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Doggie Daycare?
  • RyuRyu
    Posts: 1623
    Ok, hear me out first - I've been playing with the idea of putting Ryu into doggie daycare for two days out of the week. We had a sketchy experience last week at the dog park but I still want him to get the benefits of socialization. I'm nervous that he will become dog-aggressive if he doesn't have any interaction with other dogs. Both Tim and I work until mid-evening and we live at least 30 mins from the closest dog park. Would it be silly of me to drop him off at a dog daycare so he can socialize?  Has anyone else done this or am I being really irrational?
  • MommyofNikoMommyofNiko
    Posts: 2728
    Doggy Daycare was the best thing we ever did to socialize Niko.  It is a more controlled enviorment and I think much safer, there are timeouts (which Niko has been in) and they truly care.  We have been to 4 different daycares, there is one that we despised and even though we had another visit left we refused to use it.  I LOVE taking them and we are taking Sasha now to get her more comfortable without me and Chad.  Niko will ONLY play with the big dogs!
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 2242


    Not silly at all - a great idea imo.



    We did this with Ahi and she loved it, until she was kicked out (for breed prejudice / fear of the unknown / Shikoku play-style).



    We tried it with Maui and Kaia and it didn't work well... but that was due to the daycare.



    A nicely run daycare would be great!


  • I've actually been thinking about this as well, especially now that I have two dogs and I may have a harder time finding friends to take care of them so boarding may be necessary. I haven't done much research at all, but I do know there are very different styles of daycare. Some are "open society" style where the only time the dogs are separated is at feeding time. Others are much more careful about which dogs play with which and so on.



    In general though, I have heard nothing but good things from those people that do take their dogs to daycare (assuming the daycare place is a good one).  

  • sujewelsujewel
    Posts: 2541
    I think it's a great idea as well! In order to socialize dogs probably, they have to meet tons and tons of dogs a week and Doggie Daycare is perfect for that! I wish we thought of it at the time. Good luck!
  • RomiRomi
    Posts: 2722
    I was thinking about taking Ninja and Portia to the Petsmart Doggie Daycare.  It looked very nice inside and they had very nice kennels that they kept the dogs in while they weren't playing.  But dogs have to be at least 6 months old and neutered/spayed with all vaccinations.  By the time Ninja was 6 months and neutered, I noticed his aggression to other dogs so that went out the window.  But it is a great place to socialize a puppy.
  • sujewelsujewel
    Posts: 2541
    I just found a Doggie Daycare that has an on-staff Behaviorist (haven't heard from Victoria StillwellFrown). I'm hoping they will take Mika and work through her aggression issues while we're at work.
  • okironokiron
    Posts: 735
    Sounds like a good idea to me. I'd be willing to do it for 1-2 days a week just for the purpose of socialization. Basically why my brothers were sent to Sunday school since they were 3. Just for them to get used to others and away from mommy and daddy.
  • hondruhondru
    Posts: 529
    Next time I get a puppy, I'm going to do this sometimes just for the sake of socialization, even though I'm home full time.  I think it's a great idea.
    -Heidi, with Rakka (shikoku) and Sosuke (kai ken)
  • grandemugrandemu
    Posts: 232
    We're going to be taking Sora and Tag to doggie day care for a while - right now we're living in a hotel room while we wait for the house we're renting to be vacated, and you can't leave dogs in the room when you're gone, and we'll be starting work next week...but the place we're taking them has gotten good recommendations, and the people seem nice, the place is clean...we'll see how it goes.
  • grandemugrandemu
    Posts: 232
    Yaaaay! Signed a lease for a great house. But, owners might not be out until 1 May Cry. That could mean a 30-day-stay at the Super 8! Looooooots of long walks for the dogs. No yard to run around in, no room in the room either. We'll get there though...the house has a pretty decent-sized yard for the area - so we'll almost definitely be doing the doggie day care until we move in (as long as we get reimbursed for it - it's $31/day!). Otherwise, we'll try to come up with another option.
  • hondruhondru
    Posts: 529
    Who's going to reimburse you for it?
    -Heidi, with Rakka (shikoku) and Sosuke (kai ken)
  • grandemugrandemu
    Posts: 232
    The AF - they pay for moves, and hotels while you're waiting to get a house... they sometimes have temp lodging that allows pets. This base does, but won't allow a bird, and I don't want to board her. They pay if you have to kennel pets...so I'm hoping doggie day care falls under kennel costs. We'll find out on Tuesday.
  • hondruhondru
    Posts: 529
    Ah, I see.  Well hopefully they reimburse you, then!
    -Heidi, with Rakka (shikoku) and Sosuke (kai ken)
  • MommyofNikoMommyofNiko
    Posts: 2728
    They will do dogs and no bird?????
  • grandemugrandemu
    Posts: 232
    Ya, I don't know why...she's in a cage, but they refuse, and it's a fine if they catch you sneaking an animal. Dumb.

