I would like to add....

If anyone is interested in the breed, puppy or adult, it would be a very good idea to meet up with a few of the rescue organizations listed under the NSCA breed club http://www.shibas.org/rescue.html. Going to a meet up and seeing dogs and people in action is very beneficial, often individuals can point you in the right direction and answer questions before prospective owners make final decisions on the hows, wheres, and the whys, fully gaining information for best options on where to go etc. It is always good to make the most from the wealth of knowledge these groups can provide.

Snf

Great advice, Curlytails! This should be a sticky.

About questions #6, what if the breeder isn't in your state/area?

Agree that this would make a good "sticky" for both the Shiba and Nihon Ken sides.

Another question to ask a breeder: Are you familiar with your local or national breed rescues -- and what do you do to support them? (This could go w/ the lifetime return question.)

just FYI: my cousin did purchase a Shiba from a breeder that was listed on "Shibas.org" and he did not have a good experience.... it looks like they did update the site with "breeder of merit" logo next to the more reputable breeders. i think that's a plus.

As a northeast exhibitor and breeder I had to comment on this thread.
First off a great topic and questions to ask a breeder. Good comments too.
As to taking deposits
I very rarely take a deposit before a litter is born. Crap happens and you may not get the anticipated breeding/bitch does not take, or worse you lose a litter etc etc. I do keep an "interested list". I call/e-mail those interested when a breeding is done, pregnancy confirmed and litter is born to see who is still interested. When I do take a deposit it's usually when pups are a few weeks old at least.
Like most reputable breeders we always breed first to keep something to show, for either ourselves and/or breeder friends. Our deposits are always refundable(don't want someone to change their mind and feel forced into going through with it. We also will take a pup back anytime(lifetime) We screen homes, but a pup can be a handful and if a family is in too deep and decides hey this isn't for us we will take pup back, no questions asked and refund within 30 days (fortunately, or unfortunately there is always someone waiting in the wings for a pup.)
With our last litters we had only one boy, We initially had no interest in keeping a boy, he was and is drop dead beautiful and last minute we decided to keep him for a co-own show home. The family who though they were getting him was upset to say the least, but in our contract we have first decision on pups. They were offered a refund or a girl, decided on the girl. To tell you the truth I wish I wasn't in that situation to pull a pup from someone last minute. I may now wait to take deposits until pups are evalutated at 8 weeks just not to be in that situation again.
Just my thoughts /comments
Phil

I just wanted to share my experience. I did get a puppy from a breeder on Shibas.org. She doesn't have a wait list. She wasn't good on commucating with me. She didn't screen me at all. She was really bad at responding to emails. The only time she was responsive was the initial contact when I told her I was interested. After I put down my deposit, she was MIA, and then was only responsive after I submitted the remaining balance. Later on, I noticed that she changed her website to where in order for her pups to be guaranteed, you HAVE to put your puppy on certain supplements. Overall, not the best experience, but I do have a beautiful healthy puppy so far. *knock on wood*

If the breeder has a waiting list, I think it is important to discuss pet vs. show quality dogs, specifically what will happen if the breeder decides that more dogs are show quality than originally anticipated.

On the day that we were supposed to get our puppy, the breeder called to tell us that she had decided our puppy was show quality and she would not deliver him to us unless we agreed to let her show him. We had made it clear from the beginning that we were not interested in showing a dog, and she didn't say anything until that day about not giving us the puppy unless we showed him. We declined her "offer" and got back our deposit.

Koni (a puppy from a different breeder) is awesome, but I was heartbroken about not getting the puppy we had been visiting for weeks. Clearer communication would have made it much easier for me.

I still don't think #5 makes any sense.

Want to elaborate why, for the benefit of others who didn't see the discussion on the Nihon ken side? =)

Rereading my post about #8, I guess I wrote pretty much what Phil was saying in his post.

