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Hip Dysplasia?
  • robes325robes325
    Posts: 264
    So I have done a bunch of research and read a lot of the old threads about hip dysplasia, but im not sure if Blaine is showing signs of it. I always watch him when he runs and it does look like bunny hopping except his right hind leg is slightly ahead of his left.
    I was watching him intensely today when he was playing with a rottweiler puppy, but to be honest the rottie seemed to be running the same way too. I have looked at youtube videos of shibas running but they all seem to bunny hop. This video is similar to the way Blaine runs:



    Does anyone know of videos where shiba inus with hip dysplasia are running? Blaine also roaches his back sometimes when he gets up (usually from a nap) and sometimes he frog sits. His breeder says that both lines of his parents have no problems with hip dysplasia and that they both have no medical problems. Any advice on this?
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4786
    What are their OFA scores?
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3664
    Sometimes odd walking can be contributed by bad knees as well, so you might want to have your vet check it out
    image
  • That video looks like normal running to me. Both my pups run like that (though with fuller body extension). The girl hasn't been tested yet, but the boy has and scored an excellent and their parents both tested fine (though admittedly I don't entirely understand how to read the Pennhip scores).

    If you have the kennel name it's easy to look up their scores at offa.org. The parents should score fair or above. Some breeders will only breed dogs that score "good" and above. Unless you do Pennhip, it would be hard to ascertain whether Blaine has hip dysplasia, given his youth. Unless it is fairly severe, it doesn't generally show up until 2 years or older. Parents with mild hip dysplasia might not exhibit signs until quite a bit older than two years so best to check OFA scores. I think Sunyata and Shibamistress both have dogs with mild HD so you might want to ping them.
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 2242
    Looks fine to me. It's best to judge it at a trot or walk, if he bunny hops during that then I would be more concerned, but at full run most dogs will bunny hop some.

    He could stand to lose a few pounds tho. That will help him if he does have a knee or hip issue (sorry if that offends you, just being honest).

    ----
  • robes325robes325
    Posts: 264
    brada1878@ The video is not of my shiba inu, but the way the dog runs is similar to how blaine runs. When he trots or runs slowly he does not hop at all. Its mainly when he runs really fast that it almost looks like hopping.
  • curlytailscurlytails
    Posts: 2779
    I think a lot of Shibas are rather fond of the "frog sit" (especially in these hot summer months!) so I wouldn't take that alone as a sign of concern. But as has been said, if you do have concerns, it's best not just to rely on breeder statements (unless they ARE offering you documented health histories of the parents and any siblings), but to consult the public OFA scores and bring what you know to your vet.
    image
    Bowdu 寶肚 (Shiba) and Bowpi 寶媲 (Basenji) with M.C.
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 2242
    @robes325 - Oh, good, then I didn't offend you. ;o)

    And, duh, the dog is cream and Blaine is not. I'm slow today, I guess.

    ----
    Post edited by BradA1878 at 2011-08-11 18:50:16
  • Stef777Stef777
    Posts: 246
    I've been wondering the same thing for kendaux. I rescued him from the pound so have no idea about his parents or their health. He is only about 11/2 and I read its better to get them tested after about 2 years old.

    What I'm really concerned about is the way he walks. He really sways his hips when he is walking slowly. Has anyone else seen their shiba do this?
  • AWE46M3AWE46M3
    Posts: 357
    What is this "frog sit" that is being referred to? Any pics of it?
  • curlytailscurlytails
    Posts: 2779
    I thought Robes was describing something like this:

    bowdu-legs2

    bowdu-legs1

    EDIT: Or this!
    http://64.90.176.36/picturecontest/3-frog-dog?page=1
    image
    Bowdu 寶肚 (Shiba) and Bowpi 寶媲 (Basenji) with M.C.
    Post edited by curlytails at 2011-08-11 19:25:28
  • @stef777- Sukoshi has HD and her hips do sway when she walks. If you look at her topline from behind, her walk movement is kind of "snakey". Next time you are at vet with Kendaux, have the vet watch his walk and gait.
  • robes325robes325
    Posts: 264
    @curlytails, he doesnt actually sit like that. Ive only seen the frog sit position in a youtube video of a puppy and it was a lot different. It was this video:




