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Let's discuss the role of dominance in the social hierarchy & training of domestic and wild canine.
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 2240
    Instead of labeling the behavior "dominant", I might just say it's rude.
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    I agree with CrimsonO2 and BradA1878

    "Jumping and placing your paws on another dogs back is not, by default, a sign of dominance, it's a very forward and overt way of play initiation or expelling energy due to excitement/arousal."

    Saya will put her paw on top of her male dachshund friend Blue and I think it's playful, but can be rude depends on the dog and what they're OK with. Some dogs don't like it.

    Blue would do it with Saya and they would jaw spar with each other and rough house and have fun..

    Saya not fond of humping so she would get away from humper or tell the dog enough if it kept doing it.

    I agree it is probably a rude behavior especially if your shiba doesn't like it.

    Maybe distract them and cool things down so they don't get that excited?

    Have they met a lot or was this recent meeting?

    Photobucket
    Nicole, 5year old Bella(Boxer), and 4year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • DebDeb
    Posts: 286
    The very best information I have found to do with this subject is a three volume set, "Handbook of Applied Dog Behavior and Training" by Steven Lindsay. This is an information dense work with plenty of references. However, the Dog Genome Project published studies do give more authoritative information regarding the ancestry of the modern dogs than was available at the time that Steven Lindsay's work was published.

    There is a lot of misinformation on many subjects blabbed around by a lot of people that is so called "common knowledge". If people would only study up on things, actually educate themselves, rather than just automatically regurgitating what they hear and never questioning it.........

    The alpha roll activity and really any aversive training method is nothing more than bullying a dog, all with the thin excuse that dogs are being dominate or alpha and their errors must be punished. Dogs have gotten the short end of the stick, since choking, yanking them around with a leash, administering electric shocks, squirting them with water, etc... became how training was, and sadly still is, commonly done. No wonder it was called "dog breaking". More dogs are euthanized because they are broken from mistreatment than any other ailment.

    Some people don't want to learn that the alpha and dominance theories in relation to training don't hold water. It would take away their excuse to bully.

  • BitiBeaBitiBea
    Posts: 234
    Thank you very much for this thread :)
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  • BitiBeaBitiBea
    Posts: 234
    Also wanted to add my experience with doggie behaviour.

    When my family and I got our Pomeranian we were told they are not off leash dogs. We always used positive reinforcement with him but basically we didn't do any "hard core training" with him. We just let him be himself and he naturally became an incredible dog who is wonderful off leash.

    13 years later I got Kismet. I was told over and over again even more relentlessly that shibas are NOT off leash dogs under any circumstance. Needless to say I once again didn't listen.

    I don't do any "training" with Kismet. I provide the good stuff. Love, food, shelter, walks and the works. Just by providing these things for her she naturally wants to be with me and please me. She has a respect for me because I have a respect for her. I consider her my equal and not my subordinate. We are companions in this journey of life together.

    Kismet is a wonderful off leash dog. I am pretty positive if I poked, spanked or smaked her she would lose the mutual respect and become stubborn or run off Any chance she gets. Who wants to listen to someone who hits you? That being said I am not by any means implying that ALL shibas are good off leash or those that aren't are smacked around. Part of her being great off leash may be luck but I know most of it is due to the bond we have based off of mutual respect and understanding.

    Just my two cents.

    I love love love this thread. It has opened my mind to new information and validated some of my personal beliefs.
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  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 3495
    @BitiBea,

    Haha. Pomeranians aren't good offleash? I haven't heard of that and have seen a lot of pomeranians offleash. Regarding the Shibas....I've actually seen a lot of Shibas offleash at Fort Funston (Bay Area dog park). For some reason shibas are good offleash there but not anywhere else. Lol.

    I have to agree with what you said. Well first off it depends on the dog. But aside from the dog, it depends on your bond with them. I feel that if you genuinely care for the dog and provide for them, there is no reason for them to run off. Bootz is good offleash. She doesn't bolt nor does she run away. Her recall? Questionable. If she's at the dog park, she won't come if she's having fun or isn't tired yet. Recall at home? Great. My family has left the doors open NUMEROUS times. She does not run off, and if she steps outside the house just to smell the air, a simple whistle will bring her back inside.

