For all new members, please check out the thread New to the Forum? What to do and forum guidelines.
What the experts say about "The Dog Whisperer" (Cesar Millan)
  • MayamaMayama
    Posts: 270
    I didn't really know CM before getting Maya. While I was preparing for her arrival, I started to watch a bunch of different dog training programs on TV. After watching my first "Dog Whisperer", I was impressed by how efficiently he handled the situation. However it also got me confused, cause apparently it was working due to his kick on the dog's butt, which he didn't even mentioned or explained how or why. There's no way I'm going to kick my puppy without knowing more.

    Then I watched an episode of "It's Me or the Dog", and was totally convinced this is the right way to go. It just seems much easier, less harmful, and so fun. If anything could go wrong, I'll probably just end up with a fat puppy, no big deal. Till this day, as I learned more about training, I'm glad I made the right decision back then.
    Shiba Inu Maya's blog and FB page
  • sandrat888sandrat888
    Posts: 576
    Bumping this thread for new members.
  • orangedoggieorangedoggie
    Posts: 395
    Does anyone remember the "red zone" Jindo that he worked with? That dog ended up being passed around from rescue to rescue. He disappeared and I hope he found a home. So much for choking him into being "calm and submissive". The only Shiba I remember seeing was one that barked too much. I wonder if he doesn't take on primitive breeds anymore because they don't respond well to his dominance methods. Good luck flooding a Shiba or rolling it.
    Post edited by orangedoggie at 2012-05-24 12:54:33
  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 3495
    @Orangedoggie, the shiba that CM failed to train, he ended up taking into his own "pack" and gave the family one of his own dogs.
  • shibamistressshibamistress
    Posts: 5171
    The Jindo was euthanized eventually I believe. We talked about it on the NK side. There's also the horrible, horrible video of him choking the malemute, which is also being discussed on the NK side.
  • orangedoggieorangedoggie
    Posts: 395
    Ugh, now I'm sad for the Jindo.
    There's a Mal he choked too? I knew about a Siberian. Oh, who am I kidding - he chokes most dogs.
  • shibamistressshibamistress
    Posts: 5171
    The mal may be the same as the Siberian. I thought it was a husky, but I seem to get the husky and mal confused, and someone on the NK side identified it as a Mal, and since she has one, I figured she was right! But I don't know...for some reason I have a mental block on those two and ALWAYS confuse them.
  • orangedoggieorangedoggie
    Posts: 395
    Well, I think we're talking about the same dog "Shadow". He really looks like a wolf hybrid to me, but I don't know what they said he was on that episode.

    Oh, and the difference between Mals and Sibes is mostly size. Mals have bigger bone and were used to haul heavy freight. Sibes were built for speed. Blue eyes on a Mal is a fault.
    Post edited by orangedoggie at 2012-05-24 21:15:38
  • shibamistressshibamistress
    Posts: 5171
    to continue the mal/sibe hijack for a minute, I really should know the difference. I grew up in Alaska, so absolutely know the difference in types of sled dogs, etc. but I think that may be part of the problem: in AK most sled dogs are mixes and we tend to call everything a "husky mix" plus there is the mackenzie river huskies that look more like mals and are freight dogs...so yeah....I get confused! Someone on the NK side said Shadow as a wolf hybrid too, but he didn't look like one to me (maybe low percentage?). My mom has hybrids. But if he was, even more reason for not doing that!
  • orangedoggieorangedoggie
    Posts: 395
    That episode is just so egregious to me. He sets the dog/wolf up for failure and then picks a fight with him so he can dominate the dog. When the dog can't find an out, he fights for his life and gets strangled until he's "calm and submissive". The owners should be ashamed of themselves for letting that "expert" do that to their dog.
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    To me Shadow looks like a husky or mal mix or something, but if he's a wolf dog he's a low or no content wolf dog the owner could got him from a breeder who said he was a mid content or high so lied to owner.. I see many people stud or sell wolf dogs that look like pure husky pups.

    I'm not expert on wolf dogs myself. I have met a mid content and a high content. The high was a pup, but I could tell he was more wolf in him then the mid content.

    Anyways the shadow episode not my favorite.

    There was three shiba episodes one where he brought shiba I think it might been a shiba mix either way to his pack and gave owner another dog.

    Other one the owners had issue with door bolting, running away and getting on top of their furniture like a cat.. Umm Saya likes to get on the back of the couch too! She was taught to not door bolt too! He put a GPS collar to solve the running away issue. A dog that runs off it's good idea anyways.

