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What the experts say about "The Dog Whisperer" (Cesar Millan)
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3664
    On another note, training schools that I have attended that focus on competition training (goes beyond what you would get from a Petco class) and allow the use of choke chains look down on what CM is doing. He is abusing the use of the choke collar, as it is only meant to be jerked on and not kept tight for more than a second. They even handed out fliers stating what not to do with a choke chain, such as leave it on when not training or tightening it longer than what it's meant for. These are people who feel that a choke chain is necessary for training a dog, and even they don't see him as a role model.
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  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 8583
    I have a question for those of you who approve of aversive methods of training...

    If you could receive the same result (or a BETTER result) using positive methods of training, would you choose to continue to use aversive methods?

    If so, why? And if so, why not try the positive training methods instead?


    I am not trying to start an argument, but instead learn from everyone else's opinions. So try and keep responses civil. Thanks!
    Bella 2Mountains 2Nola 2
    Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia.
    I Wander, I Ride
  • Good responses everyone, and I agree we've already gone over most of this. I also think it is worth noting that many of here STARTED with more "traditional" training methods and then went on to become positive trainers.

    Also good point about the use of training collars (ie. choke collars) as even the trainer I went to years ago, who was a "traditional" (read aversive) trainer, strongly condemned the things CM does routinely (like "hanging" the dog). Those kinds of things would get you kicked out of class.

    I'm appalled by the idea of putting a prong collar on a puppy. Absolutely appalled. There is NO REASON to do that, and it could damage the pup's neck and trachea. In fact, I pretty much wrote off an entire trainer with attached boarding kennel because they suggested I use a prong collar on my 11 week old Akita pup (or an E-Collar!).

    Alpha rolls? The only time I got bit by my male Shiba was trying. Luckily, we figure out much less aversive ways to train. Besides the fact that that the connection between wolf/dog is dubious at best as we've gone over and over here, it is also worth noting that in all my time with a multiple dog family, I've NEVER seen my dogs do the so-called alpha roll. Never. There is self-handicapping in play, when one will roll over while playing, but that is very very different. Most corrections I've seen between dogs (that don't escalate to fighting) are scruff nips.

    I'm against these kind of training methods in general (and yes, through experience with both types of training) but I think they are a recipe for disaster with Shibas and other so-called "primitive" breeds, which, as Lindsay points out, are more like feral dogs. I would say that part of that manifests in their cautious nature, and that because of that, training that is not forceable, but rather convinces them how good it is to do something, is much more effective with them. I've had very little luck forcing a Shiba to do anything reliably, but I can easily coax them into all sorts of things!
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 2242
    Good question Casey.

    Yea, this is becoming a circular discussion...

    @tucker - You wrote "If you've got a primitive breed that is more feral, I would imagine approaching them as one would a pack of wolves would make a lot of sense."

    A "primitive" dog (breed) does not equal a wolf. The most primitive dogs (breeds) in existence share less in common (behaviorally and sociologically) with wolves and more in common with foxes, wild dogs, and feral dogs. These types of canine may group together but do not necessarily (always) form rigid dominance-based social hierarchies. It's a real stretch, and I've seen this a lot with CM supports, to say "Its the same way in EVERY social structure". By writing something like that, you polarize your argument.

    Here is an example:

    Of course wolves are not dogs, so let's look at a recent (2010) piece of research by Roberto Bonanni of the University of Parma and his associates. They looked at free-ranging packs of dogs in Italy and found that leadership was a very fluid thing. For example, in one pack, which had 27 members, there were 6 dogs that habitually took turns leading the pack, but at least half of the adult dogs were leaders, at least some of the time. The dogs that were usually found leading the pack tended to be the older, more experienced dogs, but not necessarily the most dominant. The pack seems to allow leadership to dogs, who at particular times seem to be most likely to contribute to the welfare of the pack through knowledge that can access the resources they require.
    -Stanley Coren, Ph.D.
    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/canine-corner/201007/canine-dominance-is-the-concept-the-alpha-dog-valid

    So I guess "Its the same way in EVERY social structure" except the one described above?

