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Rescuing: Some important clarifications
  • I don't disagree with you at all. What I am getting at is the mentalityof the person who says it. "That dog was born either way and I saved it from a life of hell." Is misguided for sure, but the person buying it, so long as they will see their commitment through is the friend of all dog owners and should be welcomed while being "guided" toward proper future purchase/adoption habits (and spreading that message).

    I used the $200 example because if they can't find a buyer at that price it will probably be put down. If I stop harm from coming upon something, I saved/rescued it. But like I said, I did so at the expense of future animals and the parents.

    I'd rather mills not exist, but if someone made that call and got the dog anyways, what's done is done. Educate, explain, and HELP them make sure their dog is living the way it deserves to.

    I'm not defending mills in any way. I'm saying lets not make people who have mill dogs feel inferior or bad for getting them. That they are here now looking for help and guidance shows their mill dog won't (hopefully) end up in a shelter.

    I was in this boat and have felt welcome at the forum despite not always agreeing with everyone. I just don't want someone's first experience with the forum to be hostile. Save that for the 5th or 6th experience.
  • zandramezandrame
    Posts: 1106
    Your viewpoint is dangerous because while you know what puppy mills are, you would still support them. The truth is, store puppies aren't put down like that. They are discounted or shipped to a different store until they are eventually bought by people who want to "save" them. That pity and guilt are what keeps them in business. Best idea is to run the other way before stepping foot in one.

    Read this
  • Kobe1468Kobe1468
    Posts: 1590
  • @zandrame - I think in this instance he's not saying that *he* thinks that he is rescuing them but that this is the mentality of some folks who come to the forum having made that purchase. It could be more clearly articulated but I think he's trying to explain the mentality of some folks in hopes that it will provide a clearer perspective on how to educate them without alienating them.

    Maybe what's necessary in response to a new member saying "I rescued this dog" is an explanation of how rescue actually works, and the economic reality of it. Not just the suffering of the parents being bred, but the fact of how stores use the rescue mentality to market puppies even to people who should know better.
  • zandramezandrame
    Posts: 1106
    @violet_in_seville, I hope that is the case, but even after re-reading his two posts, I can't see it any other way. He uses his own definitions of "rescuing," and says he rescued his current mill dog to save him from probable death, and would do it again if another dog needed saving.

    I think this thread is a great place to discuss any further explanations of how rescue works. This thread should be required reading for new members too! :)
  • My first Shiba was a pet store puppy. I didn't have a hand in the decision, mind. I was ten years old and didn't know my Dad was even considering a dog until he plopped a petshop pup into my arms one day. I loved that dog, and he's entirely responsible for making me realize that a) I didn't hate dogs and b) I really loved Shibas. I was fortunate enough that he exhibited no health problems over the entire course of my time with him. Life in a pet shop for his first nine weeks took a permanent toll on him, though, and it was clear he was not bred for temperament--or anything besides money. He had problems. How can he be blamed, being stuck in a tiny cage the whole beginning of his life? Who wouldn't be messed up?

    I can really see why people just want to get the dogs out of there. It's hard to look right into the face of suffering and just move on. It might make you feel like a worse person for doing so. Naturally people not buying from pet stores is the long term solution, but it won't do anything for that poor dog you're looking at, or his miserable parents. What I'm saying is: I don't feel like just not buying the puppy is good enough. I want -justice- when I see those dogs. I want people found out, fined, and jailed. Then maybe they'll finally get that being stuck in a cage for a good portion of your life gives you a shitty demeanor. End rant.
  • Good link and changes my opinion a bit. That being said I was using "I" as the pronoun for all people who consider saving something to be rescuing. I wouldn't buy a mill dog again. My next dog will be a shelter dog or from a legit breeder. I just wanted to address a better way of phrasing it as to not ward off people who want to be responsible dog owners even if they were irresponsible dog acquirers. Sorry for the confusion.
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
  • If only people would change their views that owning a dog is not a right it is a privilege.

    It takes work and commitment. You don't just get a dog and then get rid of it when it gets old.

