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Puppy on "adult" food?

  • Joey came from the breeder eating Eukanuba small breed puppy food. Ick. Now that he's settled in a bit and eating better, I want to think about putting him on a higher quality food. I am in the process of switching Lucy from Royal Canin Potato and Venison formula to Natural Balance Sweet Potato and Venison formula. According the the Natural Balance website, that food can be fed to puppies but in much larger quantities...A less than 10 pound puppy should get 1 1/3 - 2 cups per day whereas Lucy at 16 pounds should get 1 - 1.5 cups per day. If Joey is over 20 pounds (which I suspect he will be) he should be getting 3 - 4 2/3 cups per day! Right now, if he eats 3/4 of a cup of his food I'm very happy.



    What do you guys think about feeding Joey the same food that Lucy is on? It has always been my plan to switch him to it once he gets off puppy food, but now I'm wondering if I should just go ahead and do it now. I am a bit concerned that he won't eat enough, but I suspect that will change as he gets older.  

  • RomiRomi
    Posts: 2722


    Im not sure how that would effect his growth.  I know that puppy formula's have different nutrients than adult food that is geared towards growth and maintenance of the puppy since the puppy is actively growing.  Ninja and Portia always switch bowls...its like a routine, they eat half and then switch, so they get a mix of both puppy and adult.  Once Ninja is done with his puppy food, I will be switching him to adult, he should be about 8.5 months then.

  • sujewelsujewel
    Posts: 2541


    If I recall correctly, that's a pretty big debate in the dog world. Some people don't think puppy food is good quality at all. Their thinking is that puppies grow too quickly and cause growth spurts which are particularly distressing to larger breed dogs. The flip side of the coin is that adult food is too high in protein and fat.



    I would look and write down the contents of the two types of food your thinking of giving Joey. If the numbers are very, very different. Consult your doctor.


  • Eukanuba:



    Crude Protein not less than
    32.00
    %



    Crude Fat not less than
    21.00
    %



    Crude Fiber not more than
    4.00
    %



    Moisture not more than
    10.00
    %



    Vitamin E not less than
    140
    IU/kg



    Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA) not less than
    0.1
    %*



    Omega-6 Fatty Acids not less than
    3.35
    %*



    Omega-3 Fatty Acids not less than
    0.45
    %*



     



    Natural Balance:



    Crude
    Protein

    20.0%
    minimum




    Crude
    Fat

    10.0%
    minimum




    Crude
    Fiber

    4.0%
    maximum



    Moisture
    10.0%
    maximum




    Calcium
    1.1%
    minimum



    Phosphorous
    0.9%
    minimum



    Omega
    3 Fatty Acids

    0.5%
    minimum




    Omega
    6 Fatty Acids


    2.0% minimum




    ----



    I guess that settles that one. Any puppy food suggestions?

    Post edited by [Deleted User] at 2008-03-31 19:05:28
  • sujewelsujewel
    Posts: 2541


    Good Article....


    peteducation.com
  • kwyldkwyld
    Posts: 506
    Dave I have a book on dog and cat nutrition and it has charts that calculate the amount of kilocalories a puppy needs based on it's age and weight, also it's estimated adult body weight. How much does Joey weigh now, how old is he, and what will his adult weight be you think?

  • I forgot to ask what he weighed during his last vet check, but I would estimate six pounds. He is 10 weeks old and I think he is going to be about 25 pounds fully grown.



    Thanks Kelly!

  • Thanks for the link Barbara, that was very interesting!
  • kwyldkwyld
    Posts: 506
    This is based on a dog's estimated adult weight of 20 lbs.
    2 mons at 6 lbs-500 kcals,
    3 mons at 8 lbs-522 kcals,
    4 mons at 11 lbs-550 kcals,
    6 mons at 13.7 lbs-589 kcals,
    9 mons at 16.3 lbs-628 kcals,
    12 mons at 18.8 lbs-637 kcals,
    12+(Adult) at 20 lbs-653 kcals.
    This obviously means kilocalories per day.
    I look at the amount of kcals per cup a food has and feed my dogs according to the amount they need based on their weight, as opposed to the feeding guidelines on the back of the bag. I think the most important thing is just feeding a food that has a good quality, digestable protein, and remember meats have the full amino acid profiles that are the building blocks for growth and development in dogs. You can feed a food like Eukanuba for instance that has a high protein content from grains, but the puppy might not be getting all the amino acids it needs like it would from a food that derives it's protein from meats. I don't even know if bags of food list the amino acid amounts in them. Does anyone know of a brand that does off hand?
    Puppies need moderate to high levels of protein and fat, it's the high cacium and phosphorus you have to careful of in grain free foods if you have a large breed puppy.
    Post edited by kwyld at 2008-04-01 21:47:44
  • Thanks Kelly. That's great information! I got distracted with work last night so I haven't really made a decision yet. I plan to in the next few days though.
  • I know a lot of people really like Orijen. Have any of you had any experience with Orijen puppy?  It is 42/20 protein/fat which seems really high to me.
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 2242


