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What the experts say about "The Dog Whisperer" (Cesar Millan)
  • tatonkatatonka
    Posts: 1210
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
  • So many of Cesar's "failures" seem to disappear to the "Rehab Center". I wonder what happens to them all? :(

    Here's what Shadow (the Mal/Husky Cesar choked) is like now:
    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/animal-emotions/201204/did-cesar-millan-have-hang-the-husky/comments?page=4

    ETA: I watched the follow up video to the food guarding lab. What interested me was not how he was working with the lab (I had the sound turned off), but the reactions of Junior. What an unhappy animal. I lost track of the appeasement gestures he was making - he was licking his lips almost obsessively, slunk down, curling away, etc... At one point, he even alpha rolls himself. I think that video says so much about so-called dominance training.
    Post edited by orangedoggie at 2012-10-29 04:52:32
  • It is that simple, Cesar is completely wrong...see @orangedoggie's link above...sorry.

    and of course read this thread from beginning....
    Post edited by Koji's mom at 2012-10-29 22:52:06
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
  • jelliesjellies
    Posts: 142
    I also think things are more complex than just Cesar is all wrong or all right.

    For instance recently the BBC had a special on dogs where a brit actor drove and travelled around the world looking at the origins of dogs, how they were bred to companion status, and so on.

    A few things struck me, one from a geneticist that pointed out you can breed a wildly different looking dog with very few generations of selectivity. Like 7. Not 100s or 1000s. Dogs are VERY close genetically to wolves far closer than their remarkable change in looks (which are easily tweaked) might otherwise indicate. The position of the program was that just because a dog looks miles away from a wolf doesn't mean they don't come pre-programmed still with a lot of the same things at a base level.

    Second thing was he visited some feral guy who adopted a motherless wolf litter and brought them up lived "as a wolf" with them for 18 months. His role in the pack he defines as the referee/moderator in fights. He gets right into a squabble and calms things down. There was an alpha wolf, and a beta wolf, then the rest. The alpha is the leader and can be quite brutal to challenges to his authority. Alpha decides largely what the pack is going to do. He said his wolves probably don't see him as a human at all, but another (slightly odd) wolf.

    Anyway he points out almost as an aside that when people pick a pup from a litter they usually pick the boldest one, the one least afraid. He says what they are doing is unconsciously picking the Alpha. I can see Cesar straining at the leash to explain what this might mean down the line.

    So the program, at least this one episode of it, was interesting. I'm not sure it is so easy to either dismiss the hierarchical nature of wolf groups or to dismiss the ideas of how wolves behave with each other teaches us nothing about how dogs behave towards each other, or their family.

    Whether any of this says anything about Cesar I've no opinion on. I'm happy with reward based training and happy I don't have to watch the dog whisperer because I can't get anything else to work.
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3664
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4786
  • jelliesjellies
    Posts: 142
    fair enough!
    I found the name of the documentary it is this one
    http://www.smithsonianchannel.com/site/sn/show.do?episode=136066

    youtube:
    Post edited by jellies at 2012-10-31 04:18:13
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3664
  • TO be clear I was responding to the girl "training her grandparents dog by choking and dominating" and what I thought was someone saying it's "more complex" than CM is all bad.

    Dog behaviour is very complex, but for vast majority of low information dog owners/public, watching CM gives them license to get physical with their dogs and "dominate" them...

    Most viewers are not animal behaviourists able to parse out the complexities...So I feel comfortable generalizing that he's bad for dogs...

  • jelliesjellies
    Posts: 142
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    Post edited by Saya at 2012-11-08 12:55:39
  • RikkaRikka
    Posts: 1501
    Post edited by Rikka at 2012-12-26 17:43:26
  • GatsuGatsu
    Posts: 651
    Well Cesar Millan is coming to my city, I'm tempted to go see him.
  • MayamaMayama
    Posts: 270
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
  • NekopanNekopan
    Posts: 403
    I've never visited r/Shiba, but I do frequent r/dogtraining where they (usually) give great advice. They stress positive training, and discount the dominance theory. So, I guess your mileage may vary when it comes to Reddit. I'm looking forward to the day when positive training is accepted over dominant methods by the average person. I think we're getting there.
  • lucylulucylu
    Posts: 500
    There was just a sesame shiba on his show. Of corse I turned it on right at the end.
  • RikkaRikka
    Posts: 1501
    Post edited by Rikka at 2012-12-28 14:08:33
  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 3495
    @Mayama, I know how you feel! Friends/family thought I went crazy when I told them I started Bootz/Jackie on a raw diet.

    I was at the dog park yesterday and somebody was "Cesar Millan"-ing their dog. It was a little girl too! No more than 12 years of age. Its so sad watching people be so rough with their dogs, especially at the dog park.
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    Post edited by Saya at 2012-12-28 14:39:40
  • RikkaRikka
    Posts: 1501
  • sandrat888sandrat888
    Posts: 576
  • That picture says it all doesn't it? I wonder if that's the yellow lab that got him real good.
  • teddyjamesteddyjames
    Posts: 124
    I read two of his books. Not to learn aversive techniques, but I think I'm gonna go gouge my eyes out anyway. Lots of hate for this guy haha
  • DebDeb
    Posts: 286
    I bought one of CM's books a couple years ago (used from Amazon) just to read it first hand and see what the scoop with this guy is and what he's pushing. I read it. I found it to be useless garbage. I pitched it in the trash.
  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 8589
  • teddyjamesteddyjames
    Posts: 124
    @sunyata I did! I never agreed with any of the alpha roll or leash jerks etc. I would NEVER try to physically harm or overpower an animal (unless its pretty much life or death). But thanks for the eye opener everyone. It sounding like hes wrong prettyyyyy much every time words come out of his mouth
  • teddyjamesteddyjames
    Posts: 124
    May be off topic a bit at this point but just purchased Before And After Getting your Puppy by Ian Dunbar on google books. We'll see what I learn :)
  • Koji's momKoji's mom
    Posts: 632
    @Teddyjames - That is an excellent book! I used it along with classes as guide to raise Koji and it took patience, but he has zero guarding, no biting and loves babies :)

    A note: Dr. Dunbars advice is excellent - but his tone at times is a bit alarming - like if you don't do EXACTLY as he says it's immediate doooooom...and I admit it made me quite anxious sometimes..I know he does that because so many people ruin their dogs and the dogs end up in shelters and dead so it it important...Just an observation...

    I'd follow the book but remember the fun parts too!
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
  • teddyjamesteddyjames
    Posts: 124
    @Koji's mom So far it is great! I'm halfway done with it already, and scared to death since page one haha. I"m gonna search the forum and create a discussion in training (hopefully that would be the right place) to address my major concerns! Don't want to pull this thread further off topic.
  • curlytailscurlytails
    Posts: 2779
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    @curlytails, this is a good thread to vent in ... so sorry to hear your vent though as that dog is being set up for failure and rescue/shelters in the near future. :(
  • RikkaRikka
    Posts: 1501
  • MayamaMayama
    Posts: 270
    Post edited by Mayama at 2013-04-20 21:10:46
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    Post edited by Saya at 2013-05-09 19:38:08
  • orangedoggieorangedoggie
    Posts: 395
    I would kick that guy in the nuts if he did that to my dog. And all those grinning idiots in the background just going along with it need a slap to the face.
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4786
  • Kobe1468Kobe1468
    Posts: 1590
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
  • curlytailscurlytails
    Posts: 2779
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
  • Kobe1468Kobe1468
    Posts: 1590

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