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Rescuing: Some important clarifications
  • I don't disagree with you at all. What I am getting at is the mentalityof the person who says it. "That dog was born either way and I saved it from a life of hell." Is misguided for sure, but the person buying it, so long as they will see their commitment through is the friend of all dog owners and should be welcomed while being "guided" toward proper future purchase/adoption habits (and spreading that message).

    I used the $200 example because if they can't find a buyer at that price it will probably be put down. If I stop harm from coming upon something, I saved/rescued it. But like I said, I did so at the expense of future animals and the parents.

    I'd rather mills not exist, but if someone made that call and got the dog anyways, what's done is done. Educate, explain, and HELP them make sure their dog is living the way it deserves to.

    I'm not defending mills in any way. I'm saying lets not make people who have mill dogs feel inferior or bad for getting them. That they are here now looking for help and guidance shows their mill dog won't (hopefully) end up in a shelter.

    I was in this boat and have felt welcome at the forum despite not always agreeing with everyone. I just don't want someone's first experience with the forum to be hostile. Save that for the 5th or 6th experience.
  • zandramezandrame
    Posts: 1106
    @BanjoTheBetaDog,
    Your viewpoint is dangerous because while you know what puppy mills are, you would still support them. The truth is, store puppies aren't put down like that. They are discounted or shipped to a different store until they are eventually bought by people who want to "save" them. That pity and guilt are what keeps them in business. Best idea is to run the other way before stepping foot in one.

    Read this
    http://nodogaboutit.wordpress.com/2012/08/05/the-biggest-lie-pet-stores-tell-you/
  • Kobe1468Kobe1468
    Posts: 1588
    Good article zandrame...

    Yeah, I think the problem with all of this is there are so many people who are uneducated, but with big hearts go to that pet store and 'save' that puppy. Should be a happy ending.

    But what these people aren't ready for is all the potential work and expense that comes with puppy mill dogs. So they become overwhelmed and the pup ends up at a shelter, where it's life becomes much of a dice roll. It's a step up from what it's parents are going through at the mill, but it's potential health/ behaviour issues make finding a forever home difficult, at best. Hopefully this dog would be rescued by a knowledgable and committed person, but potentially could end up in a vicious cycle of rehoming, if not worse.

    Not saying there aren't success stories. There are plenty on this forum alone. But for every success story, there are dogs suffering unimaginable horrors back at the mills. And for every success story, these dogs are forced to live the horrors again and again.

    Sorry for the rant!
    "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened."
  • @zandrame - I think in this instance he's not saying that *he* thinks that he is rescuing them but that this is the mentality of some folks who come to the forum having made that purchase. It could be more clearly articulated but I think he's trying to explain the mentality of some folks in hopes that it will provide a clearer perspective on how to educate them without alienating them.

    Maybe what's necessary in response to a new member saying "I rescued this dog" is an explanation of how rescue actually works, and the economic reality of it. Not just the suffering of the parents being bred, but the fact of how stores use the rescue mentality to market puppies even to people who should know better.
  • zandrame said:

    @BanjoTheBetaDog,
    Your viewpoint is dangerous because while you know what puppy mills are, you would still support them. The truth is, store puppies aren't put down like that. They are discounted or shipped to a different store until they are eventually bought by people who want to "save" them. That pity and guilt are what keeps them in business. Best idea is to run the other way before stepping foot in one.

    Read this
    http://nodogaboutit.wordpress.com/2012/08/05/the-biggest-lie-pet-stores-tell-you/



    This will be a great article to link when this topic comes up! Thanks!

    Honestly, though, I don't know any way to bring up the issue of what rescue is other than has already been done. Sunyata's post in the other thread was not in any way inflammatory, but some people just can't deal with even the slightest perceived criticism. And we've always been very careful to make it clear that we are not faulting people for having mill dogs (so many of us do or have had them!) but we're trying to educate people about mills and part of that is making it clear that ANY purchase of a puppy from a pet store supports mills, and is not, in fact, a rescue.

  • zandramezandrame
    Posts: 1106
    @violet_in_seville, I hope that is the case, but even after re-reading his two posts, I can't see it any other way. He uses his own definitions of "rescuing," and says he rescued his current mill dog to save him from probable death, and would do it again if another dog needed saving.

    I think this thread is a great place to discuss any further explanations of how rescue works. This thread should be required reading for new members too! :)
  • My first Shiba was a pet store puppy. I didn't have a hand in the decision, mind. I was ten years old and didn't know my Dad was even considering a dog until he plopped a petshop pup into my arms one day. I loved that dog, and he's entirely responsible for making me realize that a) I didn't hate dogs and b) I really loved Shibas. I was fortunate enough that he exhibited no health problems over the entire course of my time with him. Life in a pet shop for his first nine weeks took a permanent toll on him, though, and it was clear he was not bred for temperament--or anything besides money. He had problems. How can he be blamed, being stuck in a tiny cage the whole beginning of his life? Who wouldn't be messed up?