    Third one was a shiba in apartment they gootten a corgi puppy and the shiba was jealous of the other dog playing with the corgi puppy or maybe the issue was something else I forgot.

    Been long time since I watched Cesar Millan.

    I'm not fan of his methods my dad is bit too heavy handed with Bella and she is nervous wreck and can't calm down when guests come over. Not nervous way she is just too excited with guests being here..

    His solution is keep her on leash and hold her close.. Mine I have her on leash near the guest if she gets too much I leave room with her if she behaves doesn't jump then we stay and she gets a treat and attention from guest. She learning slowly. More she sees the person more she gets better.
    Photobucket
    Nicole, 5year old Bella(Boxer), and 4year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • shibamistressshibamistress
    Posts: 5171
    That's another thing I can't believe: that someone would say "ok, take my dog and give me another one!" WTF!? And I wonder how long he keeps the dogs in his pack? What happens to them? Etc.
  • Sarah_Jay12Sarah_Jay12
    Posts: 316
    Thank you, @sandrat888 for bumping this. I have just spent the past hour or so reading all of this and checking out all of the links that have been posted as well.

    Growing up, my family never had a dog, and the only dogs I've ever spent time with was my best friends' family dogs (growing up), and then her Husky (as of 2 years ago). Since they were never my dogs, I never really felt the need to *learn* about dogs - I just loved the heck outta them when I came over. But I was still timid around other dogs I was not as familiar with.

    When David and I began researching dog breeds and started looking into getting a dog, I admit, I was fearful. Fearful of an uncontrollable older dog, but also fearful of not being a good enough owner to whatever dog we had decided to go with.

    We started watching CMs show on a whim, and at first, we were very into it. But as we both started doing more and more research on dog training and training-type lessons to do once our puppy got here, we started realizing that, realistically, this is not the way to go. I would never use any of CM's aversive training methods on Maggie, and the thought of another trainer doing the same thing to her breaks my heart.

    With that being said though, some aspects of CM's show has really aided my lack of basic dog knowledge on behavior and training. For example, maintaining good energy around your dog. Someone mentioned that it was common sense - but honestly, I would have seriously never thought about that. Perhaps it has something to do with my age and "lack of worldly responsibility that [I've] been exposed to" - as someone so eloquently put it - but simple things as waiting to give food until your dog has calmed down or to give them a chew toy instead of they are chewing furniture would never have occured to me.

    It's possible that I attribute that little bit of knowledge to CM because his show was the first thing related to dog "training" that we started with, but I also believe there comes a point where you just have to go with your gut as far as his tactics are concerned. Does his methods LOOK like they're helping the dog - or making the dog more fearful? Aside from the basics, I am sort of appalled with the way CM treats the dogs he "rehabilitates." And yes, absolutely it takes WAY more than 5 minutes to work with a dog that has issues with obsessions. Training is not easy, and it takes time - as I'm finding out.

    Perhaps the reason why so many people are on the Dog Whisperer fanboat is because they do not understand the effort it takes to safely and correctly "rehabilitate" a dog. Perhaps these people really do just expect a dog to sit down and listen to them - no matter the cost.

    There's been so much to read that I can't reference the user (or blogger) that mentioned this, but I absolutely agree that just because a dog listens to you, does not mean they like you. I would much rather have Maggie love me, bark a little bit, and be herself than to have her fearful of me and not make a single noise.
  • shibamistressshibamistress
    Posts: 5171
    Good points, Sarah_Jay. It is true that some things he does do right--like being calm, etc, are not original to him, but perhaps people who don't know much about training think they are, so they think this is new stuff. It's not. Even his aversive methods are not new--they are just the bad old type of dog training repackaged for a TV audience.

    Also a good point on the "watch the dog" and see if it looks like it is helping. I think a huge problem is that a lot of people don't know how to watch their dogs, or how to interpret what they're seeing. Even people who should. I see this in my husband, who lives with four dogs, but simply can't interpret their signals, and doesn't see when one is anxious, another is resource guarding but hasn't yet made an overt signal like a growl, etc. To be fair to my husband, he can't read people either, but I think a lot of people either are not paying attention to their dogs or are not experienced enough in dog gestures and signs to understand what they are seeing.