    I think im being paranoid about this and Blaine is actually fine. His breeder said it is highly unlikely he has hip dysplasia. I looked up the OFA scores of his parents (which were actually on his bloodline chart) and both were fine. Im glad though that ive learned more about the signs and hopefully nothing develops in the future.
  • curlytailscurlytails
    Posts: 2779
    Ahhh, I see. Guess I went off another of my tangents then. The frog sit you showed looks rather similar to the "Basenji slouch" or the silly "lotus position" thing Bowpi does, but what is a cute little quirk of one breed can easily be a matter of concern in another...

    Meditative slouch

    That's a very helpful but sad video. Definitely lots of stuff on Youtube to help educate yourself on what to look for, but if you start looking at too many, paranoia does creep in. I've been there too.
    image
    Bowdu 寶肚 (Shiba) and Bowpi 寶媲 (Basenji) with M.C.
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3664
    When you get him neutered you can always get x-rays done at the same time. Since he'll be under anyways, that'll be the cheapest time to get x-rays as it would only be an add-on. When Miyu gets spayed, I'm getting her hips and knees x-rayed, just to make sure she's developing right.
    image
  • robes325robes325
    Posts: 264
    Unfortunately we got it done yesterday before I started this thread. He is here and barely noticed he got neutered.
  • StaticNfuzzStaticNfuzz
    Posts: 1814
    You can't go by the video really. The dog has some structure issues that cause him to not track correctly, (plus he/she is overweight). However, this does not mean he has or does not have hip dysplasia. Externally it can be very hard to tell even if one has viewed a lot of dogs move good and bad. Even an expert can be steered incorrectly just by view alone. The x-rays will reveal so much more.

    Also hip scores on parents do not mean a dog will or will throw offspring with poor hips. It does happen from time to time that parents have good hips and a pup will end up to have poor hips and vise versa. It will give you a guess and better average, but truly the x-ray will be the only way to determine that.

    Snf
    Post edited by StaticNfuzz at 2011-08-12 13:04:32
  • The sit probably isn't indicative of anything. My girl has always done the frog pose (not the one you said Blaine does, but the other one with the legs splayed out behind her). She sits in what MC referred to as the "lotus" pose (love that name btw) but she only started that after knee surgery/acl surgery and she hasn't got full mobility back in that back leg.

    The hopping? I think it's hard to tell from watching.

    Luxating patella is more common in shibas than hip dysplasia, not to say they never get HD, though. What were the parent's OFA scores on their hips and knees? That would probably tell you more, though of course that is not a guarantee either (both my male dog's parents have at least good on OFA--I don't remember the scores offhand--and he does have mild LP anyway). But it does give you a better idea of if you really need to worry about it or not.

    If he's not in pain, I wouldn't worry right now, and probably wouldn't get xrays at this stage unless there are more symptoms.
  • Wow reading this thread actually gets me scared that my hiro may have either HD/LP...

    He does the "frog" sit and also runs more like a deer.

    Hes about 8 months old now (Born Jan 27) and I was planning on taking him in to get neutuered. Would this be a good time to just get some x rays done? And Will it show both LP/HD? Im also curious, if the xrays come back negative does that leave him in the clear or could it develop later on?
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    It could develop later on I think I dunno.. I've gotten Saya a xray during her spay it'll be good to do it then.

    I've seen Saya's xrays her hips and stuff looks great very solid..

    I've seen videos of shiba running and playing and lot of them when runing do hop..

    LP hase different grades some don't need surgery just keep weight at normal and give joint support..

    Since Saya is raw fed I prefer going natural route for joint stuff and give chicken feet and beef gullet instead of pills or powder..

    Might as well get them done while he's under so they can move the feet in place with not much issue.

    Shiba in video seemed fine, but I dunno..
    Photobucket
    Nicole, 5year old Bella(Boxer), and 4year old Saya(Shiba inu)
    Post edited by Saya at 2011-08-13 17:34:05
  • SakuSaku
    Posts: 372
    After I found out that Saku was from BYB..I always wonder if he has HD or LP...I think I might take him to vet for x-ray soon.

