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How to find a good breeder

  • Alright, our first article. I thought I'd start with this one since I already have a draft from an email I sent to my Shiba meetup group. A few parts are focused on Shibas so it would be great if we could add some things about other breeds as well. Also, I'm going to have to spend some time looking for references since I know I've read a lot of this stuff on the internet somewhere. Also, I welcome suggestions on other things to include (like how to read pedigrees, what to do if you find a bad breeder, etc.)



    Anyway, here goes.....



    ---- 



    Finding a good breeder can be very difficult. Some of what I'm about to say is channeled from many online discussions I've had, many articles I've read, and a lot of advice I've gotten from other people. If I'm using someone else's words here without attribution, my sincere apologies. Its at the point where I've spent so much time thinking about and talking about this topic I forget where I learned what!



    A good place to start is with the breed specific clubs, like the National Shiba Club of America (www.shibas.org). Although not a guarantee, it is likely that the breeders listed on their site are some of the more reputable ones. Also, you want to judge their involvement in the club. Are they just a member or have they held an office? Are they involved in local (non-breed specific) clubs too? Bettering a breed doesn't just require knowing a lot about the specific breed they are interested in, but also knowing what other breeders are doing as well.



    Once you have narrowed down your choices, make some phone calls. Talk to the breeders. Try to understand their philosophy on breeding and placing puppies. If you can visit them, that is even better---especially if that visit comes at a time when there are no puppies on property (adorable little balls of fluff can distract you from what you went there to do). Don't be afraid to talk to the breeders about each other either. The breeders that I have talked to that I deem reputable all know of each other from shows. They won't necessarily bad mouth each other, but they will let you know with subtle clues what they think about each others dogs. Ask for references and contact *all* of them. Then ask for more references and contact them as well. As Rachael said, most reputable breeders don't need to advertise, they can sustain their hobby just by word of mouth and often have long waiting lists for their puppies.



    Make sure they provide a health guarantee. Reputable breeders will certify their dogs free of genetic defects for *at least* a year...I have even heard in some cases of a 10 year guarantee (although I must confess I have never come across one myself). Although after bonding with a dog for a few months I can't imagine being willing to give it back to the breeder, they should be willing to take it back and refund the purchase price if there are health problems. Also, some breeders will take their dogs back  no questions asked if your life circumstances change and you can no longer care for the dog (although they probably won't refund any money). They would rather find the dog a new home than have you find it a new home. If you are local, many breeders will board your dog for you when you go out of town too (for a fee of course).



    Also size is something important to look for. The time and effort that is required to keep track of bloodlines, to show dogs, and to raise properly socialized and fed puppies is enormous. One implication of this is that breeding more than one or two different breeds of dogs will likely make things unmanageable. Also, look at the number of litters they have each year compared to the number of bitches they have. From my understanding, bitches should not be bred in their first heat cycle, can be bred in the second and third, and then should skip at least one between litters after the third. If you do the math, this comes out to one litter per female per year and a half on average, maybe slightly more. Find out when they retire their dogs. Shiba bitches should be retired by six or seven years of age at the latest, but males can probably go another year or two after that.



    Most importantly, though, be patient! The last thing you want to do is let timing control your decision. Choosing to get a dog because they are available at the time you want and not because they are from the breeder you want can only lead to bad things happening.

  • okironokiron
    Posts: 735


    I'm going to type it up as if I'm writing on a thread, someone can redo it as an article lol 



    Sometimes you wont find out about the whole truth of a breeder till after the exchange of money and dogs or until a problem arises. That's why referrals are very important. Shady breeders are really good at disguising themselves until they have their money. I would be careful with a breeder who breeds a bunch of different breeds (ie 5 or more) or someone who ALWAYS has puppies available. It all depends on chemistry too. You could be a fantastic breeder but if I can't get along with you, I'll find someone else.

  • LeonbergerLeonberger
    Posts: 3580


    "A good breeder will be available to answer every question you have
    about the breed in general, or their dogs in particular. Don't be
    afraid to ask questions, as many as you need, and take notice of how
    they answer them. Normally, they won't mind the questions, and will be
    happy to help. After all it's their pups and possibles owners. A shady
    breeder will sometimes try to dodge questions.



    Good breeders will test the males and bitches they intend to breed
    for the majority (if not all) the genetic afflictions that target their
    specific breed. Always ask for those, ALWAYS. Hip displasia, as an
    example, on large breeds (and even on small ones) may affect the
    quality of life of your dog, even at an early age. Run form answers
    like "Can't you see he/she is free of displasia? Just look at those
    movements!" Research what afflictions target your breed and talk to
    breeder about them.