    I have to say though that my journey and Bootz was bumping. But its definitely smooth now. She use to be food aggressive. But now she's great. I can handle her in ways that usually trigger a growl or nip in most dogs. But she lets me do whatever. :)
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    @BitiBea, I don't want to sidetrack this, but I do feel the need to respond regarding off leash trustability. I apologize if I get way off track, but I do get very defensive when people imply that the fact a dogs is not trustable off leash could be related to a lack of respect or bond based on mutual respect and understanding, because if you have the respect and bond that is why they are trustable off leash.

    I do employ very positive techniques with Bear as the bond is extremely important and I respect him very much. I do work hard to try building a positive relationship, I do provide love, food, shelter, walks and the works. I spend a lot of time just playing with him outside of small training sessions when I can, I also give him opportunities to be a dog (ie dog parks) and expose him to many new opportunities much more so than most dog owners I know. He often seeks me out to play by bringing me things (toys, sticks, coconuts, ect) and absolutely goes nuts when I return home from work every day. BUT, he has a very huge love of just running and chasing (we call it the "tag your it" game) that outweighs all else a lot of time. He is just not trust-able at all off leash (he is just over 1 yrs old) because he does love to just run and run and run and he is independent enough that he doesn't seek permission to do so if the leash gets dropped or he decides to go beyond an open house door without waiting for the approval signal because no one is there to give it to him (if we are there he always waits). He has a very huge energy drive with minimal impulse control when his run/play drive is turned on.

    I do not believe this though is any way a sign that he does not want to be with us just because his impulse control turns off when his high energy drive kicks in that sends him off impulsively running and chasing. I firmly believe we have and continue to reinforce a positive mutually respectful bond with him and his off leash un-trustability is no way related to our training techniques or lack of working on that bond daily.
  • BitiBeaBitiBea
    Posts: 234
    @Bootz, it was 13 years ago when we were told that about poms lol maybe more info these days.

    I totally agree it depends on the individual dog as well as how they are trained. Kismet is naturally very affectionate where other Shibas couldn't care less about pets and snuggles.

    That's great Bootz no longer gets upset with food. Sometimes a bumpy road leads to smoother pavement :)
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    (¸.•´ (¸.•` Kismet & BitiBea~*.
  • BitiBeaBitiBea
    Posts: 234
    @redcattoo, as I said in my post I was not by any means implying that all shibas are good off leash or that there is a lack of trust and understanding. I was merely suggesting that had I thought of myself as "alpha" and Kismet as "to be submissive" she may not be the great off leash dog she is. Perhaps I was not clear enough.
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    (¸.•´ (¸.•` Kismet & BitiBea~*.
  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 3495
    @redcattoo, I think you read her post and it came off wrong. We're not saying that their ability to be offleash is related to their training. We simple just said its based on the dog itself, and also the bond we build with the dog.

    Also since we're on this topic I think it also has to do with "street credit". Its kind of like how a dog can be very cautious while greeting a stranger. But that same dog would have no fear greeting a dog walker/trainer. I hope you guys know what i mean lol.

    @BitiBea I think somebody had an article that says there is no such thing as Alpha? or maybe i remembered it wrong.
  • @ Bootz, I think that's why "alpha" is in quotation marks....BitiBea is not saying it's an legit thing, as the point of the post was more about developing partnerships. :)

    anyway, lots of great comments here! @Deb, and yes, I agree that a lot of people, even those who should know better (trainers, etc) just toss around things they've heard without ever bothering to actually do research. And in some cases, I agree--they just want to stick to their old time worn ways of bullying dogs in the name of an outdated idea (alpha stuff). Most of the time, though, I don't think people even think about it--they've just heard someone throwing the terms around and don't even know what it means really.

    that's why I think this thread can be a good place for people to find links to more real information! So thanks for everyone's additions!
  • curlytailscurlytails
    Posts: 2779
    @redcattoo, I think I see where you're going, and maybe how it's related to this discussion. A quote straight from the masthead of a homepage promoting the Koehler Method (a system of averse and punishment-based training if ever there was one!) states that "Reliability off lead should always be the most significant criterion when evaluating and comparing training methods." There's no allowance for breed proclivities, let alone individual dogs' personalities. The suggestion is that any dog can and should be made to bend to this arbitrary gold standard of effective training. Such standards always put the dog's preferences below your own because they are permanently in a "subordinate" position, which is another way of framing the whole alpha/hierarchy concept of co-existence.