    ----

    My wife and I live with 15+ dogs, who all run as a group. We have big dogs, little dogs, "aggressive" dogs, passive dogs, hunters, herders, and guardians. Among our group of dogs, who spend the majority of their time interacting socially with one another, I have NEVER witnessed one "alpha rolling" the other. We've also had a few litters, and I've never once seen a mother dog "alpha roll" their pups.

    So, how does an "alpha roll" then become something "normal" in dog society? Is it that our dogs differ from every other dog on earth, or is it that these "rules" do not actually apply to every dog on earth?

    Here is the thing tho, the social structure of wild or domestic canine really has little to do with dog training. Learning Theory works with or without social order whether it be dominance based or communist. One has nothing to do with the other.

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    @tucker - You wrote:
    And before you guys criticize him or take other doctors words for how bad and abusive he is, you should check out his literature. Get in touch with people that he has actually helped. Have any of you ever read one of his books?
    >> I can't speak for the others, but I can speak for myself (the person who started this thread). Yes, of course I have read is books, I wouldn't make a post about him and his methods if I had not watched his show and read his books. BTW, you do realize that CM is not a doctor, right? He had no formal training in ethology, dog training, or dog behavior before he started his show. He was a dog groomer.

    In regards to choke collars and choke chains, I'm surprised that you read this entire thread and came to the conclusion that the bulk of the participants do not properly understand how to use (a choker for) punishment within the construct of learning theory... or, perhaps you didn't read the whole thread???

    I have lots of anecdotal stories I can give on why I don't subscribe to CM's methods or the dominance/alpha theory, but I don't think anecdotal stories really provide that much information and are often exaggerated or taken out of context. Instead I prefer to share solid science-based documentation that backs up my claims - things written by professionals in the field. Like this...

    http://www.nonlineardogs.com/socialorganisation.html
    http://www.apdt.com/petowners/articles/docs/DominanceArticle.pdf
    http://www.apdt.com/petowners/choose/dominance.aspx
    http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/advanstar/vm0908/#/32
    http://abrionline.org/article.php?id=254
    http://abrionline.org/article.php?id=225
    http://www.theotherendoftheleash.com/cesar-millan-and-merial/
    http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/lets-just-be-humans-training-dogs
    http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/macho-myth
    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/canine-corner/201007/canine-dominance-is-the-concept-the-alpha-dog-valid

    For you CM fans, can you provide some science-based documents, written by leading accredited professionals (this means people with a degree, not just a training certification) in the (dog behavior/dog training) industry, that back up CM's techniques and behavioral theories?

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    Post edited by BradA1878 at 2011-01-24 21:02:29
  • Good post, Brad. Great to have all those links in one place, too.
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 2242
    Some more quotes and points on this subject from an expert...

    http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/befuddled-translation

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  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 2242
    "Reward Training versus Discipline-Based Dog Training: Which Works Better" -by Stanley Coren, Ph.D.
    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/canine-corner/201012/reward-training-versus-discipline-based-dog-training-which-works-better

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  • Just had to bump this for an experience I just had on another forum. We were talking about this website: http://www.shitmypetsruined.com/ and laughing, commiserating, but also talking about in some cases it was clear just crating the dog or giving it more exercise would help.

    Then someone came on and lectured us all on how if we were "dominant pack leaders" this would never happen, and irresponsible we were as dog owners, etc. And this from someone who does not have a dog, only cats! Beyond how annoyed I was to see this CM crap and being told I wasn't "responsible" if I didn't follow his methods, I was also disappointed to see how far his ideas have infiltrated people's thinking: here is someone who doesn't even have a dog who is telling other people to do this.

    I explained why it such methods were problematic and included some of the links from above, but I doubt it will make much difference. Still, it makes me crazy.

    And it's so unnecessary too....I was thinking about the difference in methods just the other night, when I was talking to my husband about how Oskar, at 9 months, thinks the world is just a wonderful place. He's never been physically "corrected." He's never been yelled out (well almost never), and he gets lots of delicious treats when he does things right! He's a very happy dog, and while still not an outgoing or super confident one, due to his cautious nature, he'd be a mess if I used coercive training on him.

