cried. Basically, you say, "it worked before, it will work now" in addition to "this is my dog so please respect my decisions in the same way I was always told to respect yours." Finally, I don't know your family dynamic or how your mother is but before my parents divorced, and even sometimes after, getting my mom as an ally in a talk like this was always the best thing I could do. Your mom may be more willing to listen to you and in turn your dad may be more willing to listen to her, since she's on equal footing with him.

    I would also suggest moving Apollo's crate into your room and shutting the door, since it might make your father think more about just going and letting him out and I believe that Apollo is old enough that it shouldn't be a problem for him not to go out while you're in class as long as you commit to getting home during lunch (which I would suggest since it helps you maintain more control over the dog and how he's trained).
  • deerparkdeerpark
    Posts: 237
    I wonder if anyone has any other advice. Our 8 week old Shiba have been with us for the past 3 nights. She screams non-stop throughout the night and it hasn't gotten any better. It's so loud my other dog leaves the room. Good thing I was prepared for their infamous scream and had earplugs ready.

    We've tried - not necessary at the same time:
    - soft toys and blanket with her litters scent
    - cool pad (my other dog does not like crates because it was warm for him)
    - music & heartbeat sounds
    - kong with yummy treat & other treats (she ignores it)
    - sleeping next to the crate
    - covering & uncovering the crate
    - tried a small crate & big crate
    - leaving her in the bathroom with my other dog
    - ignore her & leaving the room
    - tiring & relieving her before bed time

    We might have tried something else but I'm so sleepy from being awake the past few nights I might have forgotten a few points, lol. I think the only thing we have not tried is that calming scent spray someone else has posted in another thread.

    It's only been 3 nights so we will still work on it. I just wonder if anyone had any other suggestion. A friend of ours who competes in agility and obedience has a Shiba that she conditioned since puppyhood for nail clipping and crate who she says STILL screams sometimes at 4 years old. Makes me wonder if some dogs just cannot be crated.... Our dogs trainer would tell us there's no such thing as an untrainable dog, lol. We don't compete and our dogs wear seatbelt in the car, she is pretty much already potty trained thanks to our breeder. We were really crate training just incase we bench her or have to travel overseas.
  • I don't think she can't be trained to tolerate a crate. One of my screamers is fine in a crate now (that he's 8 years old, ha!) and one is still....not so good.

    Probably people who have more successfully trained Shibas to crates will be of more help, because I just gave up during the screaming puppy phase! The screaming was too much for me. So I let him sleep out of the crate at night (he slept on the bed with me), and he didn't seem to mind being in the crate for an hour or so during the day. that was as a small puppy, though. As he got older, he started to like his crate, and never screamed if he went in it willing. I did do a thing where I just left the crate out, and trained him to go in for a treat, then let him out (without closing the door) and once he was going in easily on his own, I'd close the door for like 30 secs, given him a treat, let him out etc. When he did that easily, I just let him choose when he went in (obviously I had the luxury of that) and then suddenly, a few months later, the crate was no big deal at all (though he did sleep with me still).

    I do think, though, if you're determined, you'll be able to wait this out, but it's not pleasant in the meantime, it's true. With my akita puppy, he whined (softly) in the crate for the first couple of nights. I had it next to the bed, and I stuck my fingers in and when he could smell me, it seemed to calm him. But yeah, the first couple of months of puppyhood are pretty sleepless!
  • jjlcjjlc
    Posts: 66
    @deerpark We had very little difficulty in getting Miko to take to her crate. She whined the first few nights, but would calm down as soon as I laid in front of the crate with her until she settled and got sleepy (15 minutes). Over the next few nights I slowly moved further and further away, toward the bed and have had only one instance of extended crate whining since (see below).

    Now, something that some here may disagree with but that our trainer suggests, uses and has used wtih Shibas are bitter apple and a soda can with pennies inside, stuffed in a sock or soft bag.

    After attempting to quiet them by telling them "quiet" she will either rap the can on the front of the crate, which distacts and quiets the dog or spray the dogs lips with bitter apple. She did this with another pup during our puppy class, one that had never been in a crate, but whose owner was desperate to get her there, and it worked. Granted, that's not a shiba, but she has worked with quite a few of them in her career as well. We used the can trick one time with Miko after her being particularly fired up when it was well past our bed time and it worked. FWIW.

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