    I don't think anyone in this discussion took it to such absolute degrees, but there are some schools of dog training that harbor such sentiments, and use off-leash reliability to their own conceit. Sometimes we unwittingly reinforce that when we use off-leash training as a proud example of defying the "impossible."

    --

    Meanwhile, sort of related to the Abrantes link, this came up a few weeks ago:
    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/animal-emotions/201212/dogs-dominance-and-cesar-millan-redux-dominance-is-real

    There's a whole stash of blogs and related commentaries linked in that above article.
    image
    Bowdu 寶肚 (Shiba) and Bowpi 寶媲 (Basenji) with M.C.
    Post edited by curlytails at 2013-01-02 21:16:24
  • RikkaRikka
    Posts: 1501
    Agreed completely, @Deb.
    image
    Lauren, living with a 4 y/o Shiba named after a scientist. ☆
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    Very nice points @BitiBea

    I get what your saying and I don't think you mean offense either though it might come off as that to some.

    I also get what @Redcattoo is saying too.

    Sure feeding good diet, good walks, daily training and play time and having a great bond and having the dog not be good off leash doesn't mean your bond with your dog is low.

    There is a reason shiba are described to having a shibatude, selective hearing and so on..

    Saya does good off leash, but I don't want to sound complacent and think nothing would ever happen.

    There have been times where owner thought their dog was great off leash then something happens either chases after a deer and luckily gets caught or runs after something and gets hit by a car..

    What if you encounter a deer, skunk, porcupine, coyote, raccoon, or badger? Those are things I could encounter which none I'd want her to go after.. Well not a porcupine as I don't think they're in my area, but dogs do have run ins with them.. There might be some in Indiana I saw on a blog so never know.

    Even a groundhog I'd never want Saya to meet one. The animal is very thick hide, hard headed, and big teeth and strong front feet! Even in the live trap it was scary coarse it was afraid I'm sure.. Charging at me and hissing. D:

    I'm glad your shiba does well off leash hope it continues and be sure you do it where it is OK and safe.

    I'm in country so I have a lot of land to roam, but even still things can happen. I always carry phone and prepared if needed.

    Shiba can blend in the forest or high grass pretty good. I always have a bandana on her of two colors one blue and bright green and one orange.

    It depends on the dog location and so on. Even so I'd never trust her off leash in the city or town.

    I only do off leash in the backyard and in the trails as they're more controlled in terms of things. Though the trails can have surprises.. I only do it when there is no animals around I usually go couple times around the noise of the dogs, me and the bells tend to run anything in earshot off.

    Though I do think shiba isn't a breed for being off leash their prey drive is high and they tend to really not listen if they're focused on deer, fox, squirrel, or rabbits..

    There is a lot of risk when it comes to having a dog off leash what if it gets into a beaver trap, coyote trap or find poisoned meat meant for a fox or coyote.. :\

    I do feel I have a great bond by working with her in a positive manner and she trusts me more because I'm here for her if she needs help she.

    I feel dog owner ship should feel more like a partnership and a lot of time I think people over analyze things and that tends to put too much stress on owner.. At least it would for me..

    I never tried aversive methods on Saya, but I know she would do bad with it and either shut down or fight.

    I don't want my dog to behave due to learned helplessness I want her to behave because I trust her and put in the work to teach her not to chew on that chew on this or not bolt out of the door because we worked as puppy to wait on command so she isn't ready to rush out soon as the door is open..

    I still work with her on that and other things too.

    My past three dogs where trained at first on aversive methods and it never did anything to teach anything it wasn't till I was old enough and did my own training via treats the dogs did much better. listening.

    I never was able to teach to not pull..

    Bella is first boxer to not pull the whole walk on leash. She was only worked via positive means.

    My mom working with what she learned from it's me or the dog show has helped her before she would be very frustrated which I think added to Bella's crazy behavior.

    Once she kept being consistent on the two techniques to teach loose leash walking Bella showed improvement in small steps. positive reinforcement does take time for some dogs, but in the end I think it is much more worth it.

    Photobucket
    Nicole, 5year old Bella(Boxer), and 4year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    @curlytails and @Saya I appreciate you both kind of got where I was going with my comments.

    I get defensive when off leash comes up because I disagree with linking a dogs reliability off leash to the actual bond formed between dog and owner no matter what training method is used. I don't see the two as co-related when discussing training theories and dominance theories.