    And re: yelling.....I did yell at him the other day when he was trying to play roughly with Bel when I was taking her outside. I was panicked that he was going to hurt her leg, which is recovering from surgery, so I yelled "No!" at him. He stopped, and looked at me like "huh? Why is she yelling? What is that word she's yelling?" Then he offered a sit! It was pretty funny really, once I calmed down, because it was clear that this is so outside of his experience it just startled him. (The only negative reward marker he's gotten has been "nah nah nah" and he does understand that means try something else, but I was in too much of a panic over Bel to think to use that!)
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 2242
    *barf*
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 2242
    bump
  • MegaenMegaen
    Posts: 265
    Ok so if it's been scientifically proven now that these methods are bad why does he still have his show shown? Granted I haven't read the entire thread as I have to go pick hubby up from work so if this was already asked sorry :(
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 2242
    The same reason there are shows about Bigfoot on NatGeo - entertainment value and ratings.

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  • LosechLosech
    Posts: 2516
    Pfff my brother is a Sasquatch and there's nothin interesting about him.

    Back on topic. There is a guy who frequents the dog park I visit who recently picked up that new dog book Dog Sense by DR. Bradshaw. He said that he was trying to use positive methods with Hank instead of the traditional methods he's used with all his previous dogs then began to read that book and really saw how much of a difference there was with Hank and his other dogs. He's convinced he's never going to train in the old methods again.

    And other people I meet are always going "shht!" to their dogs (who ignore them) or spew dominance crap about their dogs. Yesterday I was talking with someone who had a little red Border Collie. I was telling them about Juneau's problems with other dogs and how I've been working with her, and they instantly said "Oh she must be the dominant one." Honestly? Juneau doesn't have a shred of "dominance" in her, and when they said I should dominate her more I began to get standoffish and told them if I did that Juneau would break down. She has, since I've tried that before I actually knew what I was doing with dogs.
    Juneau is a very timid dog who happens to have intense BC drive, and when you combine those things together dominance training just flat out doesn't work. Period. It makes everything worse.
  • sandrat888sandrat888
    Posts: 576
    Also check out the Dominance Controversy article written by Dr. Sophia Yin, http://drsophiayin.com/philosophy/dominance/ .

    Taken from the article, here is the definition of dominance: In animal behavior, dominance is defined as a relationship between individuals that is established through force, aggression and submission in order to establish priority access to all desired resources (food, the opposite sex, preferred resting spots, etc). A relationship is not established until one animal consistently defers to another.

    I was at a seminar this weekend where Dr. Sophia Yin spoke. She stressed that dominance is not a personality trait and the term "dominance" is abused and overused to the point that it doesn't really tell you much when someone says "my dog is dominant". She avoids using the term and instead will just describe what the dog is doing in what context. You can say a dog is aroused (excited, fearful or aggressive etc) because of blah blah blah.

    Another thing pet owners should consider when using the dominance-based training method is that the dominance theory uses forces, threats of forces, so you will have a lot of confrontations with your pet through out his life. To make sure the dog is at the lowest of the totem pole, everyone in the family or anyone that interacts with the dogs have to use threats of forces or forces to get the dog submit. This is unrealistic as not everyone is physically capable of using forces.
    Post edited by sandrat888 at 2011-06-28 16:57:51
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 2242
    I think it's interesting how her views seem to conflict a little with Dr. Dodman's views. They seems to have an ever-evolving difference of opinion, and based on what you wrote, Dr. Yin may have changed her views a little yet again...

    I agree with most of what Sophia says and agree wholeheartedly with the anti-violent approach but cannot for the life of me come to grips with the idea that dominance no longer exists in the canine psyche. After all, that’s how cohesion is maintained in a group setting (I daren’t say “pack” because that is no longer fashionable parlance). A formal hierarchy obviates the need for constant squabbles.

    What most people seem to be missing in these discussions is that dominance and aggression are not synonymous. In fact, they often move in opposite directions. True alphas, of the canine or human kind, are rarely aggressive. So that begs the question “why would a dog in a domestic setting be aggressive to his owners?” Is it because he is alpha? Not likely. Is it because he is fearful of his owners? No way. It seems to occur when – okay, the pack – is unstable. In that case, there is lack of understanding between the various elements of the group, unclear communication, no set rules, and so on. In this situation, a canine “wanna-be” may try it on, when the mood takes him, in an attempt to have things go his way.


    Source: http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/dominance-dilemma

    Either way, they are both well-respected in the community and are in-line with the view that the alpha/dominance concepts are old-hat and not based on modern science.

