I see no problem with it. Breeders don't always know what they'll end up with. You mate two black and tans, and end up with a litter that is mostly reds and sesames some of the time.
Tiger Lily has a white area around her nose going in a stripe up between her eyes, it isn't "breed standard" but we like it, and she won't be breeding anyhow.
There is no problem as stated before. The AKC breed standard which is derived from the japanese standard which is the breeds country of origin states the acceptable colors to be shown for the Shiba are red, black and tan and sesame. Thats it, there is nothing wrong with them. As reputable breeders we try to breed to the standard, again, no other reason.
The comment in caps is obviously a joke relating to those who are so concerned with non-standard colored shibas as being a problem. And IF you have a shiba that is a non-standard color, I can understand taking offense to the idea that your dog is or has a "problem."
Sorry, but there is absolutely no way that when you breed two black and tans that you can get reds and sesames. In this respect, it is entirely predictable as long the dogs that are supposed to be the parents are the parents. (Meaning no switch-a-roo, no escapees, no 'oops', etc.)
The comments regarding color pulled from the other thread:
okiron "You know, as long as the important things are a priority (health, temperament, etc) I don't see why wanting a specific color or look is such a taboo. You're gonna have the dog for 10+ years and pay around a grand or more on it, what is so damn wrong with having a preference on the color of its fur?
I just see it so often around here and other animal forums. People can't show a preference in color without someone having to point out that "as long as the pup is healthy, you shouldn't care". What is so wrong with caring?"
lindsayt "If color is the priority, than something is wrong with that. I think that's all anyone has been saying.
Serkle k "... IMO - I think the main problem is not that people dont care about what the color is, but it's that they put color preference ahead of overall health and well being. Many people that I meet that say they want a specific color dog (not just shibas) never, and I mean never, think twice about overall health and well being. Case in point being pitbulls esp. "blue" pits... People dont take into consideration that hereditary traits aren't confined to color, size, and sex."
okiron "Maybe that's what you guys are saying (which is great and I agree with) but the ones I was talking about, they're pretty much guilting everyone for having a preference at all. Sure if John Smith just joined the forum and you didn't know him then it might be better to point out the temperament + health > color thing but if I decided to want a cream shiba I would hope that people would understand that I would still go with a reputable breeder, I might have to wait a long time for one to pop up but just because Rina decides to want a "bad" color doesn't mean Rina will go through stupid ways to get one."
Serkle k "well there's the rub.... an ethical shiba breeder would not look to breed for a cream. if it happens, it's by genetic "luck" if you will, because in the current state of the breed standards a cream shiba isn't desired. Many ethical breeders will likely not look to fulfill that request. While the cream gene has not been linked to any health issues, for show purposes (at least in USA) its not desired so it's not likely to happen. In the end most people will still sacrifice overall general health and well being over color and convenience/availability of said color."
shibamistress "I don't really understand the color thing myself (from the opposite pov of Rina is talking about). Meaning sure, I would love to have a brindle Akita, but I also didn't want to wait for one to show up, and because the good breeders often have little room to maneuver (waiting lists, probably not a lot of pups they will sell on companion contracts) it just doesn't seem worth it. So I don't get why people would be that concerned about color. I really don't understand why they would to wait for something that is a fault (ie. cream in shibas or a long coat in Akitas). I'm just baffled by it, honestly. It's the least important thing in the list. That said, if the only pup someone had for me was white, I might not take it, as it is my least favorite color. And I would not have taken a long coat either. Neither effect health in Akitas/Shibas, but I just didn't want one.
So I guess I can't really answer, except that the vast majority of people who are concerned about color are NOT doing what Rina is talking about--making a decision and preparing to wait for it--but rather are acting like color is the most important thing. Or so it appears."