    There have been some people that have had issues when they switched their pups to Orijen - Jen & Tommy, Romi [I think], & Huku's dad's brother's Akita (Teddy is his name, if you can even follow what I just wrote.) have all had issues on Orijen.



    So, my point is, it seems to be up to the dog... our dogs all have sensitive GI and do great on Orijen, if we switch them to other high quality foods the get sick (yes, we mix it slowly).



    My vet had to take her dog of Orijen because he developed Struvite Crystals from the high protein content of the food but that is specific to her breed (Beagle & Bassett mix have a genetic predisposition to Struvite Crystals especially on high protein diets).



    Everything I have read says Akita do better on higher protein diets - I would think it would be similar for the other Japanese Spitz breeds.

  • sujewelsujewel
    Posts: 2541
    Sounds a little high to me from the little research I did. But Brad is right. It does depend on the dog.
  • Grrrr. I'm tired of making food decisions. I just went through this with Lucy. Why can't someone that is trustworthy just tell us what the right food is damn it!
  • sujewelsujewel
    Posts: 2541
    What about Solid Gold?
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 2242


    You just need to get a small bag and try it, if it doesn't work switch to something else.



    Solid gold gives our dogs horrible gas.



    There is really no "perfect" food tho - except maybe BARF or what they would eat in the wild...



    we feed Orijen mixed with some RAW and Tripe (switch between them) and have done that for about a year and a half and had no issues.



    I can point you to countless articles (like the one in Whole Dog Journal) that say a higher protein diet is better for a dog, old and young... then you can go to a pet shop and hear some guy tell you that you are killing your dog by giving a high protein diet. You will never win.



    It's like cars - everyone has an opinion on which car is the best, you never know till you just buy one and see for your self... and even then your opinion may be different than the norm.



    get a small bag, try it, if it works keep it, if not get a different bag/brand.



    ----



    Another route maybe to contact this person:



    http://www.betterdogcare.com/?page=consultations



     

    Post edited by BradA1878 at 2008-04-02 22:57:40
  • Hmmmm. I haven't looked into that yet. Thanks for the suggestion!

  • Oh crap...somehow I missed Brad's post.



    The volume of contradictory and unreliable information out there is just dizzying. I've read a lot and have found myself more confused than I was when I was totally ignorant. One article I read said that low protein diets are bad and high protein diets are ok as long as it is high quality protein. Another article I read said that high protein diets are bad, can lead to improper bone development, loose stool, and digestive problems. I don't know what to believe. And more frustrating, I don't know what food to choose. If I had Lucy on a food that I was happy with, I would just let Joey follow in her footsteps, but Lucy may be having problems with the Natural Balance that I'm switching her to. This, of course, makes it even tougher and more unnerving to choose something for Joey.



    Baaaah.  

  • When Himiko arrives next week I am slowly going to be transitioning her from what Katja was feeding her (I never got around to sending a bag of Orijen) to Orijen puppy. Both Moto and Piglet thrive on it (the adult formula)with no intestinal distress whatsoever.
  • brandon_wbrandon_w
    Posts: 3433


    Dave there just is no right food, which sucks.  Nemo does great on Orijen, just as Brad's dogs do, however Nemo also does great on Solid Gold's Bark at the Moon, which gives Brad's dogs gas.  Nemo does awful on chicken based protiens (runny poops) and almost as bad on EVO Red Meat.



    Some of their reactions might also have to do with what supplements you are feeding them besides the food.  I think the best thing to do is try and find 2-3 types (not brands) of food with different protiens and rotate them about every 4 months.  I have two of my final three, Orijen and Solid Gold and still need to find my third. 



    I have read about a decent amount of dogs (Shibas and others) that just don't do so hot on the grain free high protien.  I think finding what is best for your dog is an evolving process that never really stops.