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  • sandrat888sandrat888
    Posts: 576
    Dr. Dodman: I agree with most of what Sophia says and agree wholeheartedly with the anti-violent approach but cannot for the life of me come to grips with the idea that dominance no longer exists in the canine psyche.

    I read the Huffington Post article referred in Dr. Dodman's post and did not see where Dr. Yin suggested canine dominance does not exist, so I do not understand why Dr. Dodman would make the above comment.

    What I got from Dr. Yin's work and her speech is that dominance theory or being alpha is not really relevant in explaining human/dog relationship.

    Wolves have a pretty strong incentive to be in a pack and to live together as they usually need to hunt bigger prey as a team, so a hierarchy is needed. Recent study has shown that wolf pack usually consists of families and the hierarchy is usually set kind of like human household where the adults are leading with the youngsters following.

    On the other hand, feral dogs scavenge and do not have strong desires to stick together. You may have bullies, but everyone scavenges whatever food they can find and mate with whoever that is willing to mate with them and no one dog has a strong control over the other feral dogs.

    Dr. Yin believes dog/human relationship is more like human/human individual relationship, rather than everyone has a specific hierarchy within a group.

    Dr. Dodman: So that begs the question “why would a dog in a domestic setting be aggressive to his owners?” Is it because he is alpha? Not likely. Is it because he is fearful of his owners? No way. It seems to occur when – okay, the pack – is unstable. In that case, there is lack of understanding between the various elements of the group, unclear communication, no set rules, and so on. In this situation, a canine “wanna-be” may try it on, when the mood takes him, in an attempt to have things go his way.

    I do not completely agree with Dr. Dodman's statement above. Dog aggression toward his owners can be because he is fearful of his owners as Dr. Dodman later pointed out "the pack is unstable". I don't agree a canine "wanna-be" want to try it on because he wants to be dominant or alpha. The dog is just reacting as he can't figure it out the house rule and is mostly just reactive because the owner is not being consistent and clear in his or her communication.

    Maybe I am reading Dr. Dodman wrong, but I just don't see how being dominant is the reason for aggression toward owner. What's your take on this, Brad?
    Post edited by sandrat888 at 2011-06-28 20:15:58
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 2242
    @sandrat888 - I tend to agree with you on some of Dr. Dodman's statements. I certainly think a dog's aggression directed at a human (or dog) can be fear-motivated. I also don't really subscribe to the "unstable pack" concept as a cause of aggression.

    IMHO I think abusive and abrasive (aversive) training methods, lack of fairness from their owners, insecurity, poor communication, pain, and an unclear leadership (NOT a "pack leader") are the main causes for aggression in dogs - with insecurity being the #1 cause.

    I don't add under-socialization to the list because I don't think that is the cause of aggression. I think underlying issues (like I mentioned above) are the cause for aggression with socialization playing a big role in augmenting the underlying personality traits (good or bad). I also tend to think of poor socialization along the same lines as aversive training methods - IMHO under-socializing a puppy is a form of abuse.

    However, I also don't agree with Dr. Yin's definition of "dominance". It's my understanding that in ethology the term "dominance" means "priority access to resources". In Dr. Yin's definition she inserts some extra opinion in the definition. Most certainly the priority access is not ALWAYS established through "force, aggression and submission". I've seen (more than once) that seniority plays a bigger role in resource access. Also, what about a mother and her pups, certainly she is not using force or aggression to control the litter's resources... And I can say for sure that puppies do not (always) show "submissive" (appeasing) behaviors toward their mother when they want food.

    So, while I agree with some of what both of them write, there are parts that I don't agree with... But, the parts I do agree with out number the parts I don't agree with. Whereas with CM I don't agree with MOST of what he is doing/saying in his shows/books.

    I actually really like Dr. Dunbar's take on the whole "leader" thing...



    I tend to agree with him. Yes, of course we need to lead our dogs (a world run by dogs would be pretty unpleasant for humans), but we don't need to pretend we are dogs to do that - or even have an understanding of wild (or domestic) canine social order. We just simply need to make rules and set our dog up to succeed within those rules.