  • Seriously dumb. Our tax dollars hard at work....Rather than put you guys up in pet friendly housing at minimal cost they are going to eat the bill for your hotel room and possibly doggy day care because you have a caged bird? If it weren't so asinine I would be outraged.



    I'm glad you guys found a place you are happy with! 

  • RyuRyu
    Posts: 1623


    Alrighty then, Ryu just got back from his Doggie Daycare Evaluation (basically where they determine whether we can enroll him). We had to leave him for 2 hours. When we left, he was his normal jumpy, happy self. When we got back, apparently, he got really nervous in the room with the other dogs (they have 3 separate rooms; one for large breeds, medium and small. He was in the medium one) and pooped and peed everywhere. They said that he seemed like he didn't really know how to play and had a tiny bit of aggression. He's the only non-neutered male (they'll allow him in the room but when the trainer leaves the room, they have to put Ryu in a kennel temporarily until he's fixed) and these two other males (a beagle and a terrier mix) were sort of antagonizing him. There was a female poodle that he tried to play with and they were fine. Overall, they said he would be fine to enroll but we needed to keep an eye out for a rise in aggression. Mainly they said he needs to learn how to play. (by the way, no fights today, just a bit of teeth-showing) The only things that sort of bother me is that they use those correction leashes (you know how Cesar wraps a cord around the dog's neck and pulls up if he needs correcting?) and I'm slightly uncomfortable with that (probably because we don't do that at home). Also, while we talking, a Boston terrier did something (not sure what, I didn't hear or see anything out of line) and she did that stupid touch technique that Cesar does and literally pushed the dog on it's back. Undecided And the trainer kind of made me feel like a floozy, hippie girl when she asked me how I "correct" him and I told her that we use positive motivation to teach him what is right and wrong.



    Whew! in the end, he seemed really happy by the time we got there and was pretty worn out so I signed him up for Tuesday and Thursday (7:30 am to 6:30 pm - our typical workday Cry) but I can cancel if i change my mind. I think I'm just a little wierded out about new people "training" him after all the work (and $$$) we spent with positive motivation.



    Once again, (and I only ask because I have a tendency to do so) am I overreacting about the trainers there?

  • grandemugrandemu
    Posts: 232


    If you don't feel comfortable with the environment you would be leaving your dog in, you shouldn't leave them - it doesn't matter if everyone says the place is great (I don't know, just for example)...if you will worry about what they are doing with your dog while you are not there, don't do it... If you are worried about socialization, try to get into more situations controlled by you with other dogs...puppy parties (we call them), get togethers, etc. And especially if you don't agree with their correction methods. They are not going to change their ways for your dog - so if it's not what you want your dog corrected with, stay away from that situation.



    Other alternatives...maybe someone who does a small amt of dog care from their house, friends who have dogs,...I had a friend who had a dog who was a home-maker, and when Jack was a puppy, he went over to her house every day.



    Other alternatives may be difficult, but it comes to your comfort, and your dog's comfort. Also, a really bad experience, esp with another dog (but also a really aggressive correction) can effect a dog's future behavior . It depends on the dog - some bounce back, some are more sensitive.


  • Personally I wouldn't leave him there. It sounds like it would undermine the work you have already done. I am all about positive reinforcement, and save the corrections for when my dogs show aggression toward each other, or chase a kitty, nothing else.



    Remember Cesar Milan has a HUGELY popular show, so people will always give rave reviews when they see someone using "Cesar Techniques" even if it is creating fearful, neurotic animals.



    Have you ever noticed he doesn't seem to show fearful anxious dogs that need confidence boosting? I'm working with a dog right now at the pound who is afraid to walk anywhere unfamiliar, she just cowers. What would that chucklehead do...hiss at her?



