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What the experts say about "The Dog Whisperer" (Cesar Millan)
  • MayamaMayama
    Posts: 270
  • sandrat888sandrat888
    Posts: 576
  • orangedoggieorangedoggie
    Posts: 395
    Does anyone remember the "red zone" Jindo that he worked with? That dog ended up being passed around from rescue to rescue. He disappeared and I hope he found a home. So much for choking him into being "calm and submissive". The only Shiba I remember seeing was one that barked too much. I wonder if he doesn't take on primitive breeds anymore because they don't respond well to his dominance methods. Good luck flooding a Shiba or rolling it.
    Post edited by orangedoggie at 2012-05-24 12:54:33
  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 3495
    @Orangedoggie, the shiba that CM failed to train, he ended up taking into his own "pack" and gave the family one of his own dogs.
  • shibamistressshibamistress
    Posts: 5171
  • orangedoggieorangedoggie
    Posts: 395
    Ugh, now I'm sad for the Jindo.
    There's a Mal he choked too? I knew about a Siberian. Oh, who am I kidding - he chokes most dogs.
  • shibamistressshibamistress
    Posts: 5171
  • orangedoggieorangedoggie
    Posts: 395
    Well, I think we're talking about the same dog "Shadow". He really looks like a wolf hybrid to me, but I don't know what they said he was on that episode.

    Oh, and the difference between Mals and Sibes is mostly size. Mals have bigger bone and were used to haul heavy freight. Sibes were built for speed. Blue eyes on a Mal is a fault.
    Post edited by orangedoggie at 2012-05-24 21:15:38
  • shibamistressshibamistress
    Posts: 5171
  • orangedoggieorangedoggie
    Posts: 395
    That episode is just so egregious to me. He sets the dog/wolf up for failure and then picks a fight with him so he can dominate the dog. When the dog can't find an out, he fights for his life and gets strangled until he's "calm and submissive". The owners should be ashamed of themselves for letting that "expert" do that to their dog.
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
  • shibamistressshibamistress
    Posts: 5171
  • Sarah_Jay12Sarah_Jay12
    Posts: 316
  • shibamistressshibamistress
    Posts: 5171
  • Sarah_Jay12Sarah_Jay12
    Posts: 316
  • WillWill
    Posts: 35
    I must admit I'm kind of on the fence about CM. on the one hand a lot of the comments and quotes ring true, but on the other hand the guy has near 40 dogs so he must be doing something right or it'd be chaos!

    I think his methods of exposure therapy for dogs fearful of shiny floors etc is worth noting, but I'm not sure how he would manage with my Kuma, whose only crime is being incredibly skittish!

    On that note, as an inexperienced dog owner (luckily my partner is not) can anyone recommend any reading or web articles on dog communications?
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
  • orangedoggieorangedoggie
    Posts: 395
    I have this book. It's pretty interesting. I just wish the pictures were better. Many of them are fuzzy and they are all black and whites so sometimes it's not easy to see what the author is pointing out.
    It didn't tell me much that I didn't already know. My dog is not aggressive unless his space is barged into so I've learned the signs of "rude dog" and don't let them get near him unless I can't help it. Dogs that approach him correctly are invited into his space. Unfortunately, those dogs are pretty rare here.
  • sandrat888sandrat888
    Posts: 576
  • curlytailscurlytails
    Posts: 2779
  • WillWill
    Posts: 35
    Thanks for the resources all :-)

    I'll have a look at your thread Curlytails
  • DianaBostonDianaBoston
    Posts: 254
    @orangedoggie -- what you say about primitive dogs not responding to aversive methods...... I got a very very good example of this last night. I took my girl out for her last little walk before bed. As we were walking down the street, I bent down to take a leaf off her back and accidentally stepped on her toe (I actually just barely grazed it). Well, being the drama queen she is, she perceived a HUGE hurt and had a literally 1-second fit of rage where she snarled and showed her teeth. Then, in 1 second, she was all happy again after I apologized profusely. Most other breeds would probably yelp and act scared if you accidentally stepped on a toe... So, I second what you say about good luck doing an alpha roll or a scruff grab on a Shiba!
  • shibamistressshibamistress
    Posts: 5171
  • orangedoggieorangedoggie
    Posts: 395
    My dog had an emergency surgery a few weeks ago and one of the meds was "chewable" Baytril. He.did.not.like.it.
    Twice a day mealtimes turned into a war zone, with me trying to find new ways to disguise it inside food, watching him expertly remove the pill from the food, chopping it into quarters and hiding it in tripe balls, him removing the pills again, and me giving up and forcing him to swallow it. My husband had to hold him so I could work his mouth open enough to get the pill in. It usually took 5 tries even though I put the pill waaaaaay back. One day he growled, and my husband went to scruff him. My dog went from grumpy to scared immediately (we just don't rough handle him ever) and I told my husband to stop!
    I mean there are growls and growls and it wasn't a "ima gonna bite you growl." He was just being grumpy. Scuffing him was just going to make it so much worse. And he took his pill and never growled again even though we still had a few days left. I'm sure if we had used punishment, he would have gotten much, much worse.
  • AnnaAnna
    Posts: 621
    Hammond doesn't mind scruffing, but I rarely do it as a corrective measure. Normally only when he's getting too rough with the cat, or is super wound up and is biting me too hard during play and will not stop, and even then it's more of a calm "I'm holding you still until you calm down" than an aggressive measure.