    Breeding dogs is a time consuming and expensive hobby/profession. So
    be wary of breeders that have "bargains" that are much cheaper than
    average. All the testing that needs to be done, the time spent
    researching, quality food for the dogs, veterinary care for all the
    dogs and other expenses cost money, some times a lot of money and that
    usually reflects on the price of the puppies. Be careful, just the
    price on its own is, obviously, not indicative of quality."



    That's what I can think of now...I don't know if this applies to the
    reality there. Around here, health warranty is in a strange place. I
    think the best that can be done is to test the parents thoroughly. But
    even with quality parents, you never know the outcome of genetic
    lottery. Around here breeders usually give you warranty against
    infections for an amount of time(depending on which infection it is) to
    assure dogs leave their kennels healthy.

  • RomiRomi
    Posts: 2722


    A good reputable breeder does not breed dogs to make money.  They won't sell their dogs to the first person who comes with cash in hand.  Too often, people buy puppies from "backyard breeders" who breed their dogs to make money.  The result of these practices include puppies with poor health or temperment problems that may not be discovered until years later.  Unfortunately, these new dog owners often end up heartbroken, with dogs that have genetic health problems or who develop behavior problems due to lack of early socialization.  In some cases, these problems can cost thousands to treat.



    So, to avoid these possible situations, look for a breeder who at the MINIMUM follows these requirements:



    1. Keeps dogs in the home as a part of the family, not outside in kennels for the first 8 weeks of their life.



    2. Has dogs who appear to be happy and healthy, are excited to meet new people, and don't shy away from visitors.



    3. Shows you where they keep the dogs for most of the time, which should be a clean and well maintained area.



    4. Encourages you to spend time with the puppies parents, at a minimum, the mother.



    5. Only breeds 1-3 types of dogs and is knowledgable about the "breed standards" (the characteristics of the breed, such as size, proportion, coat, color, and temperament)



    6. Shows you records of the veterinary visits for the puppies and explains the medical history of the puppies and also what vaccinations your new puppy will need.



    7. Explains in detail potential genetic problems inherent in the breed. And provides documentation that the puppy's parents and grandparents have been tested to ensure that they are free of these genetic problems.



    8. Provides references from other families who have purchased puppies.



    9. Provides you with a written contract and health guarantee and allows plenty of time for you to read it thoroughly.  The breeder should NOT require you to see a specific veterinarian.



    10. Doesn't always have puppies available, and will keep a list of interested people for the next available litter.



    Those are the top 10 important signs you should look for in a breeder to provide YOU with.  In addition, you should look for a breeder who will also require some things from YOU.  A responsible breeder would require you to do the following:



    1. Explain why you want a dog.



    2. Explain who in your family will be responsible for the puppy's daily care and where the dog will be staying most of the time.



    3. Provide proof from your landlord (if you rent) that you are allowed to have a dog.



    4. Sign a contract that you will spay or neuter the dog, unless you will be actively involved in showing him or her. (which applies to show-dog quality dogs only)



    5. Sign a contract stating in the event that you can no longer care for the dog, you will return the dog to the breeder at ANY point in the dog's life.



    Remember, your dog will likely live 10-20 years, so it's well worth investing some time now to be sure you are working with a reputable breeder who breeds happy, healthy dogs.  You can find breeders by referrals such as your veterinarian, trusted friends, or contacting local breed clubs.  Remember, a reputable breeder will NEVER sell a dog through a pet store.



    For buying a pup through a breeder across the country or out of the country where you cannot go visit the home of the puppy and meet him/her.  The breeder should be 10x more cautious of who he/she sells a pup to.  And you should be 10x more cautious of who you buy from. 



    ***ok, im a bit tired of typing...haha..i have been working on this for 2 hours.  Anyone feel free to add/edit anything in my post, I will if I catch anything or remember something else i missed*** 





  • BTW, nice job Romi! 



    Just bumping this up....does anyone have any other breed specific information they want to include? Maybe links to breed clubs, some information on Akita breeding practices (specifically timing the heat cycles)? How about other breeds?

  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 2240


    I have some info to add to this but I need to aggregate it, but I am limited on time right now. I will try to get to it later today or tomorrow.