    I like Jen's suggestion. I have a dog walker. Before we got Piglet (Pits are not dog park dogs, regardless of what people say) she would take Moto to the dog park. Now she runs the both of them, plays with them, and just breaks up the day. They don't even notice I'm gone, and when she comes over, it is like their favorite Aunt just stopped by. And she uses the same training methods I use so that they receive consistent training.



    Trust your gut. 


  • I agree, you should always trust your gut. If you are uncomfortable there is probably a good reason, even if you can't articulate it.



    BTW, a lot of people unfamiliar with Shibas think that the way they play is aggressive. Just look at all the pictures that Brandon posts of Nemo's play dates. You see teeth in almost all of them. Lucy and Joey make a *LOT* of noise when they play even if they are just lazily mouthing at each other on the couch. Since it is play behavior in a Shiba, you want to be careful about correcting it. If the behaviorist at the daycare center doesn't understand that Ryu is playing he may get corrected for something that isn't wrong.



    It's tough to say from a distance, but it sounds like you might be right to be a little cautious.  

  • sujewelsujewel
    Posts: 2541
    I agree too. It doesn't sound like the right place for Ryu. Is there another Daycare Center for pups?
  • RyuRyu
    Posts: 1623


    Thanks guys - it's nice to know I'm not overreacting and have valid reasons for feeling squeamish. I cancelled his "playcare" reservations and I'm about to schedule another evaluation with a daycare closer to my job. The hours of operation are alot longer and more convenient and they have live streaming video on their website of their play rooms so I can keep watch while at work :-). I'm going to be sure to ask about their discipline and training methods.



    On another note, we took Ryu to the dog park yesterday (the first time after our little incident two weeks ago). As soon as we entered, about 6 large-breed dogs (think Goldens, Labs, etc) huddled up around Ryu and he was fine for about 20 seconds. Then he got overwhelmed and started to growl. We redirected him to another spot so he could sniff, pee and walk around a bit. He walked over to a Golden couple and was fine. When the younger Golden kept following him around, he started to growl again until the owner took the Golden away. Then he was fine. After that, he went BACK to the same Golden and started barking and doing his play bow. Then they were all fun and games and running around. Do you think he was just being touchy in the beginning because the bigger dogs were crowding him? I just don't want to downplay these incidents if they are really signs of aggression. I feel bad because I can't control my nervous feelings when a lot of dogs crowd around him and I'm sure he picks up on it.


  • Pam, that sounds completely normal. There are a few things to consider:



    First, growling isn't always a sign of aggression. In this case, it sounds like Ryu was (rightfully) growling to let the other dogs know he was uncomfortable with them violating his space. If the other dogs didn't listen to his warning, then it was them who were behaving inappropriately. That being said, however, you can't count on other dogs to behave properly at a dog park so you should be prepared to step in if they don't listen to Ryu when he tells them to back off.



    Second, when a new dog enters the dog park, it takes a few minutes for all of the dogs there to sort out where in the hierarchy they will be. Lucy is always a little uncomfortable during the first five minutes or so. She generally will walk the fence sniffing, do her business, and then once she has settled down she will start running around and playing. It is almost like clock work for her. I can predict within a few seconds when she'll start running and playing. It sounds like Ryu just needed to do the same.



    Also, Lucy always gets pissy when a whole group of large dogs greet her and don't allow her space. If it is one or two at a time, she is fine with it.



    The moral of the story is....Yes, keep an eye on it. But it doesn't sound like you have anything to worry about. 

  • RyuRyu
    Posts: 1623


    Dave, that sounds EXACTLY like what happened yesterday. Almost like you were there peeking through the fence... (creepy Wink). Thanks for the reassurance - it's so overwhelming being a new dog owner! Whew!!!

  • RomiRomi
    Posts: 2722


    Pam - Ninja showed his first sign of aggression at the dog park.  He was fine before, but I showed some attention to a Weimaraner puppy and he growled and snapped at the puppy.  After that, I never took him back...and since then his aggression has escalated.  It could be because we had him neutered too.  I would keep a close eye.  If you notice him start growling a lot, I might seek advice.  For example, Ninja was fine with dogs coming up to him and sniffing him.  And then we noticed that he would allow dogs to come sniff him and after a couple of minutes he would growl at them.  Now, if a dog is 2 feet close to him, he will start growling and eventually charge if they get too close.  But I think Brandon told me this, that if he growls, you should not punish or scold him for it because that will just make him not growl (which is a warning), which could possibly lead to a bite or attack without warning. 