    And to me, that is one of (many) unforgiveable things about CM: he teaches people to read dogs incorrectly, saying a dog is calm when it is terrified, etc. We don't need MORE people who aren't able to read the clear signs their dogs are sending....
  • Sarah_Jay12Sarah_Jay12
    Posts: 316
    I totally agree, @Shibamistress. And that's definitely what I'm thinking - maybe people who don't know how to properly engage their dog (i.e. chew toys instead of furniture, exercise to replace boredom) or how to properly interpret their movements, eye rolls, facial expressions, lip raises, etc see CM as an easy fix.

    "OH wow, my dog is trying to be dominant over me, so this quick fix of a choke chain will solve everything." That's not really how it works, is it?
  • WillWill
    Posts: 35
    I must admit I'm kind of on the fence about CM. on the one hand a lot of the comments and quotes ring true, but on the other hand the guy has near 40 dogs so he must be doing something right or it'd be chaos!

    I think his methods of exposure therapy for dogs fearful of shiny floors etc is worth noting, but I'm not sure how he would manage with my Kuma, whose only crime is being incredibly skittish!

    On that note, as an inexperienced dog owner (luckily my partner is not) can anyone recommend any reading or web articles on dog communications?
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    http://www.shibamac.com/reviews/book-review-canine-body-language/

    One my favorite shiba blogs has this book might be worth getting.. The wolf park in battle ground has some books on dog behavior and videos too..

    They also did their own book on wolf behavior though dogs aren't exactly wolves, but I like looking at the book when I visit.

    I'm not fan of CM way I work with my dog is just fine I don't feel need to follow it.
    Photobucket
    Nicole, 5year old Bella(Boxer), and 4year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • orangedoggieorangedoggie
    Posts: 395
    I have this book. It's pretty interesting. I just wish the pictures were better. Many of them are fuzzy and they are all black and whites so sometimes it's not easy to see what the author is pointing out.
    It didn't tell me much that I didn't already know. My dog is not aggressive unless his space is barged into so I've learned the signs of "rude dog" and don't let them get near him unless I can't help it. Dogs that approach him correctly are invited into his space. Unfortunately, those dogs are pretty rare here.
  • sandrat888sandrat888
    Posts: 576
    I would recommend

    "The Language of Dogs" DVD by Sarah Kalnajs
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000P28RXU/englishtalk06-20

    It not only gives you a visual, but also the context. Very informative and useful to anyone who works with dogs.

    "Calming Signals: What Your Dog Tells You" DVD by Turid Rugaas is another popular one. The author also has a book on the same subject, but the DVD is great because of the visuals.
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000PGTF32/englishtalk06-20

    Both are good resources to have, but I personally prefer "The Language of Dogs".
  • curlytailscurlytails
    Posts: 2779
    @Will, feel free to browse through the relatively new Books category for some suggestions. I'm also going to start a new topic specifically for your question, because I'd also like a list of dog communication/canine body language books for my own reference!
    image
    Bowdu 寶肚 (Shiba) and Bowpi 寶媲 (Basenji) with M.C.
  • WillWill
    Posts: 35
    Thanks for the resources all :-)

    I'll have a look at your thread Curlytails
  • DianaBostonDianaBoston
    Posts: 254
    @orangedoggie -- what you say about primitive dogs not responding to aversive methods...... I got a very very good example of this last night. I took my girl out for her last little walk before bed. As we were walking down the street, I bent down to take a leaf off her back and accidentally stepped on her toe (I actually just barely grazed it). Well, being the drama queen she is, she perceived a HUGE hurt and had a literally 1-second fit of rage where she snarled and showed her teeth. Then, in 1 second, she was all happy again after I apologized profusely. Most other breeds would probably yelp and act scared if you accidentally stepped on a toe... So, I second what you say about good luck doing an alpha roll or a scruff grab on a Shiba!
  • shibamistressshibamistress
    Posts: 5171
    I hear you Diana! It made my male Shiba nuts, and he would have been a horrible monster if I'd continued with that.