    Are there any supplement good for the joint or shiba in general?Saku & Mina's mom
  • robes325robes325
    Posts: 264
    How can you tell if a dog is in pain or not? My shiba barely makes any noise so even if he was in pain im not sure how I could recognize it.
  • Does he seem reluctant to exercise? Have trouble getting up? Carry one leg? Limp even slightly? Ever do a "mule kick" which is kicking one back leg out as if he's trying to get something off his foot (they are actually trying to slip the patella back in place when they do that).

    Does he seem reluctant to have you manipulate his legs at all? Another sign is panting--not regular panting, but a slower type of panting, often with a pause between the deep breaths.

    I might have missed something, but is it just the bunny hop that has you worried? Because if that's the only symptom, I wouldn't think it was something to worry about. If there seems to be pain, or limping or another symptom, that might be something to consider. And of course if you either don't know what the parents OFA score was because they weren't ever examined, or because their grade was poor or average then it would be more of something I would watch for.

    @Saku: glucosamine/chondotrin is good for joint health in people and animals, and is good to give to your Shiba.
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 2242
    @Saku - Do yourself a favor, don't go looking for problems. If you pay a vet to look for problems they will find them and be happy to take your money. Wait until you have good reason, like pain, to take your dog to the vet for otrtho issues. JMHO

    @robes325 - You will notice things like hesitance to go on walks, avoiding activities he usually enjoys, holding a leg up, limping... things like that. It will be obvious.

    ----
    Post edited by BradA1878 at 2011-08-13 20:17:46
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 2242
    oops, cross post(ed) with Lisa. :o)
  • robes325robes325
    Posts: 264
    Blaine stretches his back leg sometimes when he wakes up from a nap. I think this is just natural, but maybe its something to be concerned about? The only time he seems reluctant to walk is after he has run A LOT, but I feel like this is just because he is tired and not in pain.
  • SakuSaku
    Posts: 372
    @shibamistress - thank you for the detailed explanation and supplement recommendation! I will definitely look into that. Saku doesnt have those symptons you described but sometimes he walks like he has bow legs (like he has been sitting on a saddle all day) for a few minutes and then walk normal again. I just heard all the horrible story about byb so I was worried.

    @brada1878 - thanks for talking some senses in me. I actually made up my mind to book an appointment on Monday. You're right. Saku is happy and healthy right now and we just went for a long walk and a shiba meetup today. If he's in pain, he would not wrestle with his sister shiba just 15 min ago.Saku & Mina's mom
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3664
    Tikaani has LP, and I have noticed that even though he has a nice run, it isn't as loose as of my other two. I also noticed a dislike of me manipulating/touching his back legs, and an avoidance of stretching them back too often, as the knee is more likely to slip in that position.

    When it comes to hips, one thing a vet will look for is range of motion of the legs and how they react to the manipulation by the vet. With Miyu, I was like several people on this thread, looking for problems as I was expecting them after discovering Tikaani's LP. I was worried that she had really bad hips, since they were making a popping feeling. Needless to say, this was before/during her heat and experience should have told me that hormone changes can really screw with the joints. I took her to the vet, and he stretched her legs back saying that if there was an issue with her hips her legs wouldn't be able to stretch so far back without pain or stiffness. I spent $50 for him to tell me my dog was healthy, which relieved me but at the same time made me feel stupid for worrying so much.
    image
  • LosechLosech
    Posts: 2516
    Conker has LP but he's really active and it only slips out a couple times a month if that now (in both knees, right worse than left). I keep him on the slimmer side to avoid excess weight that would stress the joint, and also keeping him in shape and exercising often helps built muscle that will hold the joint in place better. He gets salmon oil for anti-inflammatory stuffs if it does slip, and a glucosamine/chondroitin/msm supplement to combat future arthritis.
    The supplements don't treat or cure LP, they are for preventive measures against damage.