    But I agree with everyone else, if you don't feel comfortable with the place, don't leave him there.  Especially if you don't agree with their style of training. 

  • RyuRyu
    Posts: 1623


    Thanks Romi - I guess I'm just confused as to what to do when he has scuffles with other pups, like whether we should keep socializing him afterwards so that he gets used to dogs around him or pull him out of high-enery groups to focus on one-on-one training... At times, I feel like I'm setting him up for failure if I keep him away from dogs but then I agree that a dog park is not a very stable place to work on socialization. I'm thinking about starting a puppy meetup in our town so we can work on socialization in a controlled area.... It's so hard to find a place that will allow doggies to run around freely here. One of our military elementary schools has a baseball field nearby that the public can sign up to use so I'm going to fill out an application to see if we can meet there... I am so paranoid about this socialization thing, can you tell? haha



    Dave, this is what Tim had to say about your post:



    "Babe, You are so protective. No, really, its normal and the dude is right, its normal."

  • RomiRomi
    Posts: 2722


    To be honest, I feel pretty selfish since I stopped socializing Ninja with other dogs out of my fear of something bad happening.  But I felt that it was the safest thing to do for my dog and for the other dogs out there.  I still socialize him with people, I feel that if we can jump over that hurdle, than anything is possible.  Im just taking 1 step at a time so I don't overwhelm myself.  I think the puppy meet up group would be an excellent source of socialization.  Actually, any type of socialization with responsible dog owners is really good because you guys will all be on the same page.



    I think that since Japanese breeds are more reactive, people aren't used to it and mistake it for aggression.  So it could be that maybe that the other dog owners give you a vibe that Ryu is acting out, when actually, its just a trait of the shiba that they are not used to.  Anyways, don't give up!  Consistency is best!  Just keep going at it and you'll see results, they won't be instant, but you'll see them.  Keep your head up Pam, you're doing a great job!


  • Pam, I absolutely think you should keep socializing him after a scuffle. If he is the instigator, I would leash him and remove him from the park for a few minutes until he clams down and then bring him back in. If it isn't his fault, simply remove him from the situation and let him go about playing again. I think your puppy meetup is a great idea. I hope it works out! And tell Tim that great minds think alike! Wink



    ----



    Romi, you shouldn't feel bad. You clearly care for Ninja very much and it seems like you always do what you think is best for him. And that makes you an awesome dog owner. I think you're doing a great job too! 

  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 2242


    Romi - I don't think you did the wrong thing, I mean Ninja is not the typical level of reactiveness one would expect from a Shiba, he is pretty reactive (or insecure)... so you did the right thing. If Ninja was faced with the same situation Pam described above he probably would have bite one of the Goldens.



    Pam - I am just gonna reiterate what Dave said - growling doesn't always mean aggression... showing teeth, growling, staring, etc. are all ways that dogs communicate their "rules of engagement". <- Shibas have very strict rules of engagement, for example - watch the "Playtime!!" video post - those Shibas are clearly exercising their "shiba" rules of engagement... (they barely even touch)



    It sounds like those Goldens were a little more stoked than they should have been when Ryu entered and therefore Ryu was letting them know they needed to give him space. Once he had space and was more comfortable with his environment he initiated play - and then they were best buddies. I think that, if anything, that shows a pretty high level of social aptitude for Ryu.



    You did the right thing by redirecting him tho, that way you get him out of the uncomfortable situation so that he could get comfortable.

  • RomiRomi
    Posts: 2722


    Dave - Thanks, you're sweet!



    Brad - Yeah, I felt that he was becoming a little too reactive, borderline aggressive.  Im sure he would have bitten the goldens out of fear or anxiety.



    Pam - I think you have a connection with Ryu, like most owners do.  Just listen to your gut, if you feel nervous or anxious about a situation, Its best to just prevent it.  But Ryu seems to be ok, just a little skiddish, but who wouldn't be in that situation.  Anyways, keep us updated! Hope all goes well!

  • sujewelsujewel
    Posts: 2541


    Pam: I agree with everyone else. I don't think you should stop socializing Ryu. It's pretty daunting getting greeted by 6 dogs 5 times his size!