    Another aspect of the "primitive" breeds going the other way: my Kai ken puppy was at the vet yesterday for puppy vacs and they wanted to look in his ears, which is usually an easy procedure, but he freaked and it took two vet techs to hold him. (He's only 15 pounds, too!). So since then, he has gone nuts every time me or my husband picks him up to take him outside. He got so scared by the restraint that now he won't even tolerate us doing it. He's already getting better with me--I spent awhile last night feeding him dinner bit by bit while holding him, and I've been telling him "easy, easy" in a soft voice--but think how a dog that has that kind of response could be utterly ruined by the harsh methods of CM etc. And there are people that do this kind of stuff on their Kai Ken. :(
  • orangedoggieorangedoggie
    Posts: 395
    My dog had an emergency surgery a few weeks ago and one of the meds was "chewable" Baytril. He.did.not.like.it.
    Twice a day mealtimes turned into a war zone, with me trying to find new ways to disguise it inside food, watching him expertly remove the pill from the food, chopping it into quarters and hiding it in tripe balls, him removing the pills again, and me giving up and forcing him to swallow it. My husband had to hold him so I could work his mouth open enough to get the pill in. It usually took 5 tries even though I put the pill waaaaaay back. One day he growled, and my husband went to scruff him. My dog went from grumpy to scared immediately (we just don't rough handle him ever) and I told my husband to stop!
    I mean there are growls and growls and it wasn't a "ima gonna bite you growl." He was just being grumpy. Scuffing him was just going to make it so much worse. And he took his pill and never growled again even though we still had a few days left. I'm sure if we had used punishment, he would have gotten much, much worse.
  • AnnaAnna
    Posts: 621
    Hammond doesn't mind scruffing, but I rarely do it as a corrective measure. Normally only when he's getting too rough with the cat, or is super wound up and is biting me too hard during play and will not stop, and even then it's more of a calm "I'm holding you still until you calm down" than an aggressive measure.

    But it doesn't upset/scare him, because I do it CONSTANTLY as part of rough-housing play. I'll grab the back of his neck scruff really quick, or grab and shake him a little, or grab the sides of his head and make him do a goofy smile. He loves it and yodels and gnaws on my hands and licks my face, haha. I also grab his ears, teeth, tongue, lips, legs, and paws the same way, so he's been getting better at all those types of handling because it's almost always involved with fun time.
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4786
    bump!
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3664
    An article that was posted on Facebook, it's an account of one person's experience with CM:
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/20444826822?view=doc&id=10150311356541823



    My Journey Beyond Whispering By Ligia Morris


    I can't remember precisely which year, but on or around 2003, 2004 - I started watching the "Dog Whisperer" show on Nat Geo. I'm not a professional dog trainer, yet it's always been something I was interested in. I earned a living in the film, TV and entertainment industry as a costume designer and lived in Los Angeles, California, at the time.

    What got me interested in the show:

    1- It's name - which was taken from "horse whisperer" Buck Brannaman - whom I had known and read about..

    2- the title "dog psychologist" - who could ever imagine that the Nat Geo channel would put a show on the air with a "psychologist" that isn't?

    3- The 5min. "quick fixes" and results shown.

    4- The Nat Geo brand association.

    5- His "saving" pit bulls from death row.



    I'm going to back track a little, just to throw some perspective of where I was coming from. I had moved to LA from NYC, there I had 2 Daschunds that I brought with me to LA. In NY, I had trouble potty training my older female - so, I got my first dog training book "Dog Friendly Dog Training" by Andrea Arden. In order to understand how to apply what was written in the book, I hired a trainer from the humane society, recommend in the book. So that was my approach to dog/animal training. I'd see or read something interesting and if I had the opportunity or the money, I'd hire them. Besides, back then there weren't so many youtube vids for us to see trainers applying their techniques.



    I moved from a kitchenette type apartment in NYC's East Village to a nice house in LA with a nice back yard and behind the back yard a huge park-like lot called the "The Red Line Trestle Footings". The perfect place to have the dog breed of my dreams: Fila Brasileiro - I did a lot of researching online for a good breeder [that is an whole subject of its own], got a lemon from a highly recommended breeder. That first Fila died at about 1 y/o from an "immune mediated disorder"; it brought me to tears. Although, later, I realized how fortunate I was, because the dog was highly reactive and would bite me if I approached when he was barking at the gate. That is not part of the traits of the Fila. However, I had hired a dog trainer to guide me on how to deal with that dog and used some reward training, but also recommended a prong collar. She had been to several Ian Dunbar seminars.



    After "Biggie's" death, I was very sad.. My husband bought me another Fila as a gift. This time we got a "show" quality Fila Brasileiro. A note of caution: "pet quality" for some breeders, is code for "vet quality". At this point, the "dog whisperer" show had debuted on Nat Geo and I saw an opportunity to call his "psychology center" for a consultation.