    I agree with the others, don't worry unless you notice obvious signs. I had a feeling Conker was going to have LP when he was about five or six months old and his knees made slight popping sounds (doesn't always mean your pup will get LP or HD). But I didn't stress about it until I actually saw it slip out of place. I haven't had the grade diagnosesdyet but I will ask the vet next time I take Conker in since it hasn't been serious and doesn't bother him.
  • Ah the irony. Last night Toby came inside from being out in the yard holding one leg up. I knew what it was right away of course. I was able to easily slip the patella back in place*, which scared him, but I don't think hurt him, and he's walking fine again, but I can see it feels odd and he's still favoring it a bit this morning.

    Well, he's gained weight while I've been out of town, and hasn't had much exericise so it's back to his regime of fish and veggies and walks, I think! He has a mild grade of LP and usually only has an occasional mule kick episode every 4-5 months or so, so last night was the first time I've seen him favor it. I'm hoping we'll be able to take care of it with diet and exercise and supplements, as two Shiba knee surgeries in one year is way out of my budget.

    *Don't try to do this unless you know how to. My vet showed me, and made me practice, both so I would know what it feel like when the patella is out of place and so I could slide it back if it slides easily, but I still feel really nervous doing it and only do it if it is it easy to feel it will slide back. If you don't know what you're doing, you really DON'T want to be messing around with it.
  • So I am in a pickle:

    Banjo seems to be favoring his right rear leg when he runs, and he does a "lazy sit" (instead of his butt resting on his ankles, his legs are off to the side and his butt is flat on the ground) if that makes sense.

    I don't know if this is a knee or hip issue. If it's a hip issue, it won't be covered by insurance until january 2015 and won't be covered at all since it was diagnosed during the waiting period.

    That being said, if it is a knee issue, it's covered today and for life.

    I don't know if this is a minor thing that will go away (I noticed it a few days ago when we were playing fetch), a hip thing which I don't know if I should have diagnosed immediately (again, citing insurance) or a knee thing in which case I'll bring him to the vet tomorrow?

    Am I an overconcerned pet parent? or should I go see a vet ASAP?




  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 3495
    @BanjoTheBetaDog how do you tell he's favoring his right leg when he runs?

    The lazy sit is normal (if i'm picturing it right) which is something all my dogs do. I actually prefer they sit that way since it wont stress their joints.
  • it looks like he is using both hind legs simultaneously and it looks as if less pressure is being put on the right leg. He doesn't seem in pain though. Here is a picture of another dog doing the sit I am describing:

    http://meditationsformindfulness.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Dog-Stay.jpg

  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 3495
    @BanjoTheBetaDog

    Yea that is the sit I see a lot of dogs do. I don't see any problem with dogs sitting like that lol.
  • whew, ok. That's a relief. I am still a little worried since he is also slipping on my hardwood floor when he tries to turn on it.

    I am thinking a vet visit is in line for the weekend.

  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 3495
    @BanjoTheBetaDog

    If you see him slip often, put rugs/carpets in those area. Better to avoid them slipping as it might cause a vet visit down the line.

  • jennjenn
    Posts: 856
    Rigby started sitting like that a lot after his neuter. I assumed it was because that area was uncomfortable for him to sit normally on. Now he does it every once in awhile, we call it the "lazy sit".

    He also slips on hardwoods at my parent's, but he also is running like a madman so... :P Keep an eye on it, but it sounds like Banjo is probably just fine.
    Jenn, Shiba Slave to Rigby / http://hellorigby.com
    Post edited by jenn at 2014-03-26 02:28:08
  • RAM25RAM25
    Posts: 317
    If it's any consolation, I was convinced Shinobi had a hip problem/luxating patella; we've recently had her fully x-rayed and she has nothing noticeably wrong with her at all. The vet said sometimes the little dogs can hve high grooves in their knees which can grind slightly and cause the dogs to seem as though they're favouring one leg. The vet said really not to worry about it.
  • There is def. something wrong. When he starts to runhis back right leg won't be on the ground, and when he climbs stairs he won't use that leg. I've had to try to grab him during the shiba 500 to stop him from hurting himself further. Going to make an appointment to see the vet later.
  • Kira_KiraKira_Kira
    Posts: 2482
    I hope maybe he's just hurt it and is favoring the leg. Sending well wishes your way that everything will be fine at your vet visit today. Good luck!
    Cynthia, Proudly owned by Kira
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  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 3495
    @BanjoTheBetaDog