    Nice job Romi! Smile

  • RomiRomi
    Posts: 2722
    Thanks guys!  Although its not all me.  I went to a lot of different sites and looked up what they had said about finding a good breeder and kind of picked and choosed what I thought was a good informaiton.  So i guess im a little cheater Tongue out

  • Haha, we're all cheaters. How do you think we got our information, trial and error? Tongue out



    ----



    No worries Brad, take your time. I just wanted to bump up the thread so it didn't get lost. 

  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 2240
    I can mark it so it will be sticky and stay at the top, but I have noticed people over look the threads that are kept at the top... what do you think? Sticky it or not?
  • I'll defer to your judgment on this one. It might be cool to keep the article we're currently working on at the top, but then again people may overlook it. I know I do, but I've read both of the sticky threads so I don't really need to pay attention.
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 2240


    I had a phone call with a friend of mine last night (Lenny, he is a forum member but has not posted in a LONG time) and he was asking me how to pick a puppy when he gets his Shikoku.



    We were talking about how hard it is because, with Shikoku, you can't really pick your pup based on temperament... like you can't go to the breeder, play with the pups and say "I want this puppy", because there is always a wait list and every dog is pretty much spoken for right off the bat.



    So, I had some suggestions for him, and I gave it a lot of thought to this last night... I was thinking that may be a great next article would be: "How To Choose The Right Puppy / Rescue".



    What do you guys think? I think its a good topic that would be specifically helpful for these breeds and all of us have experience with this (some more so than others but we have all been down this path either in rescue dogs or puppies from breeders).



    Thoughts?

  • RomiRomi
    Posts: 2722


    I think thats a great idea.  And will help a lot of new dog owners on choosing the right dog for their lifestyle and needs.  Good job Brad!



    BTW, I have started a draft for this article, i will post it up when Im done and you guys could read it over and make changes/corrections and then finalize it?

  • If I may, I would like to take the reigns on the the rescue article. I will start assembling some stuff this weekend.
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 2240


    Romi - Awesome! Thanx!



    Jessica - I hoping you would, you are the expert. Smile


  • Brad: I like the idea a lot. It would be great if we could talk about not just picking the right breed for your lifestyle, but as you said, picking the right dog specifically.



    Romi: You rock!



    Jessica: Thanks, I'm sure you're a fountain of knowledge on the topic.



    ----



    This is great! I'm stoked we're making progress.  

  • RomiRomi
    Posts: 2722


    OK! I just finished up the draft, here it is.  Please feel free to add/change/correct anything, Im not perfect so there will probably be some errors and whatnot, i can handle the heat! BRING IT ON!



     



    HOW TO FIND A GOOD BREEDER



     



         First off, Congratulations on making the decision on adding a new puppy to your family!    Finding a good breeder can be very difficult, stressful and intimidating.  But remember, your dog will likely live 10-20 years, so it's well worth investing some time now to be sure you are working with a reputable breeder who breeds happy, healthy dogs.



         A good place to start is with breed specific clubs, for example, The National Shiba Club of America (
    www.shibas.org). Although not a guarantee, it is likely that the breeders listed on their site are some of the more reputable ones. Also, you want to judge their involvement in the club. Are they just a member or have they held an office? Are they involved in local (non-breed specific) clubs too? Bettering a breed doesn't just require knowing a lot about the specific breed they are interested in, but also knowing what other breeders are doing as well.



        Once you have narrowed down your choices, make some phone calls and talk to the breeders. Try to understand their philosophy on breeding and placing puppies. If you can visit them, even better---especially if that visit comes at a time when there are no puppies on property (adorable little balls of fluff can distract you from what you went there to do). Don't be afraid to talk to the breeders about each other either. Most breeders that are deemed reputable usually know of each other from shows. They won't necessarily bad mouth each other, but they will let you know with subtle clues what they think about each other’s dogs. Ask for references and contact *all* of them. Then ask for more references and contact them as well.  Sometimes you won’t find out about the whole truth of a breeder until after the exchange of money and dogs or until a problem arises.  Bad breeders are very good at disguising themselves until they have their money.   Most reputable breeders don't need to advertise; they can sustain their hobby just by word of mouth and often have long waiting lists for their puppies.



         Make sure they provide a health guarantee. Reputable breeders will certify their dogs free of genetic defects for *at least* a year.  And even in some cases they provide a 10 year guarantee (although those are pretty hard to come by).  Although after bonding with a dog for a few months you wouldn’t be able to imagine willing to give it back to the breeder, they should be willing to take it back, refund the purchase price if there are health problems. Also, some breeders will take their dogs back no questions asked if your life circumstances change and you can no longer care for the dog (although they probably won't refund any money). They would rather find the dog a new home than have you find it a new home. If you are local, many breeders will board your dog for you when you go out of town too (for a fee of course).