  • Thanks for the suggestions. I gave up trying to decipher everything yesterday and just bought a small bag of Orijen puppy to try. He's had three meals with some of it mixed in so far and seems to really like it. He has eaten more than usual in those three meals and if there is anything left, its his old food. So far so good with the stool and gas so I've got my fingers crossed.



    Thanks! 

  • MommyofNikoMommyofNiko
    Posts: 2728
    Our girls are PSYCHO over Orijen.  We had to get the fish (which is pricier) because they cant keep it in stock.  We buy the big bags and keep saying we need to call but by the time we need it we forget to call to see if they have it,
  • grandemugrandemu
    Posts: 232
    I'm sure Sora would do fine on Orijen, but the bc's digestive systems couldn't take the protein content. Stokes would probably be fine, but he gains weight really easily, so he doesn't need the extra boost. Like everyone's said...it depends on the dogs
  • hondruhondru
    Posts: 529
    I had to buy a bag of different dog food because they didn't have Orijen and I was out of food (and the petstore I buy the food from is an hour's drive away).  When I gave it to the dogs, they were kind of like, WTF is this?!  They were glad when they got their Orijen back, lol.
    -Heidi, with Rakka (shikoku) and Sosuke (kai ken)
  • RomiRomi
    Posts: 2722


    Portia was on Science Diet Lamb & Rice Adult and Ninja was on Science Diet Lamb & Rice puppy.  I switched them to Orijen Adult and Orijen Puppy about a month after getting Ninja.  Their stool started getting very soft and even runny sometimes and they were farting like crazy (and very smelly).  I was also mixing in Nature's Variety Canned with the kibble for their dinners.  I just recently switched to Evo Red Meat Small Bites Adult kibble and mixing in The Honest Kitchen Verve dehydrated raw with their dinners.  It has made a huge difference! Their stools are pretty firm and they seem to really like it alot.  They do fart every now and then but they aren't as stinky as before when they were on Orijen.



    I agree with Brandon, there really is no right food.  You just have to keep trying different one's until you find the perfect match for your dog.  Good Luck!

  • LeonbergerLeonberger
    Posts: 3580


    Kuma seems to have got used and comfortable with Acana Large Breed Puppy. His stools are firm and small, and almost don't smell, which is always a plus. He sometimes farts and they're kind of bad, hehehe. Nyx farts less, but makes up for it in power, lol.



    I've started to mix the peanut oil in Kuma's food, following Michael's tip. At first he didn't like it much, but now he's pretty much used to it. I wonder if cod liver oil would serve the same purpose, since it might have other advantages. 

  • MommyofNikoMommyofNiko
    Posts: 2728
    I know fish oil is the best but considering prices we havent bought it.  We were told to just use veggie oil or olive oil...never thought of peanut oil.  The oil DOES help there skin and coats immensely...what would be best other than fish oil?
  • brandon_wbrandon_w
    Posts: 3433
    Fish oil that you buy in squirt cans for dogs is pretty expensive.  However you can use the pills that are made for humans to take.  You can find them at Walgreens or any other drug store, I just throw the pills right on Nemo's kibble and he eats them.
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 2242
    We give fish oil and Solid Gold's "Seameal" <- Those combined really help our dogs coats.
  • kwyldkwyld
    Posts: 506
    Dave, you can always buy books on animal nutrition that are authored by board certified veterinary nutritionists or holistic veterinarians. That's what I did and it helped me to find out what information is true and what is best for each of my dogs.
  • Thanks for the suggestion Kelly. I'll add that to my queue of books to read. :-/

  • I love adding fish oil. Keep the bottle closed tight though. Moto got the bottle opened it, dragged it through the house, poured himself a good puddle on the old guest bed (has since been replaced) and licked it until he was sick.



    He smelled like fish for months, but boy his coat was shiny! 

  • sujewelsujewel
    Posts: 2541
    LMAO, Jess.
  • LeonbergerLeonberger
    Posts: 3580
    LOL Jess, I think I'll keep any such bottles out of their reach!
  • Moto has a way of getting the things he wants huh? First the fish oil, then the cookies? What else haven't you told us about Jess? ;-)
  • brandon_wbrandon_w
    Posts: 3433


    I love Moto.  Stories like that don't make me dislike dogs, they make me want another one.  What's wrong with me?