Tengai "If someone is waiting for a specific color, and a litter does not produce one they have a choice take what is available, wait for another litter or take a refund if applicable. I am not going to force someone to take a pup if that's not what they were looking for. Yes color, coat lenght are cosmetic. Health and temperament are more important, but everyone has preferences for what they want. BTW I love creams my kids love creams. We haven't produced one yet(notice I say yet) but we have the potential to at any point since it is behind some of my dogs. Nothing wrong with producing them happens to everyone, same with long coats not a health issue. Someone earlier mentioned glaucoma. There actually is a test, gonisoscopy, measures pressures and angles in eye. If I'm not mistaken can tell you if a dog is predispositioned to get glaucoma, not that they will def. get it."
okiron K - So if I said I would love a cream shiba and if a pup just happens to pop up in your litter it would have a home with me = please breed for a cream pup and fulfill my request? It has and will pop up in litters even from ethical breeders. If you're willing to wait for a funk what's wrong with it?
sunyata I guess I can kind of understand preference when it comes to pups. However, like Lisa, I would probably not wait around for a preferred colour.
When I was originally looking for a Shiba, I REALLY wanted a B&T. I had my heart set on it, and therefore, Bella came into my life. Unfortunately, she came by less than reputable means. (She is the product of a BYB)
When I wanted to add a second Shiba, I had learned about puppy mills, BYB's, and reputable breeders. So after a lot of research, I decided on a show breeder that was within driving distance. I wanted a red puppy and advised the breeder of my preference. However, the litter only had one red Shiba, and she decided to keep that one for show. The other pups were sesame or B&T. The B&T pups were slated for show homes. The sesame Shiba had some minor faults (white socks), so that is how I ended up with Nola. And as it turns out, Nola has an even bigger fault... She has mild HD. Whether this is related to her off colouring/marking, who knows.
Anyway, where I am going with this, is that I understand that there are colour preferences. And I understand that some people may have the patience to wait for the colour/personality/health combination from a good breeder. So I think as long as the buyer knows that by not budging on their colour preference, they will have a (much) longer wait time, then by all means... Have at it. That being said, I think buyers that turn to less than responsible breeders in order to get their colour preference are more common than those who are willing to wait for their choice from a responsible breeder. Which is sad.
Serkle k As Phil said, the person will have a choice to wait for it to happen or take on a pup from the "hopeful" litter. Also as Phil said, the potential is (and may always) be there. To clarify my last post, an ethical breeder won't purposely look to breed creams. Does it happen, sure. But to a layman, if they see the opportunity to find a color first, they don't usually look past that color or opportunity.
If the person in the scenario existed more often then cream pups are born, there would be a serious waiting list for creams. But since the business model of supply and demand, as well as the label for exclusivity, people fall for mills and bybs.
I know there are a few very ethical breeders that have had creams pop up, and they were placed in homes right away.
The fine line lies between both ethics and responsibility. Not just for breeder, but for owner as well. If people were more educated on why it doesn't happen as often as people would like, then things would be so much different. Again, not just for Shiba's but for all pet animals in general.
mcsassy What's wrong with a cream Shiba, or any other color formation for that matter?
THEY ARE LIVING BEINGS...NOT A CAR WITH A PAINTJOB
Koni B. I have to say that I disagree with the notion that intentionally breeding a cream is "unethical." Seriously, that word means "morally wrong." Coat color is a cosmetic concern and does not relate to a dog's health, temperament, or quality of life. Not breeding in conformance with the cosmetic outlines of the standard may be a strong indicator that a breeder is not paying proper attention to other factors, but it's not proof and shouldn't be taken as such.
There is nothing wrong with a cream shiba, a mis-marked black and tan, a red with a white stripe up her nose, or a dark masked sesame... OTHER than the fact that they do not conform to the standard appearance set forth by Japan.
Since these dogs are Japanese in origin and are considered a national treasure in Japan, I feel that breeders in the US (as well as in other countries) should strive to conform to these standards. And this means breeding to get standard results. Breeding a cream Shiba, a mismarked Shiba, an over/under sized Shiba, etc. is not going to get a standard result. Therefore, it should not be done.
That being said, the law of averages and genetics says that even in the most calculated breeding, the possibility of having a non-standard Shiba is there. And these non-standard Shibas will make excellent companions. However, in a show ring, they will be faulted. And due to not keeping with the standard that the country of origin has set forth, should not be bred.
Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia. I Wander, I Ride
I don't think there's a problem with non-standard colored shibas in and of themselves. A breeder producing a number of non-standard dogs is likely to be perceived as having poor breeding practices, and the assumption is that it extends beyond cosmetic things like coat color.
I think it's unfortunate that the immediate response to seeing that is to sling labels like "unethical" instead of doing something more helpful like (GENTLY!) educating people on the importance of responsible breeding.
Haven't we already had a thread like this about color? I'm pretty sure we have. And as we have said ad nauseum on that topic, it has nothing to do with whether the dog makes a good pet or not. It's simply that color can be a disqualifying fault in the show ring, and as such, breeders who breed for conformation, as all good breeders should, will not TRY to breed nonstandard colors. They still show up occasionally.
There really is NO argument to this, and if people wouldn't take it personally when there is absolutely nothing personal about it, then we wouldn't even need to have yet another thread on a nonissue.
And frankly, we've all spent a ton of time educating people on what good breeders do and don't do, and so some us get really impatient with yet another uproar about something that we've talked to death when there is no issue in the first place.
@Koni - Shibas are not a rare breed. If they were a rare breed and did not have a plethora of healthy dogs that meet breed standards, I would say breeding a healthy cream to add genetic diversity would be fine. But there IS a plethora of healthy dogs that meet breed standards out there. There is no reason to breed an otherwise healthy, un-standard dog.
ETA - Except for selfish, for profit reasons, of course.
Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia. I Wander, I Ride
Intentionally breeding a cream dog to another dog in the US is unethical because it violates the Breeder CODE OF ETHICS set by our National Breed Club (NSCA). http://www.shibas.org/codeth.html
Masakado Shiba Inu www.masakadoshiba.wordpress.com "Common sense isn't so common"
The AKC standard is actually much more lax than the Japanese standard, and this is one issue I am glad they are respecting. Casey and Shibamistress, and Phil have all stated the major points. I really don't feel another discussion on cream color is going to be fruitful here.
Masakado Shiba Inu www.masakadoshiba.wordpress.com "Common sense isn't so common"
Intentionally violating a code of ethics that was agreed upon by a particular breeder would be unethical IMO. There are many ethical breeders who are not members of NSCA, but they do strive to follow the agreed upon breed standard accepted by AKC that was voted on by NSCA memebers.
Masakado Shiba Inu www.masakadoshiba.wordpress.com "Common sense isn't so common"
There really is NO argument to this, and if people wouldn't take it personally when there is absolutely nothing personal about it, then we wouldn't even need to have yet another thread on a nonissue.
Times like this I wish we had a karma feature lol.
I just got into the Shiba world with this past puppy. Before her I didn't even know what a Shiba Inu was. I will say when I first saw the breed and pictures of a cream, that is the color I wanted. However, creams were very hard to find so I went with a red (and I am very happy in that decision). I completely see where people are coming from, though, in that non-standard Shibas should not be bread. One of the reasons these dogs are so special and so unique (at least to me) is that for the most part they have been bread to a more standard quality than a lot of the other breeds out there.
I don't think there is anything wrong with a non "standard" shiba, but again, I see both sides.
I would like to know if my Shiba is of standard quality. I'm guessing she is not because I didn't get her from a top notch breeder. For those that know a lot more than me, could you tell me how mine looks? I don't have any pictures to post here right now, but if you go to www.dailypuppy.com my dog is on the first page and has some pictures there. Thanks
@Ayk: Yes, it is possible. When the parents have two alpha dominant genes that counteract with each other, they can produce a different gene than expected. Take for example the parents genes are: Black and black, the dominant genes can counteract each other to produce a white puppy. For example, if two dominant genes are tall, the product could be short. Same with color.
I took a class on that about a year and a half ago:)
AWE46M3 - I think I should tweet my statement a bit.
If both Shiba parents are black & tan, they are most likely homzygous for the black/tan gene and they do not carry the gene for red. Without the gene for red, you cannot have a red dog and cannot produce one type of sesame which is refer to as sable in other breeds.