    But it doesn't upset/scare him, because I do it CONSTANTLY as part of rough-housing play. I'll grab the back of his neck scruff really quick, or grab and shake him a little, or grab the sides of his head and make him do a goofy smile. He loves it and yodels and gnaws on my hands and licks my face, haha. I also grab his ears, teeth, tongue, lips, legs, and paws the same way, so he's been getting better at all those types of handling because it's almost always involved with fun time.
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4786
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3664
  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 8589
  • LosechLosech
    Posts: 2516
    Response to someone asking why another does not like Ceasar Millan. Some errors here and there, but I like the links.

    http://hopefulveterinarian.tumblr.com/post/25902588496/queer-io-asked-i-know-its-not-really-my-place-to-ask
    Post edited by Losech at 2012-07-11 08:43:19
  • RyuDragonRyuDragon
    Posts: 319
    http://www.sfgate.com/magazine/article/The-Anti-Cesar-Millan-Ian-Dunbar-s-been-2550043.php#page-1

    Interesting article I found discussing Ian Dunbar vs. Cesar Milan
  • Post edited by Calia at 2012-09-22 19:19:22
  • Post edited by notoriousscrat at 2012-10-24 17:00:33
  • Interesting interview and very pointed questions. humm...Weak justifications and examples on CMs part though.....would have given him some slack if he admittedly indicated that he continues to learn. Man it seems like he has a non flexible view when the data is clearly out there. Just read it man.....which makes me questions his literacy skills.

    Such is life.....you get what you get with him.
    Snf
  • McYogiMcYogi
    Posts: 518
  • kayla4554kayla4554
    Posts: 169
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3664
  • RyuDragonRyuDragon
    Posts: 319
    I haven't seen it myself but I have heard people talk about at least one that was on the show. I think it had door bolting issues.
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
  • tatonkatatonka
    Posts: 1210
    Post edited by tatonka at 2012-10-25 23:24:54
  • curlytailscurlytails
    Posts: 2779
    Post edited by curlytails at 2012-10-26 00:01:49
  • Post edited by shibamistress at 2012-10-26 00:41:48
  • JuniJuni
    Posts: 1269
    But wasn't the cat example something he came up with after questions about dogs living in family groups? He obviously couldn't think of a good example of dogs 'disciplining' each other. I also thought it was silly the way he described Mexico as a happy, peaceful place where dogs and people live in harmony.
  • ArcticArctic
    Posts: 513
    Dogs do live off-leash in Mexico! Because they're in the streets. As strays. It's actually very depressing to see.
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
  • ArcticArctic
    Posts: 513
    I have over a dozen relatives in Mexico. Many own dogs that are pampered just like our pups in the US. But there are also at on of stray dogs (which is a horrible thing to see), and I would say that overall, even my family's dogs that live a normal middle-class lifestyle of walks, being taken to the groomer, etc. aren't quite on the level of the US. the "dog" culture isn't as permeating or as developed, from my family's personal experience anyway. Not sure what this guy is referring to, in any case.
    Post edited by Arctic at 2012-10-26 14:59:31
  • GatsuGatsu
    Posts: 651
    I wanna see that video of him punching the dog in the throat. I'm curious to see if it's as bad as it sounds.
  • GemmaGemma
    Posts: 103
    I was on a social networking site called "tumblr" a few weeks ago, and I put "shiba inu" in the search bar, as they usually have loads of amazing photos of them :)

    But I read a post a teenager had put talking about her grandparents' shiba. She claimed the shiba was stubborn, badly behaved and pulled like a steam train on the lead.
    Anyway she then went on to explain how she took the dog for a walk and took it on herself to "train" this dog, as her grandparents were clearly "inadequate".

    I wish I could re-find the actual post so that I could post it here :( but this is basically what I remember from it -
    She said the dog was pulling so she insisted on putting a choker on the shiba and everytime the dog pulled she made a sharp correction. The dog wasnt listening to her (not surprised) so she decided to try and flip the dog onto its back. She went on to explain how it took her around 20 minutes to pin him and ended up with multiple bite marks all up her arms but it was "worth it" to show the dog who was boss and discipline him and how her grandparents needed to understand it was all for the greater good. And then posted "Ceaser for the win" at the bottom.

    Now I dont know who to be more angry at, the girl or Ceaser. She shouldnt have taken it on herself to "train" (the term "train" used very loosely here, I'd prefer the term "punish") somebody elses dog. And before taking that on she should have atleast taken it upon herself to look into different methods of training and then decided for herself which one was correct, safest and had the best results.

    Its tools like Ceaser who make naive people believe that simply whacking your dog on the throat and flipping it over is going to create a balanced well behaved companion. Im pretty sure this isnt the only case where someone got injured due to trying to reconstruct his methods. Not to mention the poor shiba who probably thought it was being attacked!

    Im so happy this thread is here! Finally have a place to vent my anger about this idiot!

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