         Also, size is something important to look for. The time and effort that is required to keep track of bloodlines, to show dogs, and to raise properly socialized and fed puppies is enormous. One implication of this is that breeding more than one or two different breeds of dogs will likely make things unmanageable.  Good breeders will test the males and bitches they intend to breed for the majority (if not all) the genetic afflictions that target their specific breed.     Research what afflictions target your breed and talk to the breeder about them.   Also, look at the number of litters they have each year compared to the number of bitches they have.  Bitches should not be bred in their first heat cycle, can be bred in the second and third, and then should skip at least one between litters after the third. If you do the math, this comes out to one litter per female per year and a half on average, maybe slightly more. Find out when they retire their dogs. For example, Shiba Inu bitches should be retired by six or seven years of age at the latest, but males can probably go another year or two after that.  Breeding dogs is a time consuming and very expensive hobby/profession.  Be wary of breeders that have “bargains” that are much cheaper than average.  Testing that needs to be done, quality food for the dogs, veterinary care for all the dogs and other expenses cost money, and a lot of that money reflects on the price of the puppies.
             



          A good reputable breeder does not breed dogs to make money.  They won't sell their dogs to the first person who comes with cash in hand.  Too often, people buy puppies from "backyard breeders" who breed their dogs to make money.  The result of these practices includes puppies with poor health or temperament problems that may not be discovered until years later.  Unfortunately, new dog owners often end up heartbroken, with dogs that have genetic health problems or who develop behavior problems due to lack of early socialization.  In some cases, these problems can cost thousands to treat.     



         So, to avoid these possible situations, look for a breeder who at the MINIMUM follows these requirements:  



    1.      Keeps dogs in the home as a part of the family, not outside in kennels for the first 8 weeks of their life.  



    2.      Has dogs who appear to be happy and healthy, are excited to meet new people, and don't shy away from visitors.  



    3.      Shows you where they keep the dogs for most of the time, which should be a clean and well maintained area.  



    4.      Encourages you to spend time with the puppy’s parents, at a minimum, the mother.  



    5.      Only breeds 1-3 types of dogs and is knowledgeable about the "breed standards" (the characteristics of the breed, such as size, proportion, coat, color, and temperament)  



    6.      Shows you records of the veterinary visits for the puppies and explains the medical history of the puppies and also what vaccinations your new puppy will need.  



    7.      Explains in detail potential genetic problems inherent in the breed. And provides documentation that the puppy's parents and grandparents have been tested to ensure that they are free of these genetic problems.  



    8.      Provides references from other families who have purchased puppies.  



    9.      Provides you with a written contract and health guarantee and allows plenty of time for you to read it thoroughly.  The breeder should NOT require you to see a specific veterinarian.  



    10.  Doesn't always have puppies available, and will keep a list of interested people for the next available litter.      



         Those are the top 10 important signs you should look for in a breeder to provide YOU with.  In addition, you should look for a breeder who will also require some things from YOU.  A responsible breeder would require you to do the following:  



    1.      Explain why you want a dog.  



    2.      Explain who in your family will be responsible for the puppy's daily care and where the dog will be staying most of the time.  



    3.      Provide proof from your landlord (if you rent) that you are allowed to have a dog.  



    4.      Sign a contract that you will spay or neuter the dog, unless you will be actively involved in showing him or her. (which applies to show-dog quality dogs only)  



    5.      Sign a contract stating in the event that you can no longer care for the dog, you will return the dog to the breeder at ANY point in the dog's life.      



         If you intend on buying a puppy through a breeder across the country or out of the country where you cannot go visit the home of the puppy and meet him/her.  The breeder should be 10 times more cautious of whom he/she sells a puppy to.  And you should be 10 times more cautious of whom you buy from.      



         Most importantly, be patient! The last thing you want to do is let timing control your decision. Choosing to get a dog because they are available at the time you want and not because they are from the breeder you want can only lead to bad things happening. And always remember, a reputable breeder will NEVER sell a dog through a pet store. 



    *edit* I formatted it in Word all nice but when I pasted it and saved, it showed up all messed up.  So...I just used the basics to get it on here.

    Post edited by Romi at 2008-03-22 23:43:26
  • RomiRomi
    Posts: 2722
    by the way, I edited some stuff when you guys used "I" "ME" so it doesn't seem like its all written by 1 person.  Also, i didn't know if this was shiba specific, so I changed the wording on somethings to "for example" when referring to Shiba stuff. 