    Really people need learn to not be so impulsive. a dog is a commitment not a item purchase.

    Devil's adviocate for a second... what if breeders won't approve you? I had that problem, and I don't know why a breeder would have been left with the idea I would be anything but a responsible owner. (the knocks against me were that I prefer renting to owning and this is my first dog).
  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 8589
    Post edited by sunyata at 2014-03-13 12:43:46
  • @banjothebetadog - then you research and ask to see why. It could be something you never thought of. Call rescue organizations and start volunteering. Get to know the breed well, get references, get some experince with dogs. If you really care about dogs, you put in the work to overcome reservations that anyone has about you.

    A friend of mine was a first time dog owner, renting an apartment in NY, looking for a dog. He happened to be an associate at a major law firm, one that is notorious for having their employees work very long hours (we're talking 80 hours a week). He was looking at a breed known for being a velcro breed, with tons of energy and needing lots of exercise; not a dog that was considered a good fit for apartments. What he did before he started contacting breeders was to contact his management company, get documentation about the pet policy, talk to his firm and get permission and documentation that they would allow him to have a more flexible work schedule by allowing him to work from home a certain number of days a week, and look at all the questionnaires on the sites of breeders, and start drafting out his answers. He called me and asked about what other information a good breeder would want and what additional questions he should be asking them. He drafted a very detailed exercise and training plan, as well as a detailed description of why he wanted a dog of that breed, what he was looking to do with his dog in the future. He started researching and calling breeders, though he could only call one a night because each call would be about 1.5-2 hours. On paper the only thing in his favor for getting this breed of dog was that he was financially secure. Between his schedule, location, and experience, he ticked off every box of what you wouldn't want to see in a dog owner for that breed. But he was able to demonstrate to every breeder that this was not an impulse or an ignorant purchase, as well as demonstrate his high level of commitment. It was obvious that he had invested weeks just to do the application process and that he took the idea of owning a dog very seriously. He was able to get a puppy from the top breeder in this country, a woman apparently notorious for turning people down and who rarely breeds or places her dogs in a companion home (I knew others involved in the breed). Once she decided he could get a puppy she provided him with a ton of additional resources to supplement the ones he had already researched and had other apartment dwelling puppy owners of hers contact him, so that they could give suggestions on how to live with this breed in an apartment.

    There is a huge difference between telling someone that you'll be responsible and commited, and putting in the work to demonstrate that you will be. If your frustration that the former isn't working leads you to choose to go to a byb or pet store, rather than trying the latter, then you are either insincere or delusional. People telling you no is not a good excuse for perpetuating the abuses of the mill system. To say otherwise is facile and self serving.

    Note: I know you're putting this out there as a hypothetical. This is how I would respond to someone making the argument. If someone were asking in good faith I would suggest that they take the steps my friend did, but if they are not, I have no problems excoriating them for it.

    Just to lead this back on topic...

    While folks here understand the linguistics that would lead someone to say that they "rescued" a pup by buying it from a pet store, that doesn't mean that they think it's ok to let that stand uncorrected. Pet stores and bybs are well aware of the power of language in marketing, as well as the terminology associated with rescues and serious responsible breeders. A large part of the objection when people say things like they adopted or rescued a pet store or byb puppy is that these posters are taking a stand against the fact that mills/byb are trying to co-opt and commandeer the language used by rescues and ethical breeders. It's one of the very many insidious practices of mills/bybs to confer a patina of moral legitimacy on their exploitative practices. Don't you think that letting people know this fact is an important part of the education process?
  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 8589
  • Letting people know is very important, however, the words you choose could drive them from a very useful resource so no matter how passionately you feel, remember that whatever they did in the past they are TRYING to do right in the future. Unless someone says "I think mills are awesome and we should all buy from them!!", they don't deserve scorn.

    and +1 for "confer a patina of moral legitimacy"!! awesome word selection!!

  • Shibamistress, the original post i replied to said "how would you phrase it", and that's what I was offering =).

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