    My gorgeous dog Cherokee was around 5 to 6 months when he met Cesar. My Daschunds were probably 3 and 2, respectively. They got along pretty well. He walked in with me and one could definitely sense he had an effect on the dogs. I concede he does have "something" about him that effects the dogs. However, he immediately pointed out to me that I should be dominant over them, that my dog Cherokee was competing with my other little Daschunds for supremacy. Plus, he showed me how to walk my Fila pup - all this with a lot of tsssts - leash jerking, claw hands on neck and body. I look back at it now and think of how intimidated my little dogs were of all that and how my 6 month old Fila shut down. CM, told me that my FB dog could not wrinkle his nose to the little dog, which he said I wasn't aware of because I didn't understand dog body language. I tried to tell him how things were friendly and easy going at the house and that all I wanted were some pointers if there were something to happen out of the ordinary. He was not hearing any of it and basically said the FB was not a breed for me, I would only be able to handle him if I had an Alpha personality, which I didn't, in his opinion..



    After that visit, I started convincing myself that everything I had done till then was totally wrong and I was a major wuss. The stuff he showed me looked like it had immediate result, that day at my house. But, I didn't know I'd be gifted with the long term side effects that would present themselves later [the gift that keeps on giving]. Cherokee and Tex (Daschund) were friendly with other dogs before that day. But, after my consultation and my newly developed leash skills - a radical departure from what I had learned from more positive trainers till then, they became increasingly unfriendlier and reactive to other dogs. To the point where I could no longer take them to the park and I had to walk them only late at night, or very early in the morning. Every meal from then on, was tense, because they all had to eat together and I had to stand over them.. I'd become an uber control-freak about discipline. I became a defender of CM and I recommended him to friends! Even fellow Fila Brasileiro enthusiasts did not approve of his methods. Curiously and specially the folks that dealt with Filas in rescue and ACO friends.



    The positive part is that I did take my dogs out for walks every day and they got exercise. Can't say the same about canine social skills.



    On one of my trips overseas, I called the "psychology center" to board my dog there for 15 days. Because of his breed, it was nearly impossible to board him anywhere else. He was accepted there. It was more like a boot camp. Several pit bulls and pit mixes, and human monitors ready to tssst at any movement that remotely resembled interaction between dogs. Little dogs were kept together and they all slept in the same cushion in a room. Big dogs were made to stay together, as well as eat together. and many had shock collars on, at the time I really didn't know what they were.. . Cesar explained how things were done there, I took photos of my dog as a souvenir of my celeb experience, said goodbye and was off to my trip - entirely relaxed and sure things would work out fine.



    When I picked up my dog from the psychology center, I noticed he was injured on the eye lid, and I questioned the monitor what that was about. I didn't get a straight answer because the person had not been there earlier and didn't see anything. Also, my dog had an electric collar on. I got home and waited to talk to the person that was his manager at the time. I was told is that my dog was a fighter - that is part of the breed characteristics [total nonsense] and I signed a waiver, there was nothing to be done..



    Well, that episode opened my eyes quite a bit. After that stay, Cherokee's behavior became very bizarre when I left the house. He would follow me. Nothing could contain him. He would act very distraught if I left him. On the other hand, I started getting involved in volunteer training for Search and Rescue with him. I had become much interested in the work dog world, including taking my Daschunds for earth-dog trials. I learned so very much of reward training with the officers from the Sherrif's office and the earth-dog people. That's when I began to realize the effect os aversion and coercion in training. My fila had been damaged by those methods and developed an anxiety disorder. He had developed noise/storm phobia associated to separation anxiety, which he had never presented before those 10 days he was "whispered to"..



    He became too big of a dog to follow through with the S&R, so then I took some herding instruction with him. He did well in that also. I learned he wasn't a full blooded Fila, that he had some mastiff in him - that's a whole other issue, though.. However, he learned to be a very well socialized dog, thanks to the herding and S&R, he does get along with other dogs pretty well too, well part of that might be from the shock collar training I suspect; but he paid a high price. I've been able to manage his anxiety disorders, only through positive techniques, relaxation protocols, bands and DAP. But, it's not going away as can be seen in th video. The long term effects of CM's influence [including his use of an electric collar] on my dog have been devastating to him.



    Cesar Milan has a television show. I am a professional that is involved in the entertainment Industry - The show's producers have a script to follow, and they must keep those sponsors. They heavily edit the footage to make long processes and mistakes look instant and to cover up some of the even harsher techniques he uses.