  • Brad: Did you still want to add some stuff to this?



    ----



    Romi: I just realized I never complimented you on a great job!!!!!! Sorry. :-( I noticed one or two minor things that I'll fix once Brad has added his material or decided against it. 

  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 2240


    Oh yea, I never really posted again did I?.... I don't think I have thing to add at this point to be honest, you guys covered pretty much everything I was thinking.



    ----



    I think this looks great!



    ----



    The DNS is all up to date now: http://www.nihonkenhelp.org/



    So I guess we need to get a site up so we can migrating these to their final location....

  • hondruhondru
    Posts: 529
    Wow, awesome work guys!  Just wanted to say that it is do good that I have nothing to add.  Also, I'm really looking forward to Jessica's rescue article.  I know that'll be a good one (no pressure, though, right? Wink)
    -Heidi, with Rakka (shikoku) and Sosuke (kai ken)

  • A few minor edits: 



     



    HOW TO FIND A GOOD BREEDER



     



         First off, Congratulations on making the decision on adding a new puppy to your family!    Finding a good breeder can be very difficult, stressful and intimidating.  But
    remember, your dog will hopefully live 10-20 years, so it's well worth
    investing some time now to be sure you are working with a reputable
    breeder who breeds happy, healthy dogs. Some of the information contained in this article is written about the Japanese breeds, however most of it is applicable to any dog breed. 




         A good place to start is with breed specific clubs, for example, The National Shiba Club of America (
    www.shibas.org) or the Akita Club of America (http://www.akitaclub.org/).
    Although not a guarantee, it is likely that the breeders listed on
    their site are some of the more reputable ones. Also, you want to judge
    their involvement in the club. Are they just a member or have they held
    an office? Are they involved in local (non-breed specific) clubs too?
    Bettering a breed doesn't just require knowing a lot about the specific
    breed they are interested in, but also knowing what enthusiasts of other breeds are
    doing as well.



        Once you have narrowed down your choices, make some
    phone calls and talk to the breeders. Try to understand their
    philosophy on breeding and placing puppies. If you can visit them, even
    better---especially if that visit comes at a time when there are no
    puppies on property (adorable little balls of fluff can distract you
    from what you went there to do). Don't be afraid to talk to the
    breeders about each other either. Most breeders that are deemed
    reputable usually know of each other from shows. They won't necessarily
    bad mouth each other, but they will let you know with subtle clues what
    they think about each other’s dogs. Ask for references and contact
    *all* of them. Then ask for more references and contact them as well.  Sometimes
    you won’t find out about the whole truth of a breeder until after the
    exchange of money and dogs or until a problem arises.  Bad breeders are very good at disguising themselves until they have their money.   Most
    reputable breeders don't need to advertise; they can sustain their
    hobby just by word of mouth and often have long waiting lists for their
    puppies.



         Make sure they provide a health guarantee. Reputable
    breeders will certify their dogs free of genetic defects for *at least*
    a year.  In some cases they may even provide as many as 10 years of guaranteed health (although that is very hard to come by).  Despite not being able to imagine parting with your dog after bonding for a few months,
    they should be willing to take it back and refund the purchase price if
    there are (significant) health problems. Also, some breeders will take their dogs
    back no questions asked if your life circumstances change and you can
    no longer care for the dog (although they probably won't refund any
    money). They would rather find the dog a new home than have you find it
    a new home. If you are local, some breeders may board your dog for you
    when you go out of town too (for a fee of course).



         Also, size is something important to look for. The
    time, effort, and money that is required to keep track of bloodlines, to show
    dogs, and to raise properly socialized and fed puppies is enormous. One
    implication of this is that breeding more than one or two different
    breeds of dogs will likely make things unmanageable.  Good
    breeders will test the males and bitches they intend to breed for the
    majority (if not all) the genetic afflictions that are common to their
    specific breed.  Research the common afflictions for your chosen breed and talk to the breeder about them. Also, look at the number of litters they have each year compared to the number of bitches they have.  Shiba Inu bitches, for example,
    should not be bred in their first heat cycle, can be bred in the second
    and third, and then should skip at least one between litters after the
    third. If you do the math, this comes out to one litter per female per
    year and a half on average, maybe slightly more. Find out when they
    retire their dogs. For example, Shiba Inu bitches should be retired by
    six years of age (or seven at the very latest), but males can probably go
    another year or two after that.  Breeding dogs is a time consuming and very expensive hobby/profession.  Be wary of breeders that have “bargains” that are much cheaper than average.  Testing
    that needs to be done, quality food for the dogs, veterinary care for
    all the dogs and other expenses cost money, and a lot of that money
    reflects on the price of the puppies.
             