    Romi: I also agree with Brad. His behavior was escalated beyond 'I'm uncomfortable'. But I know how you feel. I'm sorry that I kept Mika away from other dogs. Knowing better now, I see that her behavior was dominant, but not aggressive and she's now in a position where she doesn't know how to approach dogs due to lack of socialization. When she does see a dog, she's frustrated dominant. Doesn't go over well. But I kept her away when she started herding dogs and fighting with dogs who mounted her. My bad. 

  • brandon_wbrandon_w
    Posts: 3433


    I'm a bit late on this but do not take him back to that doggy daycare.  They alpha rolled a poor little boston terrier by pushing their fingers into his neck?  YIKES!  I would of picked up my dog and ran at that point.



    Also Ryu growling at a crowd of dogs is normal as other people have said.  He was saying back off.  Growling gets a bad rap, so many people think growling = aggression.  Growling is a warning, a verbal communication that the dog is unhappy.  If he had immediatley tried to attack them, that would not have been normal.  I have seen many dogs that need a few minutes to settle into the dog park.  They just want to sniff, pee, maybe poop, and then after a few minutes t hey are ready to play.



     

  • RyuRyu
    Posts: 1623


    Wow - I go home after work and come back and there's like 20 threads to go through! :-)



    Anyway, I called the other daycare on island and they won't even see us until 10 days after Ryu's neuter. So, that puts us around May 10th but I'm still going to keep our appointment (note: this was all supposed to come about because I work so much and wanted him to be socialized while I was gone... If he gets approved for daycare on the 10th, guess what's happening 1 month after that? I'll be unemployed! Just my luck, I tell ya). Anyway, I asked about their correction methods and they dont use any touch techniques, they simply separate the dogs having an issue and redirect to another area. At the most, they'll use a water squirt bottle to get their attention. So, we'll see.



    But other GREAT news! On our walk last evening, we ran into a 6 yr old Lab/Sheltie mix who was the exact same size as Ryu. To my surpise and JOY, the owner was very open to letting them play and dropped the leash to the lab mix (we were in a field far away from the road). She and Ryu played for about 10 minutes; like full-on, jumping, chest-butting, barking, running around play. There was so much slobber; Ryu's face was covered. I was so HAPPPPPY that he played so well :) (and that another owner was willing to let my dog jump all over his)



    It was fun.



    By the way, THANKS SO MUCH for all the advice about the daycare thing - I'm really happy that we cancelled our reservation with the first one - it just wasn't worth losing the headway we've gained with Ryu :)

  • okironokiron
    Posts: 735
    Lol glad Ryu had fun and so did you. Just keep your chin up Pam :)
  • That's great Pam! Sorry to hear you'll be unemployed though. Frown I guess that means more Ryu time!
  • scarletscarlet
    Posts: 562
    I've heard that our dogs will act differently in a daycare facility than they do with us around.  Jake probably needs a day or two in one, a good one, for his social skill development.  He's too possessive 'mine' 'mine' 'mine', my mom, my water, my ball (even if you had it first), my space.  Either that or he'll just have to hang around other Shibas who know proper doggie etiquette Smile 
    Post edited by scarlet at 2008-04-08 21:31:36
  • RyuRyu
    Posts: 1623
    No worries Dave :-) I've been wanting to quit my job for 2 years but I kept getting promoted so I stuck it out. We're moving in August so I'm going to quit on Jun 11 (to have some time to pack, set up transportation, etc.). But I'm thinking about pushing it forward to May 28 because I'm getting so anxious! It's terrible but I'm like a "slacker-over achiever" haha
  • RomiRomi
    Posts: 2722
    Pam - where are you guys moving to?
  • RyuRyu
    Posts: 1623


    We're moving to Fort Leonard Wood, MO. I'm getting really excited for the following things:



    1. A fenced-in yard (YEAH!!!!)



    2. Road trips (that last longer than 3 hours - that's about how long it takes to drive around this entire island)



    3. SNOW



    4. Adopting another Shiba (I'll save this for another thread hehe)



    5. Target!!!



    :-) Just a tad excited...I'm going to miss this place but I'm ready to get back to the mainland too

    Post edited by Ryu at 2008-04-08 23:01:33
  • The "slacker over achiever"? If I read that right, you are getting rewarded for doing nothing? That's frickin sweet. Why would you leave that gig? ;-)