    Also, other things one can't even imagine, which I know that happened at a herding instructors facility, but are protected by confidentiality agreements and other waivers. Cesar is self-taught and he doesn’t even appear to understand why what he does works [or their long their term effects, for that matter]. There are professionals out there who really do understand the whys and hows of dog behavior and their consensus is that Cesar’s explanations are mostly nonsense. Bottom line is: Cesar is training for television entertainments, he uses difficult techniques with hocus-pocus explanations and that, in spite of his macho prowess, he frequently gets hurt!.



    The reward that has come from my experience with CM is that I have learned to be an ok trainer myself, and have learned about Quandrants, operant conditioning and positive reinforcement, scent articles, stock-dog and livestock handling, evolution of dogs, wolf behavior, etc.. I have met many different trainers and learned incredibly efficient methods that require everything but force and are a lot of fun and partnership for me and the dogs!. Today, my dogs live with me in Brazil, on a farm. I have 3 more pure-bred Filas which I am attempting to teach snake detection, but all of them work with stock, in fact one of them got a 3rd place in a USBCHA event against 10 border collies, 2 rotties and 2 GSD's. I consider myself a cross-over hobby trainer, I use clicker, herding techniques, search and rescue techniques, SATS. I read a lot, and research as much as I can. I hope that from my recount, I can steer people toward a different direction, specially one that might spare their dogs.



    *(copy and paste this to post on webitesCreative Commons License
    This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 3.0 Unported License.
    image
  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 8584
    Thanks for posting, Beth. That is a really wonderfully written article that will hopefully help people understand WHY aversive methods are so detrimental, especially with sensitive breeds like the Shiba.
    Bella 2Mountains 2Nola 2
    Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia.
    I Wander, I Ride
  • LosechLosech
    Posts: 2516
    Response to someone asking why another does not like Ceasar Millan. Some errors here and there, but I like the links.

    http://hopefulveterinarian.tumblr.com/post/25902588496/queer-io-asked-i-know-its-not-really-my-place-to-ask
    Post edited by Losech at 2012-07-11 08:43:19
  • RyuDragonRyuDragon
    Posts: 319
    http://www.sfgate.com/magazine/article/The-Anti-Cesar-Millan-Ian-Dunbar-s-been-2550043.php#page-1

    Interesting article I found discussing Ian Dunbar vs. Cesar Milan
  • Bumping this thread since we've been having an interesting conversation about this clip on the NK side (thanks to everyone who posted this stuff over there!). This is the original (horrible!) clip of Millan doing everything wrong with a resource guarding dog:



    if it doesn't embed, here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=9ihXq_WwiWM#! I'll try and come back and fix it later, but am on my way to my dog class!

    From the beginning, he is going about this in a way that is not only wrong, but I think pretty abusive.

    Here are some responses from very good dog people to this video:

    Nicole Wilde: http://wildewmn.wordpress.com/2012/09/16/pushed-too-far/

    And a particularly good response by a trainer who does, indeed, deal with real aggressive dogs (his whole blog is great, and thanks to Jessica on the NK side for linking his blog): http://canineaggression.blogspot.com/2012/09/food-aggression-and-famous-trainer.html

    Lots of good tips in both those blogs for what to look for in dog behavior.
    Post edited by Calia at 2012-09-22 19:19:22
  • Interesting interview with Cesar Milan

    Post edited by notoriousscrat at 2012-10-24 17:00:33
  • Interesting interview and very pointed questions. humm...Weak justifications and examples on CMs part though.....would have given him some slack if he admittedly indicated that he continues to learn. Man it seems like he has a non flexible view when the data is clearly out there. Just read it man.....which makes me questions his literacy skills.

    Such is life.....you get what you get with him.
    Snf
  • What a great interview--that guy really put him on the spot. But it's annoying how he simply does not answer the questions, and avoids answering the issues the interviewer brings up. And this interviewer is great--he brings up every issue--the aggressive and aversive methods CM uses, the fact that CM's methods are not acceptable, and the fact that dogs don't form pack and thus the dominance mode is not useful.

    I also thought it was interesting that CM himself told us about his dubious credentials as a "dog psychologist" in that he was a dog walker. Then became a "dog psychologist" with, apparently no training whatsoever.