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This looks like a good resource for choosing a breeder/rescue: http://www.pupquest.org

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Back to #5. The show wins are nice, but THEY DON'T MATTER if the dogs are mistreated, people are defrauded, and if ethics are sacrificed to obtain them. Just because a dog (or a bitch) wins a BIS doesn't make it, or the breeder, good examples. A good breeder ought to at least have the humility and wisdom to recognize that show wins are not the foundation of a good breeding program, and that a quality dog is still a quality dog if it never sets foot in a show ring. Hmm, chasing rabbits in the sunshine or crated in a frigid cargo hold on a transatlantic flight to another show...not a hard choice as to what is better for the dog. I'm deprioritizing the show wins as of today since the most awful breeders are often rewarded with them in this breed. I honestly am not sure how to impress on prospective owners how important that is, but in general regarding dog shows, CH, GCH, BIS does not equate to quality, merit, care, knowledge or decent ethics.

I’d like to add another question that you may consider, though in many cases, you don’t even need to ask because the breeder will have this information listed on their website.

Are you a USDA or AKC-inspected kennel?

As far as the USDA is concerned, you want the answer to be NO.

Many online sellers will proudly announce the fact that they are a USDA licensed kennel as if it was a badge of honor, because it sounds good that they are licensed and inspected. The problem, however, is WHY are they licensed to begin with? It is an admission that they are selling enough puppies where USDA licensing becomes necessary in order for them to make their profit legally.

In other words, they are a puppy mill.

But you don’t have to take my word for it. You can read and review the licensing requirements yourself. They are separated into 2 classes: Class A ("breeders") and Class B ("brokers") Dealers. In both cases, USDA registration is necessary so that they can sell dogs to pet shops, brokers, dealers, exhibitors, and research facilities. The difference between Class A and B dealers is mainly about quantity, with Class B dealers being approved for "wholesale selling" and selling dogs that they didn't produce themselves. In other words, they're engaged in a level of business that is about far more than you and your pup, whether or not you're okay with that. This kind of USDA registration actually does less to govern direct sales to individual customers (which is why Internet sales are a great “loophole” for puppy mills) than sales to other industrial and commercial ventures.

Also note: USDA inspections rarely amount to more than an ineffectual, routine documentation of cruelty and abuses. They’ve admitted themselves that they have trouble policing their own system...

In short, having USDA registration is nothing to brag about. It may in fact be an easy way to cross a breeder off your list.

As for the AKC, if we’re talking specifically about Shibas, I think AKC is the only legitimate pet registration, for better or for worse. Yet, to be inspected by the AKC is not necessarily a good thing. It often means that the kennel has produced enough litters in a given span of time to catch inspectors’ attentions, or there may be questions about paternity because one dog has produced a large number of litters and so a DNA test is necessary, or that enough people have complained about a kennel so that the AKC will bother to do something about it.

The vast majority of kennels who register with the AKC are NOT inspected. The AKC was not designed to deal with inspections or regulation of puppy mills. Greater emphasis on enforcement of ethics was put on parent breed clubs (which is why Question #1 of the original Fully Vetted list is important). So it actually doesn't mean all that much to me if a kennel can pass its AKC inspections, either. But if they DON'T pass and have their AKC registrations suspended, that's a HUGE red flag...

I know this was lengthy, but I hope it's helpful.

Excellent point, M.C! Having a kennel that is required to be licensed and inspected by USDA is a HUGE red flag.

If the dogs are registered Nippo, they should also be registered AKC.

UKC is a joke. Anything can win in UKC.

@lindsayt.... Wasn't the comment about competing thrown out though?

As for NIPPO imports "should be dual registered", that's rather black and white isn't it? What if people think the AKC is the wrong registry that is using the wrong standard and ruining the breed?

@violet The UKC offers events as well. And there are other organizations that are performance-based rather than registry based. Agility, flyball, etc. They existed before the AKC thought of them.

Damn, I wrote a long post about about USDA and puppy mills and lost it. Ok, I'll start again.

But I would say that really, we can't afford to say we shouldn't have a "list" as people have been arguing on the NK side. Shibas are too popular, and too common in puppy mills. If anyone has any doubts of the need to have a list of guidelines than read about all the dogs here that people got from puppy mills and bad backyard breeders. Maybe those of us that have a lot of experience with this--some of you who are even breeders and really know the ins and outs of registration, etc.--can argue the finer points here, but people who don't know anything about how to find a good breeder DO need basic, clear guidelines.

Regarding puppy mills and USDA certification. I'm aiming at this at people who may have trouble identifying a puppy mill, as many people do. USDA certification is always a bad thing, as MC noted. But understand that not all puppy mills look as bad as the places you may have seen in news stories. There are the truly horrific places that no one would willingly buy a dog from, but understand that you could end up getting a dog from a place like this without knowing it: the breeder could ship dogs and you'd never see the place, or they could use a broker who sells the puppies away from the original place.