    You're on Oahu? Because when I was there it took me an hour and half to do the round trip from Honolulu to the North Shore. You must be driving with aloha. :-P
  • RyuRyu
    Posts: 1623


    haha Dave, that's EXACTLY what I mean. :-) I work for the government so you can imagine how your tax dollars are being spent. I could do my job in about 15 hours a week but instead they insist that I'm here for 40. Basically, I work in Human Resources, and I staff 16 Army childcare centers on this island. I have about 450 employees at those centers and need to hire about 80 more to be fully staffed (however, this number always hovers around 80 because of our turnover). I keep trying to get them to let me work from home but no such luck :) ANYWAY, (sorry for my life story there), it's an easy job, the pay is nice but I just can't see myself doing this for the next 40 years....My dream is to start an adventure tours company out in the mountains (and Ryu can come hiking with us!) but that dream seems to be getting away from me. That's the thing about working for the government - the perks are nice so you get stuck doing what you hate because the money is good :-(



    Also, the trip around the island... we haven't done it in about 2 years but we started at the North Shore and drove down the east side of the island to Honolulu, up and around the west side back to the North Shore. There's only so much ocean you can see before you get bored :)

  • scarletscarlet
    Posts: 562


    Reading back thru this entire thread, as I should have done from the start, WOW, do I see Jake as a duplicate of Ryu.  I took Jake to obedience class at 5 months and got my first taste of his 'get out of my face' attitude growl.  When I mentioned it to the trainers they explained there was a difference between aggression and what Jake was exhibiting.  I always mention Shiba etiquette, and Brad confirms my words with his as 'Shibas Rules of Engagement'.  Neither Jake nor Ryu is aggressive but assertive against intolerable behavior.  Obnoxious dogs and the Shiba do not get along.  Unfortunately, there seems to always be ONE of those out in the park.  He's never been the aggressor.



    The only little spiff Jake has had with another Shiba was when Jake started playing with the males younger sister and the male took offense.  It was a little comical because although the older male was clearly PO'd, Jake ran in Shiba style and then returned to taunt the male.  I was glad the other Shiba owner understood and kept the older male calm and at bay.



    I think I'm gonna have to accept and understand that Jake will not always get along with every dog and be prepared to step in when needed, but I also feel that socialization with other dogs is a must for his continued growth.  As Jake matures (8.5 months) it becomes more clear that he thinks he's bigger than he is and is not afraid to assertively discipline a larger dog that gets in his face.  I must remain aware that the other dog may prefer a scuffle.  And, like you Pam, I hold my breath every time.

  • scarletscarlet
    Posts: 562
    As an after thought after watching the 'so cute' video with the 2 Akita Inus.  It just made me think, have you ever seen an Akita at a dog park?  Nope.  I have no doubt a fight would be instigated by another breed and then the Akita would finish it....
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 2242


    lol... The only fight Hilo was ever in at a dog park was with a Whippet! The Whippet attacked Hilo! lol!!



    Up to that point I didn't think Whippets had it in them.



    ----



    Pam - MO huh? That's a big change! You will be close to Heidi! (kinda)

  • Brad, isn't Heidi in Alberta? Nowhere near Missouri.
  • RomiRomi
    Posts: 2722
    LOL!!! If Jessica is right....Brad...I think you're a bit too stressed from work.  Go take a nice hot bubble bath with scented candles, clear your head and get back on here!  Or maybe you had mistaken MO for Montana instead of Missouri?  I've done that a couple of times...hehe.
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 2242


    lol... yea, I'm an idiot. When I saw "MO" I thought Montana, later at dinner I realized I was a tard and MO is not Montana... Sorry. I am having an embarrassing forum week. Frown



     

  • LeonbergerLeonberger
    Posts: 3580
    OK, if it helps, I thought it was Montana too. Although I am not American, so I don't know if it helps all that much...Tongue out
  • Brad: Every time you use the word "tard" (which is two or three times by my count) I think of the hospital scene in Idiocracy and LMAO.
  • brandon_wbrandon_w
    Posts: 3433


    I think Pam might be the first person to ever be excited about moving to MO (Missouri for those who are wondering).



    I don't even want to list all of the spats, dust ups, and small brawls Nemo has been in at the park.  Some his fault, some not.  That's why we go to the dog park at 8:30 at night in the dark.

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