    (And it was also annoying the way he refers to Mexico as some sort of pastoral place where dogs live off leash and there are no pet shops. What about Mexico city? )
  • McYogiMcYogi
    Posts: 518
    @shibamistress
    Heading straight to the NK side to see the discussion on that clip. It's a shame the convo didn't get started up over here, because there is a LOT to talk about with that lab clip. The fact that he "didn't see that coming" is just a testament to how poorly he was reading that dog! Even after 5 minutes of stare-down after the bite, the dog was still a loaded cannon... this dog needed a totally different approach!If you back me into a corner after stealing my food and hitting me in the head and I'd bite the shit out of him too!

    Is there a way to watch whole episodes? I don't want to support his show, but I do want to see how that particular episode ends.
    image

  • kayla4554kayla4554
    Posts: 169
    Has anyone ever been on that show with a Shiba? That would be interesting...

    kayla and maya <3
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3664
    @McYogi - So far I haven't found a way to view full episodes online without some sort of description, but at the end of the lab episode, CM does take Holly back to his facility for more "training". There's actually a video he had released before the episode aired, that occurs after he acquires Holly. He used Holly to how to deal with food aggression using a step stool, poor girl was amazingly forgiving after what he put her through.
    image
  • RyuDragonRyuDragon
    Posts: 319
    I haven't seen it myself but I have heard people talk about at least one that was on the show. I think it had door bolting issues.
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    There was one pure shiba then another episode had a shiba mixed that was rescued the dog was tied on a chain by a dog house.

    The shiba mix had a very bad resource guarding issue Cesar took him to his rehab center and gave them another dog.

    The shiba door bolting episode was funny the owners didn't seem to like the dog being on the back of the couch that is so a shiba breed thing.. lol

    Oh yeah there was another episode where a shiba inu was jealous of other dogs playing with the owner's corgi? I forgot it haven't seen in long time.
    Photobucket
    Nicole, 5year old Bella(Boxer), and 4year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • Yeah, for the Shiba on the back of the sofa thing, it's one light CM moment for me and my friend.....because when the Shiba got on the back of the sofa, CM said "Is this allowed?" So now we say that all the time for any Shiba behavior "Is that allowed?" and laugh. Because it's a Shiba thing! (or Kai Ken thing, and once, Oskar the Akita tried it. The sofa started to fall over!)
  • tatonkatatonka
    Posts: 1210
    @shibamistress when you said back of the sofa I initially thought you meant behind the couch and completely out of petting reach. Tatonka is very consistent about staying JUST out of reach of anyone, while still staring them down. I'm able to pet him sometimes because he'll come up and let me - "Ok, sad little human pet. Give me a good head rub so you don't look so depressed all the time.."

    Regarding Cesar, I think a lot of things he says about dogs reflecting your attitude, mood, and outlook is true - and being calm and confident can go a long way in helping a human interact more positively with a dog.

    However I see a lot of hit and miss in his interactions with dogs. He's also lazy and falls back on aversive methods. It's very tempting of course because aversive methods (even when totally misused) seem to show almost immediate results. But you also get a large number of undesirable side effects as well as gross inconsistencies in the training itself. I'm sure plenty of people will disagree.

    I've seen with Tatonka that aversive anything does not work with him. He's stubborn, smart, and patient. Every time he's in a timeout I actually have to go get him (pick him up) after the timeout is over because he'll just sit and stare in the same exact position I leave him. He's not a dog who's made for leash corrections or physical adversity - but he's extremely responsive in training without the use of treats, excessive praise, or any other real motivator.

    It's tempting to use Cesar's methods sometimes. Tatonka can blow me off completely and then make it obvious he knows what he's doing. But then I realize that Tatonka's development is really important, and getting lazy like Cesar isn't really a solution.

    And there aren't any quick solutions.
    Monkey!
    Post edited by tatonka at 2012-10-25 23:24:54
  • curlytailscurlytails
    Posts: 2779
    Saw this picture in a Daily Mail writeup about the Titchmarsh interview:

    image

    Granted, maybe the dog just has natural brow wrinkles, but I'm just amused that this snapshot of the dog's body language and facial expression basically summarizes everything that *I* think about Millan's questionable credentials, methods, and justifications.

    Millan himself appeared quite nervous as the interview continued. What's appalling to me is that this can't be the first time he's heard these critiques, he's just never really had to address them on a live show -- though he's probably irate with his publicist right now for not pre-vetting the interview questions! Yet the best he could come up with were these weak, disappointing responses. Because he's got nothin' in the face of studied, professional expertise. The parrot anecdote? The cat vs. Rottweiler anecdote? Probably got some approving chuckles out of other, less critical audiences, but this interviewer saw right through his stage act...
    image
    Bowdu 寶肚 (Shiba) and Bowpi 寶媲 (Basenji) with M.C.
    Post edited by curlytails at 2012-10-26 00:01:49
  • Yeah, the parrot anecdote was bizarre. Granted, parrots are scary--my friend has three, and the African grey in particular....watch out! But it was a stupid example, because every single one of my dogs would have gone for that bird in a minute! (I know--I've seen them do it!)