    Good luck! Hope its nothing serious. Have you tried massaging that leg yourself? Bootz pulled her muscle on her right back leg before, it took 1-2 weeks to heal. I even visit the vet, and after $50 he basically just told me what I already knew and told me to wait. :(
  • jennjenn
    Posts: 856
    oh no! hope banjo is okay. good luck at the vet!
    Jenn, Shiba Slave to Rigby / http://hellorigby.com
  • Yeah, he looks to be getting better. He saw his friend on the walk today and played like a champion. I think I am going to hold off on the vet until Saturday. I appreciate all of your well wishes though =)

  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 3495
    @BanjoTheBetaDog

    Make sure you physically examine the leg he's not favoring....use your hands to apply a little bit of pressure...see if he yelps or get uncomfortable.
  • He doesn't yelp or get uncomfortable for the most part with any physical touching from me. When I first saw the shiba scream, I ignored it (my thought was "awww, poor baby stepped in a puddle??... I am not falling for your shiba tricks. Toughen up you little brat!"). Now he doesn't do it, but I learned the mannerism when he is thinking about doing it and he starts to toughen up and not do it (like a kid who fell off his bike and doesn't wanna cry because he has too much pride).

    Anyways, the first vet couldn't find anything so we are going to another one later today. He is still favoring that leg. No matter how hard I press, he simply doesn't seem to care. I know something is wrong because my building has 2 exits from which we are allowed to take our pets, and one requires you to climb 4 steps. He won't use that leg when climbing steps and if he starts to run, he won't use that leg for the first 2-4 steps. The first vet said there was paw discoloration on that leg.

    Not sure if that is normal or not. When I squeezed his paw, he didn't flinch. I'll post an update later so if someone searches their symptoms vs his they have a little more info!


  • I will tonight!! Great suggestion and thanks!

  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 3495
    @Banjothebetadog

    Did you try the joints? Shoulder blade. Muscle near the arm pit?
  • all of it. the vet said he showed no signs of pain (i was in there during the exam and i agree although he way hyper. I had to hold him. I don't want anyone else subduing my dog). They suggest putting him under and doing x-rays to diagnose dysplasia. That other video above showed MUCH worse than Banjo. Im gonna go to a more holistic vet.

    I just got back from a walk (in the rain) and he looked fine except for the first of the stairs. Couldn't take a video.
  • littlebearlittlebear
    Posts: 144
    @BanjoTheBetaDog
    I am Kuma' s human from the above video. When we were trying to figure out what was wrong with Kuma the vet said no stairs, no jumping and no going for a walk to see if possibly something was just pulled. After resting for a period of time, we tried walking again, which is the video. Kuma only did this when on a walk and not even on every walk. Never saw his "limp" while running and playing and he never acted like he was in pain. Maybe talk to your vet about resting for a period of time. Good luck and I hope Banjo is better soon!
  • So we were coming off two weeks of "rest" (rest meaning no running. He still got his walks [how else would he pee], but instead of fetch, I taught him tug (I literally had to get down on all 4's and play bow and use my mouth to teach him this wasn't a time he should hand over the toy. When I said drop, he dropped it. No, I will not post my gf's video of said lesson). When I took him outside using the stairs his weekend, he was fine. I let him run a little inside (he shiba 500'd) and looked ok.

    I'm going to gradually increase his exercise and monitor him closely. The trainer had his bro in law (a vet from Oklahoma who is in town) do an in home visit sunday (at the trainers house..l.e. his second home) and he said it may just be 'growing pains' and he didn't think I should worry but still monitor it.

    He suggested gradually increasing his exercise over the next two weeks, and keep running sessions short.

    I will keep everyone up to date. Thanks for your concern!

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