    I believe in a lot of cases you can have a good bond with your dog and they can still display independent thought, which will not always result in them choosing to follow your desired request, if it is a truly fluid social unit with shifting changing leaders/followers based on the environment and conditional situations.

    Additionally, some dogs just have less drive and more impulse control for seeking out new exciting things; therefore, are happy remaining status quo next to their owner. I don't believe that in any way is linked to how an owner uses bonding and dominance theories with their dog. Even some humans are naturally more passive/submissive and others are naturally more dominant/leaders in normal social groups.

    I could also argue a dog that is always choosing to follow the owners direction is taking on a socially submissive/passive role in that social unit because the owner becomes the leader/decision maker in all situations and the dog submits to the request (ie to not continue to investigate that wonderfully interesting golf cart with a man doing strange things outside their un-fenced backyard, or not to chase that silly bird, or squirrel, or cat that they don't usually get a chance to play with and instead come back to the house at the owners request).

    It is great to have a dog that listens all the time to you, especially for their own safety, and certain breeds are known to take on that passive/submissive role naturally, but there is a reason Shibas are a breed known to be proudly independent. With that you have to be ready to accept the fluidity of the relationship most Shibas will have with their owners and the fact they like testing their ability to make the decisions rather than blindly obeying their owners request without thought.
  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 3495
    @Shibamistress, >_> haha...should have saw the quotation marks. Sometimes I just overlook them :(

    @redcattoo,

    Yes thats EXACTLY why we chose a Shiba :) Don't get me started on how many times i've been laughed at, when at the gated dog park and Bootz refuses to leave because she wants to play a little longer. But its definitely nice when I have her offleash at Fort Funston and people recognize its a difficult thing to do with a Shiba, and not having to be worried about her running off.
  • BitiBeaBitiBea
    Posts: 234
    I definitely didn't mean to offend anyone and I didn't mean it as "Oh I'm so great I've achieved the impossible."

    It is just something that I am proud of and something that me and my dog have in our relationship together.

    My main point really was that if I beat her into submission Ceasar Milan style she would probably tell me to go F myself. That was my main point in my first post. Obviously I should have just said that instead of bringing up the off leash.

    You could be right redcattoo that it has nothing to do with the bond we have but I like to think it does.




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    (¸.•´ (¸.•` Kismet & BitiBea~*.
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    @Bootz, I can deal with the humiliation of the dog park when Bear decides it isn't time to leave and tries to assert his right to make the choice even though the humans are begging him to leave. At least there I know he is pretty much safe if I can't get him right away as long as I keep watch on the other dogs around.

    I only worry he isn't learning good leadership choices in environments where it could be dangerous for him to make the wrong choice or where it is socially inappropriate (ie outside our house along the golf course or in the middle of a training class). To date, when he makes the poor decision to exercise his love of running and running and running instead of paying attention to us he has had no negative consequences as the act itself becomes self rewarding. Typically for safety sake or to minimize class disruption we then have to engage in the tag your it game trying to get him to come running after us in order to try getting his focus onto us enough to work on his impulse control to slow down.

    I should add that we are well bonded and have a fluid relationship of who makes the decision and who submits to the others decision, maybe we have such a good relationship Bear is not afraid to make choices and explore his world.
    Post edited by redcattoo at 2013-01-03 18:02:39
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    Here is a link I just came across regarding a list of rules every dog owner should follow to ensure your dog knows his place in your human pack .... hhhhmmmm interested to know how many members reacted the same as I did reading through the list.

    http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/topdogrules.htm
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    I should add that based on this list I am not a good leader as many of these I don't do.
  • RikkaRikka
    Posts: 1501
    Wow, well, okay then.

    When you give your dog its food eat a small snack first while he is watching, lay the snack near the dog’s food so that he thinks you are eating out of his bowl


    That's nutty. Who would waste their time doing that?!

    However, I do 6, 7, 19, 22 (mildly, I make him sit before putting it down)...
    The rest, jesus. Talk about a power-trip.

    Also, isn't 24 common sense? The children thing, not the stupid "maintaining leadership" part. =p
    image
    Lauren, living with a 4 y/o Shiba named after a scientist. ☆
    Post edited by Rikka at 2013-01-17 12:23:30
  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 8526
    20. Dogs own no possessions, everything belongs to the humans. They are all on "loan" from the human family.

    LMAO... Obviously this person has never met a Shiba.