Some puppy mills may not seem so horrible. The kennels may be clean, and the dogs look (relatively) healthy. Perhaps the people who run the place are even nice people who seem to care about dogs. Still, they are breeding for profit, not for the betterment of the breed, and you're still very likely to get an unhealthy dog, if not immediately, than further down the road. Even if you are one of the rare people who get a relatively healthy dog (highly unlikely), please consider the lives of the adult dogs in these places. They don't have a life, other than being repeatedly bred and living in their kennels. Do you really want to support that kind of thing?

Sometimes it is hard to tell about some places, so if in doubt, ask someone who has more experience in the breed. If they tell you the place is likely a puppy mill, listen to them. Many of us here have already made the mistake of getting a dog from one of these places, and we're trying to educate others not to make the same mistake.

@ayk - I guess I should clarify my position. I don't actually think that the registry question is a great one, because I ultimately think that someone doing serious research should ask lots of questions. A breeder, regardless of registration, should be able to answer in great detail, how they aim to improve the breed. Most compete and are registered, but I'm sure there are people who don't necessarily do so and should be able to go on at length as to what they're doing to improve the breed, and how they relate to the breed club or registries, even if they don't choose to actively participate in it. For instance, a breeder focusing on hunting lines should be able to tell you these things even if they don't compete. I'd hope that if you're doing proper research, you would grill them on what they're doing, and how they relate to the other breeders, even if they're not in agreement (and I don't mean bs answers like you might get from a place like Icewind). I'd also hope that any person who is seriously looking, won't reflexively dismiss someone who isn't competing as long as they can provide a good reason as to why they are breeding and what the goals of their breeding program are.

That said, I think a large chunk of the ethical breeders out there are registered with one of these organizations. If a dog is NIPPO registered but not AKC or UKC registered, I want to hear why (because it is unusual). AKC or UKC registration alone also mean nothing. Their vision with their breeding program is important. I'd much rather hear about what their goals are with temperament, health, and looks, and why they put together a particular pair. A year ago I helped a friend find a vizsla breeder. One breeder went into her program and the breeding pair in detail: she included temperament, their 7 generation health history, and things like why she put a dog with this sort of bone density with a dog of this sort of build, because she was aiming for X. While not every ethical breeder will immediately offer that information, if I ask, I want to be told, even if the breeder thinks it may be above my head. I think a good breeder, if you're taking the time to visit, will both offer the information when asked and then the explanation as to why this is desirable for them and what that means in the context of the breed. That is ultimately more important than where they may be registered and why. At least for me.

Yes, exactly, MC. That's what I think, that someone who knows about the Nippo is beyond this list. That's why I've been a bit frustrated about questions about the validity of a list, because I think some of the questioning of the list is aimed at a different level of experience.

I know that when I got Bel from a puppy mill, the difference between AKC/Nippo registries would not have helped me at all, but a discussion of what a puppy mill is would have helped enormously.

Actually, I agree....I don't think the registry matters too much, but the USDA question is super important, and in that way, so is the AKC inspected one, because I've never heard of AKC inspecting a small, responsible breeder, only the big ones....

Good addition, Brad. One thing I noted about both of my favorite AA breeders, is when I told them who else I was considering getting a puppy from, they both had good things to say about the other, and both said they felt I would do well whichever I went with. that meant a lot to me. And there's a difference between someone with experience trying to cautiously warn you about a problem breeder (which I also ran into!) and someone who is badmouthing others.

This is a follow up to my earlier comment about breeders knowing about/supporting breed rescue.

I think it's important that a breeder be knowledgeable and supportive of breed rescue. I have heard about breeders in the Shiba and Jindo communities who do not support rescue efforts--or who have questionable business practices.

If someone is considering a breeder and they don't seem to understand "rescue", then I would consider contacting the local breed rescue folks to see if they have any experience(s) w/ this particular breeder.

My two bits.

Is there a way to find out if a breeder is USDA licensed for a different animal? Say, for example, that they show and breed border collies but also breed and sell sheep. Can it be determined that the license is for the sheep and not the dogs?