          A reputable breeder does not breed dogs to make money.  They
    won't sell their dogs to the first person who comes with cash in hand. 
    Too often, people buy puppies from "backyard breeders" who breed their
    dogs to make money.  These practices can result in poor health or temperament problems that may not be discovered
    until years after you have bonded with your new puppy.  Unfortunately, new dog owners often end up
    heartbroken, with dogs that have genetic health problems or who develop
    behavior problems due to lack of early socialization.  In some cases,
    these problems can cost thousands to treat.
         



         So, to avoid these possible situations, look for a breeder who at the MINIMUM follows these requirements:  



    1.      Keeps dogs in the home as a part of the family, not outside in kennels for the first 8 weeks of their life.  



    2.      Has dogs who appear to be happy and healthy, are excited to meet new people, and don't shy away from visitors.  



    3.      Shows you where they keep the dogs for most of the time, which should be a clean, spacious, and well maintained area.  



    4.      Encourages you to spend time with the puppy’s parents---at a minimum, the mother.  



    5.      Only
    breeds 1-3 types of dogs and is knowledgeable about the "breed
    standards" (the characteristics of the breed, such as size, proportion,
    coat, color, and temperament).



    6.      Shows
    you records of the veterinary visits for the puppies and explains the
    medical history of the puppies and also what vaccinations your new
    puppy will need. 
     



    7.      Explains
    in detail potential genetic problems inherent in the breed and
    provides documentation that the puppy's parents and grandparents have
    been tested to ensure that they are free of these genetic problems. 
     



    8.      Provides references from other families who have purchased puppies.  



    9.      Provides
    you with a written contract and health guarantee and allows plenty of
    time for you to read it thoroughly.  The breeder should NOT require you
    to see a specific veterinarian. 
     



    10.  Doesn't always have puppies available, and will keep a list of interested people for the next available litter.      



         Those are
    the top 10 important things you should look for a breeder to provide
    YOU with.  In addition, you should look for a breeder who will also
    require some things from YOU.  A responsible breeder would require you
    to do the following: 
     



    1.      Explain why you want a dog.  



    2.      Explain who in your family will be responsible for the puppy's daily care and where the dog will be staying most of the time.  



    3.      Provide proof from your landlord (if you rent) that you are allowed to have a dog.  



    4.      Sign
    a contract that you will spay or neuter the dog, unless you will be
    actively involved in showing him or her (which applies to show-dog
    quality dogs only).
     



    5.      Sign
    a contract stating in the event that you can no longer care for the
    dog, you will return the dog to the breeder at ANY point in the dog's
    life. 
         



         If you
    intend on buying a puppy through a breeder across the country or out of
    the country where you cannot go visit the home of the puppy and meet
    him/her.  The breeder should be 10 times more cautious of whom he/she
    sells a puppy to.  And you should be 10 times more cautious of whom you
    buy from. 
         


         Most
    importantly, be patient! The last thing you want to do is let timing
    control your decision. Choosing to get a dog because they are available
    at the time you want and not because they are from the breeder
    you want can only lead to bad things happening. And always remember, a
    reputable breeder will NEVER sell a dog through a pet store.
  • RomiRomi
    Posts: 2722
    Great edits Dave! Wink
  • tsukitsunetsukitsune
    Posts: 6468


    I have a question about this thread - retired breeding dogs.. if a
    breeder gives her breeders away for free when they turn 6 or so - does
    that make her a good or bad breeder?



    we might be getting a foster/adoptee that is a 6yr old red sesame retired female breeder 

  • I would think that isn't really an indicator of quality at all. Yes, it is a good sign that they are retired by six, but there is so much else to consider it is impossible to tell just from that.
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 2240


    I agree 100% with Dave. It is good they are retiring them, but they still could have been bread like 10 times in that 6 years... that would be horrid... also kinda depends on how they give them away. Do that look for a forever home or just dump them at a rescue? ya know?



     

  • tsukitsunetsukitsune
    Posts: 6468


    they want to deal with me directly and not through the rescue so they don't have to give a surrender donation!

    she is just going to give her away for free, no questions asked, just wants me to come pick her up. However, I'm not set on adopting her permanently so I am insisting it go through the rescue and she can be my foster.



    She is NOT housebroken, spayed (obviously) - but not housebroken???