    10. If a dog is lying in your path, do not walk around the dog, either make the dog move or step over the dog.

    This is just ridiculous... And dangerous.

    While it was an entertaining read, I really would like to say that whoever came up with this list is an idiot.
    Bella 2Mountains 2Nola 2
    Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia.
    I Wander, I Ride
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    @Rikka, yes I agree #2 is very nutty to eat a snack, lay near food, expect him not to eat it (would be against #3) ... and I can tell you my snack is not going to be his food LOL

    @synyata ... yes #20 sure isn't a Shiba rule LOL, but #10 we do that all the time if he is in our way we just step over him, but he is very good about not moving as we kind of trained the walking over him since he first came to us.

    I also can't imagine many members here who would agree with #13 and I can't imagine completely ignoring Bear if he is asking for attention (#15).

    I think the only ones we do are #4 (we don't leave it out like we do for our cats), for the most part we do #7, kind of #9, #10, #13 (but not for these reason, it is because the bed is the cats area since before Bear), we do work on #19 for safety reasons not leadership reasons, we work on #21 but in the face of distractions not always successfully, we do #22 for impulse control training but not to the extreme of 20 minute gaps if we he wasn't successful, #24 is common sense if you read past a little bit of how it is worded, and #26 we do realize our emotions can affect Bear, but not all emotions can so easily be avoided LOL ... and that is it, most of the others we fail in one way or another.
  • JuniJuni
    Posts: 1267
    It was ridiculous and I had to continue reading and found 'positive reinforcement, is it enough' and the author is using a very weird example of how positive reinforcement doesn't work...
  • I liked the Jean Donaldson one--I'm pretty sick of the "dogs are pack animals" thing too, when there has been plenty of evidence to the contrary.

    The science daily article was also quite interesting, and has some interesting applications for puppy socialization--again, looking at developmental stages shows how important early puppy socialization is, much of which happens before a pup ever leaves the breeder. I bet some of this is why puppies from mills never seem to quite recover from their early lack of socialization. You can get them better, but they always seem to be behind the curve on this.

    eta: redcattoo, are you on the NK side too? If not, you should join! I keep reposting some of the interesting articles you find over there, and at least in the past, we've tended to have more in depth conversations on stuff like this on that side. This is another good one for the NK side!
    Post edited by shibamistress at 2013-01-19 14:19:35
  • A bit late to the party here, but I must say that even when I thought dominance was true (before this site educated me), I still thought all that "you must walk through all doors first!" stuff was bullshit. It just sounded so silly and I all I could think was that it was stupid and that dominance could almost certainly be maintained by just making sure that when it came down to a battle of wills, you, the leader, always won. Now, I'm glad I learned that was wrong too, but the point is that it does amaze me the importance dominance theory places on really stupid things. Honestly, why do people think that a dog needs to have their whole life micromanaged? Don't they care that that sort of thing is almost certainly making their dog miserable, because they never get to have fun?
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    @shibamistress, no I have never joined the NK side.

    I did really find the sciencedaily one interesting too and like you I read past the comparison and thought about the impact breeders can have on socialization.
  • You should join the NK side! Because a lot of people are either breeders, or have experience with a lot of dogs, esp. rare breeds, we tend to have more in depth discussions on issues like that on the NK side. Lately a lot of new people have joined so it hasn't been quite as based in these kind of conversations as it used to be (I keep referring people who need basic puppy info. over to the Shiba side!) but there's still a lot of interesting discussion of etology and canine behavior.

    @Notorious...yeah, even when I didn't know better, and listened to the stuff about alpha-this and dominance-that, I thought that stuff was stupid too, and I knew my dogs were certainly smart enough not to take anything seriously about getting on the bed, or eating first or all of that. The eating first thing really puzzled me.....I mean, I'd prefer to relax and have my dinner leisurely, without hungry dogs around!
  • JuniJuni
    Posts: 1267
    Agree, and why is it so important who goes through a door first or last?
    I've been thinking about joining the other forum because I'm getting slightly obsessed with Kai kens...but it is more of a long term dream or plan...
  • Do it, Juni! :)

    Kai are wonderful dogs! I love my Kai crazy!
  • JuniJuni
    Posts: 1267
    They seem a good match for my shiba, at first when I saw pictures they didn't appeal to me at all but the more I read the more fascinated I became. but so far I've only found one breeder in Denmark and one in Finland.
  • The one in Finland just had a litter of puppies. She's on the NK forum. First Kai litter born in Finland! I had the same experience as you--I wasn't terribly interested at first, but they grew on me and I became more interested.