The other type of sesame requires a gene for agouti grey (think Shikoku). Agouti grey is slightly more dominant than black/tan but not as much as red. In other breeds, sometimes this can be mistaken for a black/tan with spectacles. This gene is very rare in shibas in the US, and so the odds are against producing this sesame-agouti grey from "black&tan" parents because that would mean both parents would have been mis-identified. To add to that, the chances of producing a sesame-agouti pup from these mis-id'ed parents would be only 25%. You cannot produce a red if this agouti gene is involved with these mistaken "black&tans".
It is possible to produce a cream pup from black/tan parents. The gene for cream doesn't compete on the same DNA location as red, agouti-grey, and black/tan.
Interesting thing about breed standards being selective vs. open about coat color is that trends will still create limits. For example, Siberian Husky standards allow for any coat color/pattern that's naturally occurring to the breed, which makes makes for about 12 different colors. Out of these 12, only 3 colors are consistently shown: grey/white, black/white and red/white. These colors are very popular, so much so that all the other colors are practically non-existent in the show world.
IndyAndSage - Color genetics is well explored in dogs. You mentioned co-dominant genes, but the thing is, red vs. black/tan are not co-dominant. The black/tan gene is a recessive while the red gene is a dominant. Black/tan dogs are homozygous recessives.
Just for the record, I didn't call anybody racist...I asked a simple question and yes it was in the form and matter of a joke.
On the other hand, I think as people the way some of us treat the dogs as if they are a toy or tool for showing off is irresponsible and unethical more so than breeding a certain color.
Show quality? OooOOhoOhOhOHOhoooooo good for you...your dog is slightly this color and slightly that shape. Wait, what? It has a dot on it's nose? DISQUALIFIED!!!
I say let nature take its course and create whatever gorgeous creatures it pleases and let them live and be. They all deserve the same opportunity at life, regardless of pigmentation. Where on this beautiful earth is it written that the Shiba Inu is only allowed to be a certain color other than what us humans have written and dictated for our own personal satisfaction and taste?
In my honest opinion, if we are going to choose who is and is not bred, it should be based upon disposition, temperament and character traits more so than just physical appearance.
With all that said, much love to ALL the Shibas out there!
Are you saying you think we are using our dogs as tools to show off? Please clarify if you will, who you are directing your comments too, or if this is just a sweeping generalization you are making about people who show and breed.
Masakado Shiba Inu www.masakadoshiba.wordpress.com "Common sense isn't so common"
@ayk - I think you should make a coat colour genetics website with interactive breedings. How fun would that be?! I love listening to genetics and playing around with possibilities when I understand them (which is usually only about 50% of the time!). :)
Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia. I Wander, I Ride
"Where on this beautiful earth is it written that the Shiba Inu is only allowed to be a certain color other than what us humans have written and dictated for our own personal satisfaction and taste?"
The thing is is that the shiba inu, or any other breed for that matter, wouldn't exist if humans hadn't dictated as such. With out a standard depicting guidelines for a breed, breeds wouldn't exist and there would be no predictability to the litters. Mutts would be common place, and there would be little of a way to tell if a litter from two specifics dogs would look anything like them or have similar temperaments. So standards as written by humans are needed to maintain the breeds that humans have created to begin with.
No one is saying that just because a dog has faults it deserves a bad life. We all feel that every dog deserves equal opportunity to happiness.
@mcsassy - You do realize that humans created ALL domesticated dogs, right? Therefore, the standards that these dogs should have are written by humans.
If you feel that you should 'let nature take its course', then there would be no Shibas.
ETA - Whoops, cross posted with Beth.
Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia. I Wander, I Ride
I think the only difference in treatment received by standard and non-standard shibas is that the latter is not allowed to breed. I don't think that's a big deal, and it certainly doesn't mean non-standard shibas will have a bad life. I'm failing to see the point of this thread.
A hypotheitcal: if breeders determined that dogs with 5 legs were part of a breed standard gee- mines only got 4 and I am sol.