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    Post edited by BradA1878 at 2011-06-29 11:31:38
  • curlytailscurlytails
    Posts: 2779
    Just saw this parody of Cesar Millan vs. Cartman from South Park. I guess it's been around for years but this is the first I'd seen of it. Interesting that he's willing to put it on his own blog!

    http://www.cesarsway.com/newsandevents/cesarsblog/Cesar-Millan-vs-Cartman?utm_source=mobilestorm&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=southpark
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    Bowdu 寶肚 (Shiba) and Bowpi 寶媲 (Basenji) with M.C.
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4786
    Isn't that funny? Thanks for sharing this.

    @drewrilla, there are some good links on current research posted on this thread, FYI.
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
    Post edited by lindsayt at 2011-10-06 13:31:17
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    I love that south park episode saw it when it aired. lol
    Photobucket
    Nicole, 5year old Bella(Boxer), and 4year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3664
    LoL, that South Park episode is the only CM thing I like, mainly cause Cartman deserves it.
    image
  • LosechLosech
    Posts: 2516
    Haha, yeah, that episode was great.

    My favorite part about the "Dog Whisperer"?
    "Do not attempt the techniques you are about to see without consulting a professional"
    That is shown before every segment of every episode, and I highly doubt that most if not all of the people who "use his methods" actually consult with someone first.

  • AraksAraks
    Posts: 399
    @Losech That's probably just there in case someone does use those methods and it makes their dog worse so that they can't sue him or whatnot.

    And that South Park episode cracks me up each time.
    Post edited by Araks at 2011-10-07 02:46:23
  • HamletHamlet
    Posts: 146
    I disagree with the "methods" espoused by CM, but I do appreciate how he encourages dog owners to learn how to read their dogs and feed their dogs the type of energy they want the dogs to emulate. I think most people don't understand their dogs very well and as a result, struggle with trying to figure out "why" something was happening. Or, they are nervous about something and the dog feeds off of that, making the situation even worse.

    From my own experience, learning to read my dog's mannerisms and redirect as necessary - as well as projecting the attitude I wanted the dog to take (calm, etc) - is vital in managing a high energy dog. It's helped alot with managing the pack integration for us.
  • I agree that energy is important, and being able to read dogs is important, but there are MUCH better trainers/behavioralists to follow on this. Turid Rugaas, for example, has some great books on dog behavior: http://www.amazon.com/Turid-Rugaas/e/B001JOTYTO

    There are plenty of better people to recommend.
  • HamletHamlet
    Posts: 146
    I actually don't follow CM at all XD

    I really enjoyed the Nova special on dogs...unfortunately, I've read more books on cat behavior than dog behavior! (Other than internet books)
  • I agree that staying calm and assertive is important, but I think it is pretty common sense and that alone is not going to help you train a dog or solve any behavior problem.

    I do not agree that Mr. Milan is much of an expert at teaching canine body languages. He clearly ignores many of the fearful signals the dog shows and explain everything in dominant/submissive context. Many of his techniques just suppress the behaviors, rather than really changing the mental state of the dog to not react inappropriately.

    For anyone that is interested in learning dog body language, I would recommend Sarah Kalnajs's "The Language of Dogs" DVD, http://www.amazon.com/Language-Dogs-Sarah-Kalnajs/dp/B000P28RXU . I find it very educational and shows many of the canine body languages in better context (mostly dogs in the shelter Sarah worked with).
    Post edited by sandrat888 at 2011-10-10 18:30:16
  • AraksAraks
    Posts: 399
    @sandrat888 I completely agree in that he ignores a lot of the fearful signals. I remember seeing a couple minutes of an episode where a dog was running in the backyard scared with it's tail between it's legs barking, and all he said was along the lines of "He's being dominant and trying to protect his territory from us." It was pretty funny though, because my 15 year old sister was there and just said, "What's he doing? That dog just looks scared." So yeah, I think my little sister understands canine body language better than he does.
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4786
    Anyone who is good with cat behavior should be FINE with Shiba behavior, lol.
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
  • AnnaAnna
    Posts: 621
    @lindsayt You've just given me nightmare material. XD I'm imagining a dog as clever as a Shiba and as vindictive and spiteful as my cat and it's turning into a Home Alone situation, except with the dog as Macaulay Caulkin and me as the bumbling burglars. Haha.
  • Just saw this link on dogster and thought it was a good addition to this thread:

