Well not extremely suspicious... just suspicious worrisome and anxious.

There is also another breeder here in Florida listed with the club, Patricia Gilliard whom I've Googled and is much more active within dog competitions and such.

Hmmmm....Well, I wouldn't buy for them. I find the fact that don't do "genetic screening" to be incredibly suspicious....what do they mean? They don't test for HP or LP? Thyroid? Eye issues? How do they know they are breeding the right dogs if none of their dogs are OFA or CERF certified? (Answer, they don't). The list of things they don't cover for in their so-called health guarantee was problematic too, because they claim things like luxating patellas are common in the breed, so they don't cover them (they are common. They are hereditary. That's why breeders need to be testing for it and not breeding dogs that have it). And the guarantee is only good for a year.

In addition, the Icewind Farms thing is a HUGE red flag. Plus as far as I can see this person isn't active in showing or any other dog sport.

The person seems like a backyard breeder to me. I'd avoid them.

Okay, Hachsa. I'll bite.

There are several things that I would find worrisome about this breeder, and health is the main issue. First and foremost, I don't buy that "none of the parents have any genetic problems" line. If you don't test, and if it's not on record, you don't know. Without so much as any OFA certification (which anyone can verify on the public database at http://www.offa.org), if you don't track all of your puppies and the puppies' puppies, you don't know. And it's easy for her to disregard genetic problems when this is the extent of her health guarantee:

Each puppy comes with a limited Health Guarantee to the original buyer for the first year of the puppy's life. This Guarantee is only for death caused by genetic defects of the heart, liver, kidneys and lungs. They [sic] Buyer's licensed veterinarian must provide the seller with a written certificate stating the exact cause of death as verified by an autopsy. [...] If these regulations are not meet [sic] the Guarantee becomes null and void.

The Seller is not responsible for any veterinarian expenses [...] ALL OUR PUPPIES ARE SOLD AS "COMPANION PETS ONLY." We do not guarantee the color, size, breeding ability or show quality of the Puppy or a change of heart about the purchase or dislike of the puppy. Nor does it cover hypoglycemia, broken bones, patellas, or small open fontanel (common in the toy breeds), undescended testicles, bite, or any condition that is treatable. (emphases mine)

The puppy has to die for them to give a crap about the health of the pup. There are plenty of serious genetic illnesses that do not result in immediate death, and that show up much later in the life of a dog that this contract and their actions do not take into account.

It's nice that they gave you testimonies of other puppy buyers and their vet. I'd be curious if their vet has seen many of their dogs greater than 3 years of age, or even further into adulthood -- 6, 7, 8 years old. A good breeder would have a better idea of the longevity and long-term health not only of her own pets, but those further up and down the line. And frankly, I don't see any of that information being offered. All I see are puppies, puppies, puppies.

Doesn't look very ethical to me.

Looks like a backyard breeder, breeding primarily for profit.

Deifnitely stay away. First red flag I saw just by looking at their site, they have multiple litters all the time. Second red flag is, they don't mention any reason to breed Shibas (other then the hidden profit) like obediance, agility, conformation, etc. And a third red flag I saw, was in the contract. The health garuntee it just wording, and since it's in writing, it's their way of getting around any liability for poorly bred puppies. The fact they have to offer up a defence in court before you even sign a contract is also a turn off.

You have been given some great info and resources to look for reputable breeders. I would also suggest something not many people think about right away, but look for a shiba meetup group in your area, and try to talk to current owners in your area. This was a big help for me, and after I talk to people about my journey for Stell, they always say they with they did the same thing. Talking to current owners helped me make sure the breed was for me, but also gave me a chance to see their Shibas in action and talk to them about where they got their Shibas. Very helpful information, you could possibly even find a rescue in the process.

In any case, don't feel like you have to find a Shiba in a timeline. As it usually works out (and works out for the best) is your pup/Shiba will find you. Defineitly take your time to research Shiba Breeders as much if not more then you researched the breed.

And good luck in your journey!

I'd add what others have said about don't feel bad about no knowing how to evaluate the breeder--none of us know unless we're taught. I thought I knew and still bought a Shiba I shouldn't have bought, and, well, I'm having lots and lots of problems with her.

My godmother was in a similar situation to you with another breed of dog, and I looked at the website which was actually a lot like this one--no health guarantees, no reason to be breeding the dogs, etc. It was even worse because it said that puppies often die before they can complete all their vaccinations, so if the pup died of parvo or something like that before the vaccinations were done the breeder was not liable (!!). I hesitated to tell my Godmother my thoughts at first....she'd spent $300 for a deposit that she wouldn't get back.....but I did tell her, and she decided better to lose the deposit than get an unhealthy dog.