Most of us enjoy the companionship of our Shibas regardless of their color- not everyone has the potential to be a professional baseball player but still enjoy pickup games.
Breeders have their niche and pet owners have theirs.
Regardless if my Shibas are standard or not, my boy is an inch too tall and my girl loves to eat. When people see them when I am walking they consistently comment how beautiful they are.
Breeders and show persons are pet owners, and we love our pets, and rescues, and non standard dogs, and shelter dogs, and mutts just as much as the next person.
Masakado Shiba Inu www.masakadoshiba.wordpress.com "Common sense isn't so common"
Yes, just because a shiba is a certain color doesn't mean it's going to live a worse life than say, a correctly marked shiba. I know it's been said before, but ethical breeders will not breed non-standard colors (cream, red headed black and tan, keyhole nose mark, etc.) because they are trying to correctly preserve the breed as written in the standard. And also, a couple others said this above, without the standard and breeders following it, there would be no shibas.
Mcsassy - that looks shouldn't matter at all. i'm just curious because according to your intro you started off looking at breeders. if looks really shouldn't matter, why not start with shelters and rescues? I can't speak for everyone but I go to a breeder because I am interested in that breed's standard.
What people made comments is how that breeder was a BYB shouldn't be breeding red headed black and tans I know of a breeder who has breed one to a cream shiba the same breeder seems to breed her females too many times a year and makes excuses when people ask her why she breeds like that.
There's a similar thread like this called cream bias..
Creams show up on some breeder's lines, but they don't breed for them and they have them sold as pets..
Main issue in the one thread was this breeder was breeding a red headed B&T calling it a show quality dog.
Color is nice, but health is more important look at me I wanted a B&T and got Saya she's good healthwise I guest except she reverse sneezes, has a spinal injury she bunny hops, but gets around find feeding a full prey modal raw diet has stopped her reverse sneezing and improved her joints so no way she is getting back on kibble even if I have to eat ramen noodles to keep her on raw..
Bella our white boxer she is a wonderful dog she has a mast cell tumor or something forgot my mom knows what type it is she is now also found to be hypothyroidism guess what she came from a BYB. I had no control over getting our next boxer over the online ads he didn't want to be on a waiting list and he wanted a puppy right now even though we weren't financially ready for one..
I love her very much, but if we were going to get a dog like that I'd prefered a rescue or from a better breeder. Bella's was in a family farm type house the whelping area wasn't too clean. I understand puppies makes messes, but food in the dirty stuff at least clean up before the customers come!
Just saying Health should be first, then temperament, then color.
I have no issues with people who have mismarked dogs it happens sometimes the dog might be a rescue whatever.
These conversations are always the same: people take offense at us pointing out what the BREED STANDARD is, and pointing out the obvious: that good breeders breed to standard, period. We are not condemning dogs that do conform to standard. Many of us have dogs like that ourselves. We are just saying that breeders are, yes, unethical (as in violating breed club ethics) if they purposely breed nonstandard dogs. To not condemn that is to act like it is ok for someone to breed, say, a Shiba-poo, because those puppies deserve to live, and who are we to say it is wrong? It's a false argument. No one said the dogs didn't deserve to live. No one said they might not even be cute puppies. We're just saying that ethical breeders do not cross breed dogs. Same with color.
And when the nonstandard colors or coats show up, breeders find loving homes for them. Nothing to do with the dog; just points out that like the vast majority of dogs, they should not be bred.
If you don't like the standard, fine. Don't get a purebred dog then, all of which were created by humans.
As far as I can see, we've been through the wringer with this argument endlessly, and it never gets anywhere. If someone wants to relive it, here it all is:
On a more useful note, here is a fairly straightforward discussion of coat color and genetics. I don't know much about canine genetics myself, which is why I so appreciating hearing from those that do (thanks Ayk), but this was useful for me: http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dogcolors.html I found in interesting that studies expected microphthalmia to be linked to coat color (brindle) in Akitas, but so far, have not actually found such a link. I mention this because in the older discussion of coat color, we talked about how in some breeds there is a link between white color (and some other color patterns) and rather serious health issues, but this does not seem to be the case in the Akita or Shiba.