  • tsukitsunetsukitsune
    Posts: 6468
    my real concern is could this be a possible mill that should be investigated further?? i don't really know how to tell without actually being there.
  • How far away is it? If it isn't too far a trip, I think it would be prudent of you to go visit before you make your decision. If you are going to invest love, time, and money is this dog then you should make sure you know what you are getting. If this breeder is hesitant to allow you to visit or isn't willing to show you the conditions that the dogs are kept in, then I would say they are probably not reputable and you should be cautious about adopting the dog. Have they shown any interest in you? Have they asked about your lifestyle? Have they asked about the suitability of your home for their dog? If they aren't interested in knowing any of that, I would also raise a red flag.
  • okironokiron
    Posts: 735
    Sounds a little fishy with what you're telling us there Jennifer. If I was giving away a retired breeder, even for free, it'd be to a responsible forever home, not some rescue/foster situation where I wont know where my dog went.
  • RomiRomi
    Posts: 2722
    From what you've said, I wouldn't do it.  She is giving her away for free, no questions asked.  Key term here "NO QUESTIONS ASKED".  This is not a reputable breeder, most likely a mill.  No reputable breeder would release one of their dogs to anyone without asking ANY questions of the future life of the dog.
  • tsukitsunetsukitsune
    Posts: 6468


    I think if I feel this uncomfortable even just dealing with the
    breeder/mill lady I probably shouldn't get involved. Its too bad, Pudge
    is a beautiful puppy making machine of a Shiba, just gorgeous.



    Plus,
    in leu of the "Lucy's acting up" post, my husband and I are seriously
    considering not fostering for a while as we think we have some
    dominance issues beginning to arise. But fostering is a passion of
    mine!



    Thanks for the imput, just thinking about that poor dog
    puts a knot in my stomach. Mostly because she has another female
    breeder that she's retiring after she has her litter in May. It will
    probably end up the same as Pudge. So sad. 



    this is her website: daniellesdoggieden.com 

  • Jennifer, it sounds like you've made up your mind and from what you've said, I would have to agree with you. I can understand that fostering is a passion of yours. But even if you can't give that Shiba a home, you can still actively try to find it one. If the breeder doesn't want to pay the surrender fee to give it to the rescue group, maybe you can offer to pay it. There are many ways to help besides bringing a dog into your home. I'm sure you'll find them just as rewarding!

  • Personally I would report her to the local ASPCA. Indeed she sounds fishy. If not criminal.



    Just went on her site. Ugh. No question she is a puppy mill.  Pudge is cute, but she needs to be reported to the  authorities. Pebbles looks unhealthy even in pictures.

  • okironokiron
    Posts: 735


    I missed the url the first time around. Yeah, any "breeder" who breeds more than 2 breeds is a BIG red flag. How can they improve a breed if they're busy with 5 other completely different breeds? And even if just shibas she has so many different colorings going on. This is a no no in my book.

  • tsukitsunetsukitsune
    Posts: 6468
    I sent a 'red flag indicator' to the SPCA in her district. Hopefully they'll investigate!
  • ljowen123ljowen123
    Posts: 3105
    A local station in Atlanta - Fox 5 news has been doing a series on bad breeders/pet stores.

    http://www.myfoxatlanta.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail;jsessionid=CED3F8467B371C0C3199C5B76B938885?contentId=6578494&version=2&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=1.1.1&sflg=1
    LJ - owned by Queen Jazz, a Shiba Inu, Atlanta, GA
    CSC_0144
  • tsukitsunetsukitsune
    Posts: 6468
    this is a helpful link

    http://www.tengaishibas.com/files/A_Reputable_Breeder2.doc
  • StaticNfuzzStaticNfuzz
    Posts: 1814
    I will not comment on specific breeders, but I will say that anyone looking for ANY breed of dog needs to search the following by parents and cert number etc for medical history. If the breeder you select has not tested their animals or does not retest every 4 yrs or so then move on. Do your homework on the medical search. A CHIC designation for a particular dog is a good sign that they have covered more than one area.... Eyes, & hips, etc etc

    http://www.offa.org/

    If the breeder you are interested in is not able to supply the ids for the parents to allow a search and omits certification copy of the medical for hips or eyes in a take home folder when you decide to purchase including the vet name, think very carefully before putting your money down. Spiffy marketing, big ads and gushy photos mean nothing, its all fair game when you look on the internet or go to a magazine. No dog should be bred before testing and until somewhere around/after 2 yrs of age.