    http://dogblog.dogster.com/2011/10/25/please-don’t-call-me-a-dog-whisperer/?v=1

    One thing I particularly like is that in the comments, someone again comes up with that comment about how there are many ways to train dogs, and no right way, and Millan had helped many, etc. Someone points out that while there are many ways to train dogs, there are many, many POSITIVE ways to train dogs, and that there is no need to use coercive methods that can harm dogs. I agree!
  • MegaenMegaen
    Posts: 265
    Found this via FB... it really is sickening to know this person has a tv show those poor dogs....
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=RFCGtatpCwI
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3664

    image
    Post edited by Calia at 2011-11-05 12:13:43
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3664
    And a very confrontational clip from one of his episodes that has pissed a lot of people off
    image
  • OMG! Hi kicked the poor dog to instigate the whole thing! UNBELIEVABLE!!
    Things like that just piss me off! :-(
  • @Calia...yeah, the one you posted is one of the examples I've seen of him choking a dog....it's totally disgusting. The dog was basically being strangled--of course it fought!

    Why anyone think this is an example of "training" is beyond me. And if someone did that to one of my dogs, he'd be in a world of hurt.
  • HamletHamlet
    Posts: 146
    @shibamistress My parents are always calling me the "Dog Whisperer" which is a bit silly and annoying! Yeah, I pay attention to what my dogs are telling me and watch their body language/etc. And yes, my dogs are well-behaved and friendly (unlike yours, sadly, mom and dad *cough*), but that doesn't mean that you need to be "Cesar Milan" to have well-behaved, good tempered dogs. I think my parents and sister would be surprised the amount of thought I've put into discplining in a positive way...and how, at the same time, I correct for behaviors they don't correct for (resource guarding etc. My sister said her dog growls at her when he has a chew bone as if it was silly!). I spent Saturday telling my mom not to correct her dog for growling at Hamlet since I'd rather he growl first than just snapping!
    Post edited by Hamlet at 2011-11-07 16:49:50
  • Thought adding this link to the thread will be appropriate. Another review of the Cesar Milan's way by a trainer who attended his speaking tour recently.

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/heavenlycreatures/2012/01/review-cesar-millans-the-pack-leader-tour/
  • Thanks Sandra.....that's a good blog post, from someone who seemed to start out fairly neutral about CM.
  • Wow! I have often wondered how much damage we had done to Saki because our breeder recommended for us to follow his methods when she was a puppy. After about a month of reading his books and following his theories, just saw her getting worse, to the point my husband wanted to get rid of her. I finally looked into a private trainer who did postive training only and after a short time saw major improvements, but we still are having issuses with trust. It makes me very angry when I think that I did this (because of one person and their influence via television) to such a wonderful dog. Thankfully we started this early on and even with some of her trust issues she has become a loving and caring member of our family, she is 14 months old now. We will continue with the postive training and only recommend this to everyone we know getting a new puppy!
    Deb and Jeff, Appleton, WI
  • LosechLosech
    Posts: 2516
    I shared this with Brad but totally forgot about this thread. It's a bit on the older side (2006) but still a good read.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/31/opinion/31derr.html?pagewanted=all
  • BrewSterBrewSter
    Posts: 193
    i would be in jail if i saw cesaer millan(or anyone) treat my dog like the video above...i dont see my household like a wolfpack where im the alpha but i am "the leader" and i look out for my family (Brewster included)
  • @Losech. Wow. That NYT article was pretty good. here's this part, which is particularly annoying:

    "Women are the worst offenders in his world. In one of the outtakes included in the four-DVD set of the first season of “Dog Whisperer,” Mr. Millan explains that a woman is “the only species that is wired different from the rest.” And a “woman always applies affection before discipline,” he says. “Man applies discipline then affection, so we’re more psychological than emotional. All animals follow dominant leaders; they don’t follow lovable leaders.”

    Mr. Millan’s sexism is laughable; his ethology is outdated."

    I'm afraid I'm not laughing. In addition to treating dogs badly, he's a sexist asshole. Great.
  • LosechLosech
    Posts: 2516
    @shibamistress Yeah, that one gets to me too. A lot of people on the internet think I'm a guy, same in real life due to the way I dress and look but I'm not. I'm also not exactly thinking with emotions. I am a very instinctual person and I have to catch myself before I act. There's no emotion at play there. That really goes against what CM says about women, or at least I do.