When I started looking at breeders, it was the only thing that was recommended to me and at the time it was the only option I knew of. That was until I started educating myself further.
Since I was a child, I was always amazed with the look of the Shiba and the way it carries itself. Of course then, all I knew was what looks cool and can only base my decisions and perceptions upon that.
I'm now 24 years old and in the past few years (I was 21 when I started looking for a Shiba of my own) I have studied immensely about dogs of all sorts. Everything from training methods to relationships, diet, etc...the list goes on. I would just go into Barnes & Nobles and pull dog books off the shelves and spend hours reading. I wanted to absorb information from many different sources and viewpoints as to ready myself to be a good, responsible parent to my future furry child.
I was ignorant of the possibility of rescuing a dog before I started studying up on the potential benefits and realized that there are many wonderful dogs out there that need a loving home, thus leaving me to realize that purchasing a puppy was not the only viable option.
I honestly couldn't be happier with Nova and I do not take her for granted for one second of any day. I appreciate her to the fullest and every day that she is with me and healthy is a blessing. It kills me to know how many dogs are wrongfully placed into shelters and I've been doing a lot of volunteer work at rescues and shelters recently in order to give back to the community and help those in need.
There is nothing like the gift of giving...love is free and you can never run out of it.
I may have gone a little far with my words...you are correct in saying that if weren't for people breeding certain dogs, then there wouldn't be different breeds and a Shiba wouldn't exist.
At the same time, one of the things that attracts me to them the most is how close they are in resemblance to their ancestors...which correct me if I'm wrong, would be wolves.
I have no clue how some other breeds were formed because they look absolutely nothing like wolves, but I guess they were bred for certain purposes and nature allowed for that progression to occur. I am against the idea of "fashion dogs" though. Toys and what not that are used for an accessory (especially here in Los Angeles) ugh.
Why do we always have a discussion about non-standard and standard shibas? It seems once we get a new flow of members a discussion like this pops up with people being offended that we older forum members are "looking down" on their dogs. When in fact we do not look down at anyone or their dogs because we all love the dogs here. Whether they were from a BYB, mill, or reputable breeder does not matter once the shiba is here. We are a forum, here to help each other better understand breed standards and to make people aware of things such as BYB and mills. To help point people in the right direction when looking to find a breeder for their shiba.
So someone has a preference over another color. I would have loved a true sesame, but how long would I have waited for one? A pretty darn long time! Mika is a red sesame, is a smaller shiba, and would not fit the "standard". Does that make her less of a pet? No it doesn't. Does that mean she isn't as important or that I should have waited to get a puppy that would qualify better in the show ring? Course not. I wanted a pet and she just happened to be the runt of her litter. I was lucky to become her person.
So why are we arguing about color cause we shouldn't be.
@McSassy, um....Shibas don't look anything like wolves. Just like they don't look like foxes. And like all dogs, they were bred for a function. Even toy dogs were bred for a function at some point, even if that function was simply being a companion.
You could say they somewhat resemble an Ethiopian wolf: http://www.unep.org/dewa/africa/publications/aeo-1/images/img2b8.jpg but obviously they are not related to them. I suppose someone could make an argument that the long extinct Japanese wolf MIGHT have resembled the Ethiopian wolf, and thus the Shiba/JA MIGHT resemble that wolf, but that's several long leaps.
I'm as baffled by the wanting a dog to look like a wolf as I am by the concern about coat color, but that's a whole 'nother issue, and not one that is really related.
eta: whoa! Giant images! I'm not even sure how I did that! Sorry!
LoL, speaking of the function of toy breeds, many of the small European companion breeds that were developed during the Middle Ages had the job of keeping the fleas off the rich people. Fleas were a terrible thing back there, as the black plague proved, especially since they didn't really bathe much. Many of the wealthy people had bred/bought small dogs purely for carrying around and collect any fleas that may have jumped onto the person. Puts a different perspective to the idea of carrying a dog in your handbag