    That said, I have seen other dogs cower a bit when Ruby the parrot yells "NO! Go Outside!" (Which is Ruby's own invention--my friend says "ah ah ah" to the dogs more than "no" and she's never yelled at them to go outside ) But Ruby also has been known to yell "Don't. Bite. Me." which does sound punctuated like that. It really means, come over here and let me bite you! And in nicer moods she says "would you dogs like to go outside?" which is much reflective of what my friend says!

    And that's a great pic that pretty much sums it up!
    Post edited by shibamistress at 2012-10-26 00:41:48
  • JuniJuni
    Posts: 1269
    But wasn't the cat example something he came up with after questions about dogs living in family groups? He obviously couldn't think of a good example of dogs 'disciplining' each other. I also thought it was silly the way he described Mexico as a happy, peaceful place where dogs and people live in harmony.
  • ArcticArctic
    Posts: 513
    Dogs do live off-leash in Mexico! Because they're in the streets. As strays. It's actually very depressing to see.
  • Arctic, I thought that too, though of course, there are plenty of middle class dogs, too, that live lives very similar to what we have here. You know, like with leashes and stuff that their people probably bought at dog boutiques. It annoyed me the way he was hearkening back to some sort of rural paradise that probably never existed, but that kind of thing always annoys me!
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    Yeah I found it odd he said that because most likely the dogs are strays or dogs who are allowed to roam, but mostly are strays I'm sure.

    I remember he did a episode where he went down to Mexico to help with some loose dogs..
    Photobucket
    Nicole, 5year old Bella(Boxer), and 4year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • ArcticArctic
    Posts: 513
    I have over a dozen relatives in Mexico. Many own dogs that are pampered just like our pups in the US. But there are also at on of stray dogs (which is a horrible thing to see), and I would say that overall, even my family's dogs that live a normal middle-class lifestyle of walks, being taken to the groomer, etc. aren't quite on the level of the US. the "dog" culture isn't as permeating or as developed, from my family's personal experience anyway. Not sure what this guy is referring to, in any case.
    Post edited by Arctic at 2012-10-26 14:59:31
  • GatsuGatsu
    Posts: 651
    I wanna see that video of him punching the dog in the throat. I'm curious to see if it's as bad as it sounds.
  • GemmaGemma
    Posts: 103
    I was on a social networking site called "tumblr" a few weeks ago, and I put "shiba inu" in the search bar, as they usually have loads of amazing photos of them :)

    But I read a post a teenager had put talking about her grandparents' shiba. She claimed the shiba was stubborn, badly behaved and pulled like a steam train on the lead.
    Anyway she then went on to explain how she took the dog for a walk and took it on herself to "train" this dog, as her grandparents were clearly "inadequate".

    I wish I could re-find the actual post so that I could post it here :( but this is basically what I remember from it -
    She said the dog was pulling so she insisted on putting a choker on the shiba and everytime the dog pulled she made a sharp correction. The dog wasnt listening to her (not surprised) so she decided to try and flip the dog onto its back. She went on to explain how it took her around 20 minutes to pin him and ended up with multiple bite marks all up her arms but it was "worth it" to show the dog who was boss and discipline him and how her grandparents needed to understand it was all for the greater good. And then posted "Ceaser for the win" at the bottom.

    Now I dont know who to be more angry at, the girl or Ceaser. She shouldnt have taken it on herself to "train" (the term "train" used very loosely here, I'd prefer the term "punish") somebody elses dog. And before taking that on she should have atleast taken it upon herself to look into different methods of training and then decided for herself which one was correct, safest and had the best results.

    Its tools like Ceaser who make naive people believe that simply whacking your dog on the throat and flipping it over is going to create a balanced well behaved companion. Im pretty sure this isnt the only case where someone got injured due to trying to reconstruct his methods. Not to mention the poor shiba who probably thought it was being attacked!

    Im so happy this thread is here! Finally have a place to vent my anger about this idiot!

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

In this Discussion

Who's Online (0)