    And he's totally wrong about animals not following lovable leaders. There was a tribe of baboons somewhere once and the "alpha" baboons all ate some poisoned meat and died, but none of the lower baboons did since the top baboons didn't let them have any. They took over and became a group of baboons without fights and such, something that had never really been seen before. They thrived without the constant struggle for the top spot.
    And also, there's a rather old documentary that follows a wolf pack. It had a very mean female who bullied the other wolves and was always causing unrest in the pack. She and her sister got into a fight and the sister basically killed her. The pack became very peaceful after that and like the baboons, thrived without constant fighting.

    I really did like that article though. I should post it on the Nihon Ken side too but I don't want to start the debate up again. I was kinda waiting for someone else to post so I didn't have to, like with the Shiba side XP
  • I'll go post it on the NK side....it is a very well written piece and deserves to be read more widely. And I suspect there won't be a huge debate about it after all :)
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4786
    I am reading one of his books. I suggest others here do as well, not so they can learn and absorb methods, but to better "know thy enemy".

    It will help explain some of the cultural differences better, especially the machismo viewpoint. There's one thing I have to say, that the man is a passionate, hard worker, which by itself is admirable, and something that more people in America should emulate (the working hard and following your passion part, not the strangling dogs part). Anyways, I think a lot of what people find so fundamentally distatesful about the man, as a person, is largely the result of being raised in a culture different than our own.

    That doesn't excuse anything of course. Ass holes like Brad Pattison are white as snow, so he's just totally off the mark in regards to learning theory, and needlessly cruel. Now that Milan has had all the "benefit" of living in America for a long time, with all this education and current training literature at his fingertips, I think it's time for him to update his thinking, to put it politely. But he won't, too many people in Hollywood with money to spend. He's really a salesman more than anything, and he sells a good story and is great at marketing, but he's a horrible trainer. I dont care if he doesn't believe himself to be, and supporters can take the "but he's a dog psychologist, not a trainer" route all they want to. He's a dog trainer and calling himself a psychologist should be offensive to REAL psychologists everywhere.
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
  • AnnaAnna
    Posts: 621
    @sandrat888 Yay, that's from my town! Several people I know (including the trainers I'm currently taking Hammond to) were in the group of "protesters" she mentions in the article.

    And I put "protesting" in quotes because they weren't really protesting (by my definition - they weren't saying negative things about Cesar or anything like that), they just stood outside and handed out reading material on positive training methods.
  • Lindsay, I thought of that, and I suppose there is a basis for some cultural difference, BUT...I still don't buy it. He's Mexican. My family is Mexican. From Nuevo Mexico, not Mexico proper (at least not for 200 years or so), but still. And since I live here, I have plenty of Mexican friends/family members from both sides of the border, and I actually find the machismo aspect not to be nearly as obvious as what some people claim; I think the whole issue has been exaggerated, and I also suspect a lot of the cultural differences have to do more with class differences than anything else. So while he or others may claim it's a cultural difference, that's just a way to hide behind culture (and actually misrepresent Mexico). He's a sexist ass here or in Mexico.

    I know you're not supporting him, and you point out quite well that Pattison is still an ass too, but I'm addressing the cultural differences, because I've heard people say it before, and I don't actually think it does address his issues.

    he is good at marketing himself, though. And I'll say this, he must have some good "handlers" himself, if he knows to have them cut the sexist things he says.

    And yeah, that Pattison guy? He may even be worse. UGH!
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4786
    Yeah, he does talk about machismo a bit in his book, but like I said, Pattison is not from Mexico and he is almost worse! Ultimately he is responsible for the route he takes when training dogs, regardless of where and how he grew up as he has a lot of research available to him now.

    And no, I'm definately. Not. A. Supporter.
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    Brad Pattison is nuts seen his show that was on animal planet for short period thankfully it's no longer on it was called in the dog house.. His techniques are rather weird.

    He seemed to have disdain for giving dogs treats with training and his techniques are not my cup of tea.. >.<<div class="UserSignature">Photobucket
    Nicole, 5year old Bella(Boxer), and 4year old Saya(Shiba inu)

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