The thing is, you could, of course, get an ok dog from a breeder like this, if you're lucky, so I wouldn't blame someone who decided they couldn't afford to lose the $ and wanted to take a chance....but I would wish them luck, because while it's hard to lose the money up front, it's awful to be dealing with a dog you've come to love who has a myriad of health and/or behaviorial issues that is costing you way more than the lost deposit would have been. Like I said, you could get a healthy dog. I got a timid Shiba who had not been properly socialized around people, and has never outgrown her extreme fear of strangers. She is epileptic, hypothyroid, has a severe luxating patella that she's going to have (expensive) surgery for next month. She's always had behavioral issues: beyond the fearfulness, she has shown serious dog aggression to my other Shiba.

So I'd say weigh things in your mind and decide what is best for you. Getting a dog from a very good ethical breeder does not guarantee no health problems, but it certainly will make dealing with them easier, and it will make it much more likely that you get a healthy, balanced dog. And the big lesson for me has been sometimes you really have to wait to find the right dog.

Thanks guys =/

It feels extremely bitter right now, because I thought heres someone in Florida breeding Shibas. Shes a nurse, she was kind, and I think I was blinded by the idea of new dog. BUT I did become suspicious when she left all her dogs outside. and when I visited her website I did notice the mom was young, but I was told that picture was old. Everything was good up until that point, honestly I was compelled by the idea of my Shiba that I didnt read the contract thoroughly, and I HATED all the rules like you guys stated above, ESPECIALLY since its against Floridas Puppy Lemon Laws. I'm extremely grateful that someone posted a new topic on Icewind, otherwise I wouldnt noticed all of this. I do feel bad for the puppy I was gonna get. I really liked him, very middle of the road, compared to his brothers, one was a leader and the other got picked on. This one just got the toy I would throw. I did put a $100 deposit down. But i think it became money towards a lesson learned. So im ok with that. Also someone pointed out that she breeds Poms, Shibas were the only dogs I saw. And i pretty much saw everything, she said that was before Shibas...

..so I'm not going to go through with it, I've already emailed her.
Its funny how I thought did so much research on the breed. but not on the people that breed them. THANKS for not calling me stupid, I pretty much feel like an idiot already =P

On other note, Ive contacted Rodel Shibas about shipping, if it has to come to that, but I'm totally not happy with doing it. But Ive also asked them about Breeders in Florida, namely that Patricia Gilliard that I mentioned, who if you google, is an AKC conformation judge on Akitas & Shibas. She isnt very responsive on her emails, so I'll definitely ring her up in the phone, shes only so far told me that shell have a litter in late Spring, early Summer.

ONCE AGAIN, THANKS for not letting me fall into deep doodoo. I honestly dont believe that the breeder has BAD intentions, but rather, she likes SHIBAS, she breeds them, but once their out of her hands, shes done with them, much the backyard breeder like you guys stated.

And I'm glad to hear it was only $100 you lost....could have been worse.... I think you're right to go on and look for another breeder. Also, even though it's a pain, either driving a long way (if you're like me and don't like shipping a dog unless you must) is do-able. I drove almost 4000 miles roundtrip to get my akita pup. and hang in there on the not responsive to email thing....Oh, that drove me crazy!

Feel very lucky that you backed out. I was very naive when I was getting my puppy. The breeder that I got him from seemed so legit, showed me pedigree, the whole nine yards. It turned out that I was wrong about her and she breeds irresponsibly. (she's had MANY litters after my Marshall). Would I trade in my Marshall because of it? No. Does he have issues because he wasn't well bred? Yes. Nothing severe (knock on wood), but he doesn't have a good coat or clean markings and it bothers me. So take your time and be patient and the kharma donkey will bring you an awesome pupper.

@ hascha i plan on getting my puppy from rodel too after hearing that the other breeder in ephrata uses electric mats to keep her shibas contained when they were in teh pen, that was the biggest red flag ever and i actually considered going to her at first...But after i heard about electric mats being placed underground fro the shibas to stay inside I was like ooooh no. So now i humbly and patiently wait for my puppy from rodel. I think it helps just staying in contact with the breeder even if your not getting a puppy just yet. I wish you the best of luck though oh and you should also try tengai shibas they are reputable as well :-)

yeah the crazy part is that she told me this when i went to visit her, my mother and i bought a puppy from her before but we never thought she actually used those until she told me....don't get me wrong Nanook is great but this time around i want to make the best decision as possible and if electric mats are being used ill stay away....i despise when people resort to E-anything for containment or behavior for a dog, that just tells me you don't know what your doing and rather not take time out to get the proper training.