    You as the purchaser can put more pressure on the breed club by requesting that it be standard policy for those listed to make the information available. http://www.shibas.org/

    I suggest sticking with NSCA breeders although like any of the Japanese breeds you will probably will need to be placed on a waiting list many months in advance. Nothing about health is a 100% guarantee in life, but reducing the odds is at least half the battle.

    Snf
  • NekopanNekopan
    Posts: 403
    On choosing your own puppy from the litter: most reputable breeders will not let you pick your own pup. Instead, they ask you give them some idea as to your lifestyle and expectations for your dog, and they choose a puppy that will suit that. After all, they're the ones that have been around for those 8 weeks, not you.
  • Let me began by saying what a wonderful, informative article you guys posted! ^_^ But I have a question. My best friend (a dog lover like myself) has told me that a friend of hers has a pair of shiba inus she breeds, and that she actually GIVES AWAY the puppies for free. Her friend has offered a puppy before, but she refused because of her living arrangements. She knows how much I want a Shiba Inu and has said once the pair has puppies this year she will ask for one for me. I'm not getting my hopes up because my friend doesn't always come through on what she says, but she won't give me the breeder's contact information saying that the girl may get mad that she blabbed to me about her giving away expensive dogs for free. What my friend has told me is that the girl keeps all her animals inside, that she also breeds aerdelle terriers (sorry, if it's misspelled) andhas like ten cats. She says the girl is very good with her dogs and that they are all very well behaved. Should I ask more questions, let it go, or try to get the girl's contact information? Thanks.
  • LeonbergerLeonberger
    Posts: 3580
    My honest opinion is let it go.
  • ljowen123ljowen123
    Posts: 3105
    Let it go.
    LJ - owned by Queen Jazz, a Shiba Inu, Atlanta, GA
    CSC_0144
  • Thank you.
  • Stay away like the plague.
  • lol. Okay.
  • read this
  • curlytailscurlytails
    Posts: 2779
    Might I suggest that this is worth stickying, if some of the other stickies can be "unpegged". As it is, I have to scroll down from the first screen to get to new discussions, which isn't a big deal, but I think Dave is right that when there are too many stickies, they tend to be overlooked.

    I hope it's not too off-topic to add to this discussion my bringing in what I learned about good breeders from the elite examples I've seen on the breed-specific forum for the other dog in my house. =) One thing they stress is that when you find a good breeder, they are your BEST resource for the life of your dog. So when you have questions about anything from pet basics like housebreaking, socializing, to issues that pop up later like aggression, allergies, getting involved in agility or other events, or old age, your breeder can and should be your first line of contact. They should be able to provide you with thorough answers based on their own experience and familiarity with the breed.

    Some people are incredulous that a dog could be returned to the breeder any time in their life for any reason. But I've seen it happen before my very eyes on the other forum where the original breeders of the dogs in question swooped into the discussion and took over the reins. Literally! A 1.5-year-old that was starting to exhibit aggression issues with the children in the house? The breeder personally took the dog back to work with him for a week and then advised the owner on how to handle the situation. An owner who passed away with two elderly pets that would be hard to rehome? Even after 7 and 9 years, the original breeder took them back with the intention of taking complete responsibility for rehoming the dogs, allowing the deceased owner's children the assurance that their parent's loved pets would be well provided for. A responsible breeder should never be so stretched for time and space that they can't absorb one of their own line back into the fold, when the inevitable life circumstances happen. Should they find themselves stretched for resources, they will scale back or stop their breeding program altogether.

    I think this forum is more frequented by us pet owners, rather than those involved with showing or breeding shibas. I think it would be interesting to hear straight from a breeder how and why they do what they do. At any rate, if a prospective owner has questions or criticisms about a breeder's policies or standards, I think it's always worth asking. For example, if you don't like that you don't get to choose your shiba by coat color, ask why not. Maybe the breeder will tell you they place according to temperament and how it best fits with individuals' needs and expectations. If you don't like that your breeder requires a specific food or vitamin for the lifetime of your pet, ask why. The breeder should be fielding your questions for the remainder of your dog's life, so if they get impatient with your questions at the outset, that doesn't necessarily bode well for the rest of your relationship...

    And thankfully, this forum exists for those of us without the benefit of good breeders or who just want to share our love of shibas, with the hope that the breed will continue to improve over time. =)
    image
    Bowdu 寶肚 (Shiba) and Bowpi 寶媲 (Basenji) with M.C.
  • this is actually in the articles section under the help tab already. maybe we'll make some of the current sticky's articles to clean everything up a littl
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4784
    Bump
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
  • bump
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4784
    bumpsies!
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg

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