    Stinky little Moto.  He is a devil. 

  • I often describe him as a devil in a dog suit. There was also the cheese wheel nut sampler incident this past Christmas, A coffee table, copius amounts of cat poop (not anymore though, we installed a chain on the door, the cars fit but the dogs don't YAY!!!), some dining room chairs, my homework (not kidding), shoes, sock, bottle caps, bottles...you name it.
  • brandon_wbrandon_w
    Posts: 3433
    One time Nemo started chewing on my subwoffer right in front of me.  I looked at him in shock for a moment and then was just like "WTF!".  He proceeded to playbow and wag his tail, as he does everytime he does something naughty.  What he love the most though is pens, nothing like having  a dog with blue spots on his fur from where he chewed through the ink part.
  • Moto and Nemo were separated at birth I tell ya. He is a pen chewer too. Actually anything plastic. Now plastic AND expensive, even better!
  • MommyofNikoMommyofNiko
    Posts: 2728
    Niko is a rug muncher!  She is terrible!
  • Moto lost interest in carpet quickly. Thank GOD
  • brandon_wbrandon_w
    Posts: 3433


    Nemo destroyed two phones and a couple of pairs of sunglasses at his foster home.  Jennifer's current cellphone is the first one to not have chew marks on it (after 3 years of having the dog).  Plastic is apparently, really good for chewing.

  • MommyofNikoMommyofNiko
    Posts: 2728
    Sasha ate a wall in her foster home....
  • RomiRomi
    Posts: 2722


    I agree, dogs and plastic are like a match made in heaven.  I don't know what it is, but every dog I've had always chews on anything plastic.  Portia chewed up 4 pairs of glasses and Ninja has gotten into pens.  I have those gel pens and one day after getting home from work, there were black spots all over the carpet...that was really fun getting out.  And water bottles, they will chew on those forever if they could.  I don't know whats so special about plastic...but I wish they would stop~!  I've spent over 1k on glasses in the last 8 months Yell.  But then again, its my fault that I leave them where they can get them...Bad Romi Bad!

  • MommyofNikoMommyofNiko
    Posts: 2728
    yeah it is not our fault....we should know better!
  • ddowdemersddowdemers
    Posts: 670


    What about remote controls?  We have gone thru at least 4!!   TV,DVD, Bose radio, etc.

  • RomiRomi
    Posts: 2722
    Oh man, we have to remember to always put our remote controls in our night stand drawers or its gone!  Weird thing is that they only chew up the ones for our bedroom.  (we have 3 different remotes, cable, tv, dvd)  But they don't even bother with the ones in our living room.  And its not like they only chew one.  They have to chew up all of them.  It sucks!
  • LeonbergerLeonberger
    Posts: 3580


    Kuma started on the door stop of the entrance door. It's a thing that's screwed to the floor and then has a cap. The cap has come out 3 or 4 times, I didn't even know it came out...



    But that's the only thing (so far, I know...) that he's chewed and he wasn't supposed to. Of course we're on our 4th week together and I have to go buy the 3rd rawhide bone for him... 

  • sujewelsujewel
    Posts: 2541


    Whoa. I missed a bit.



    Both dogs chew on things, but Mika is the expensive chewer. The worse was the speaker wires to the Martin Logan speakers. All you geeks out there know that you don't buy cheap wire fore Martin Logans....Kurt was beyond pissed. Most recently, it was the wire to the doorbell. I was pissed about the BRAND New bluetooth headset and the BRAND NEW pair of shoes. Grrrrr. Though she's been known to chew drywall, plastic bottles and their caps....among other things.



    Keigo loves tearing up pillows and bath mats.When we first got him (damn cat keeps typingYell)  he put his mouth on the end of my Ethan Allen dining room table. Put a little divit (Romi, how do you spell that?Sealed) in it, right in front of me. I scared him so much, he's never touched a piece of furniture again. Oddly, he doesn't do any chewing anymore.  He will steal things. Pillow, shoes, slippers, ANYthing and lick it to death. But that it.

  • ljowen123ljowen123
    Posts: 3105


    Jazz is much more likely to lick than to chew.  The only thing she truly chews on (other than chews) is the one frankenstein stuffed toy, which is hers anyway.  I guess she must have grown out of that before I got her! Laughing



     



     

    LJ - owned by Queen Jazz, a Shiba Inu, Atlanta, GA
    CSC_0144
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