    Then I met them at Yamabushi kennel, and that was it!
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    Is there a link for the NK side? I thought I used to see it at the top and now I don't.
  • RikkaRikka
    Posts: 1501
    http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/
    image
    Lauren, living with a 4 y/o Shiba named after a scientist. ☆
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    Thanks, I will have to jump over and check it out :)
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    NM Rikka posted it.
    Photobucket
    Nicole, 5year old Bella(Boxer), and 4year old Saya(Shiba inu)
    Post edited by Saya at 2013-01-20 19:36:46
  • RikkaRikka
    Posts: 1501
    I love lurking and reading on that side but feel incredibly intimidated to post on anything, haha. Mostly because the other Nihon Ken breeds are so new to me!
    image
    Lauren, living with a 4 y/o Shiba named after a scientist. ☆
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    I've only met shikoku breed plus many shiba inu..

    I'd love to meet kai ken, and akita too some day.. I believe there is a kai ken nearby in few areas so I might try see if they let me meet their dogs.
    Photobucket
    Nicole, 5year old Bella(Boxer), and 4year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    Here is another link regarding the same study I posted above about the socialization period differences between wolves and dogs ... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2264622/Wolves-versus-dogs-Why-wolf-mans-best-friend-Scientists-dogs-domesticated.html

    It really is an interesting read for those who didn't look at the original post about this study and gets you thinking even about how a breeder can really influence the socialization of their puppies for the long term benefit of future owners.
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    In that article I also found these stats interesting so am copying them into the thread

    A WOLF BY ANOTHER OTHER NAME
    According to DNA studies, the domestic dog is most closely related to the grey wolf.

    There is point-two-percent difference between the DNA of a domestic dog, and the DNA of a grey wolf.

    The difference between a coyote and domestic dog is higher, at four per cent.

    Domestic dogs are said to originate from wolf cubs that were used as guards by humans over 40,000 years ago in southeast Asia.

    Since that time wolves have been domesticated and used have been used by humans for hunting and herding.

    There are around 400 modern breeds of domesticated dogs.
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    I came across this video on FB and thought it was interesting enough to share as a reminder to those who may be newer to dog ownership and finding their way through a lot of information on dominance and training techniques.

  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    I wasn't sure what thread to put this in, but I thought some forum members would find this article I came across from a FB post interesting ...

    http://www.news.ucdavis.edu/search/news_detail.lasso?id=10510
  • That was very interesting, redcattoo!

    This was posted on the NK side, and is great resource about "dominance" including clips and how to interpret body language:

    http://drsophiayin.com/philosophy/dominance/?/dominance.php
  • shibamistressshibamistress
    Posts: 5171
    bump
  • Kobe1468Kobe1468
    Posts: 1587
    I must admit that this is a topic I haven't given a lot of attention to. I always believed the documentaries about wolves, and the whole 'Alpha theory'.

    Ive read some more on this topic and plan on researching some more. I did come up with one link that seems to coincide with some of what redcattoo has been talking about. It's lengthy, as will be the case on such studies. I apologize if it's already been referenced before.

    http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/mammals/alstat/


    "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened."
  • shibamistressshibamistress
    Posts: 5171
    and there he is! He's the man who came up with the alpha theory himself, and has later changed his opinion with further research. Thanks for the link!

    And the point is, it never applied to dogs anyway. Dogs are not wolves. Dogs do not form packs in the way wolves do, and have a different social order, which is quite fluid and is not a stable "pack." So applying wolf structures to dogs is like applying chimpanzee structures to humans: while there is certainly some interesting correlations, it is not the same. (And of course, great apes DO have have a lot dominance issues, and hierarchical structures, which is perhaps why humans try to apply these ideas to dogs. But very different species....)
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    Thanks for bumping. I hadn't really thought about the article I posted recently. What strikes me re-reading it is the indication dogs have adapted to digest starches unlike wolves. Leads me to want to look more at that research findings as it may bring some more thoughts on how I view long term diets with my dogs. Right now I fully support a raw prey model, but maybe with some more research on how dogs evolved to digest starches who knows ... I either feel firmer about my raw prey model or maybe adapt to something in between the raw prey and BARF models.
    Post edited by redcattoo at 2013-06-15 11:34:27

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