    I can really see why people just want to get the dogs out of there. It's hard to look right into the face of suffering and just move on. It might make you feel like a worse person for doing so. Naturally people not buying from pet stores is the long term solution, but it won't do anything for that poor dog you're looking at, or his miserable parents. What I'm saying is: I don't feel like just not buying the puppy is good enough. I want -justice- when I see those dogs. I want people found out, fined, and jailed. Then maybe they'll finally get that being stuck in a cage for a good portion of your life gives you a shitty demeanor. End rant.
  • Good link and changes my opinion a bit. That being said I was using "I" as the pronoun for all people who consider saving something to be rescuing. I wouldn't buy a mill dog again. My next dog will be a shelter dog or from a legit breeder. I just wanted to address a better way of phrasing it as to not ward off people who want to be responsible dog owners even if they were irresponsible dog acquirers. Sorry for the confusion.
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    SnowCrash11 I too would love the millers to be jailed and fined heavily also the usda inspectors jailed to for passing such crappy conditions.

    This is what gets me these mills who get busted at times have passed inspection I'm like wtf is with that! :( Hell dog breeders shouldn't be inspected. dogs are not live stock they shouldn't be bred like live stock that is one of the issues.

    Even the cleanest and spotless mill is disgusting. Dogs should not be kept in tiny cages to breed like rabbits. Even the requirement dogs should be in concrete kennels if they're breeding animals to me is wrong.

    I don't mind outdoor kennels sometimes they are needed for managing different dogs, but dog shouldn't live it's whole life in a kennel.

    If only people would change their views that owning a dog is not a right it is a privilege.

    It takes work and commitment. You don't just get a dog and then get rid of it when it gets old.

    There was some video of a miller saying "America needs puppymills." I'm like America needs puppymills like we need the plague.. We don't need any of those things. The amount of excess dogs in shelters is proof we don't need mills there is way to many pure breeds and mix in shelters.

    Really people need learn to not be so impulsive. a dog is a commitment not a item purchase.

    You'd think with the internet it would help shut these people down, but still people don't know what a mill is.

    My dad didn't know what one was. I had explain show pics and how they work etc.

    I do see where BanjoTheBetaDog is coming from.

    That link on lie pet stores tell you is a good read.

    I will say calling someone immature then next post cursing is not really being mature themselves. Yes sometimes info should be expressed more gently or maybe guide said person to this thread and leave it at that. If they want to educate themselves great if not ah well.


    I may not be in law enforcement, but I deeply care about dogs and is saddened how common shiba is in puppymills. it's sickening. I just can't imagine a dog never getting any exercise or good petting and hiking etc.

    These parent's is how they live no exercise, training, no work no anything just stand, circle or lay down eat sleep and be bred.

    I mean it is insane there is boxers in mills. Bella my parent's boxer would go nuts if all her life was in a kennel or crate never getting a walk or run.

    She gets anxious if she doesn't get her daily run and walk each day. Boxers need exercise they're like energizer bunnies of dog world if you don't spend they boxer power they use it to bug you for play, belly rubs or licking..
    Photobucket
    Nicole, 5year old Bella(Boxer), and 4year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • If only people would change their views that owning a dog is not a right it is a privilege.

    It takes work and commitment. You don't just get a dog and then get rid of it when it gets old.


    Really people need learn to not be so impulsive. a dog is a commitment not a item purchase.



    Devil's adviocate for a second... what if breeders won't approve you? I had that problem, and I don't know why a breeder would have been left with the idea I would be anything but a responsible owner. (the knocks against me were that I prefer renting to owning and this is my first dog).
  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 8584
    @BanjoTheBetaDog - If a breeder does not approve someone, they have their reasons. It could be that they feel that you (I am using you as a general term and not directed at anyone in specific) may not be the type of owner that one of their puppies would thrive under. It could be that they feel your life is not stable enough (too young, no steady income, moving around too much, no permanent home, etc.) to deal with a puppy at this point. The breeder may think that the breed itself is not a good fit for you. It could also be that there was just no connection between you and the breeder.

    If this situation happens, my best suggestion is to ask the breeder why they do not feel that you would provide a good home for one of their puppies. Most reputable breeders will give you a straight answer and will hopefully provide some guidance on how you can address the concerns in the future.

    If the issue was puppy/owner or breeder/owner personality clash you can always try a different breeder. If the issue was the specific breed was not a good fit, you can try a different breed. However, if the issue is something else, then perhaps it is not the right time for a puppy and you should consider a different type of pet or wait until it IS the right time.

    Being turned down by ethical and responsible breeders is NOT an excuse to buy from a puppy mill, pet store, or BYB. EVER. End of story.

    Edited to add: Being turned down by a responsible rescue organization is also NOT an excuse to buy from less than ethical sources.
    Bella 2Mountains 2Nola 2
    Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia.
    I Wander, I Ride
    Post edited by sunyata at 2014-03-13 12:43:46
  • @banjothebetadog - then you research and ask to see why. It could be something you never thought of. Call rescue organizations and start volunteering. Get to know the breed well, get references, get some experince with dogs. If you really care about dogs, you put in the work to overcome reservations that anyone has about you.

    A friend of mine was a first time dog owner, renting an apartment in NY, looking for a dog. He happened to be an associate at a major law firm, one that is notorious for having their employees work very long hours (we're talking 80 hours a week). He was looking at a breed known for being a velcro breed, with tons of energy and needing lots of exercise; not a dog that was considered a good fit for apartments. What he did before he started contacting breeders was to contact his management company, get documentation about the pet policy, talk to his firm and get permission and documentation that they would allow him to have a more flexible work schedule by allowing him to work from home a certain number of days a week, and look at all the questionnaires on the sites of breeders, and start drafting out his answers. He called me and asked about what other information a good breeder would want and what additional questions he should be asking them. He drafted a very detailed exercise and training plan, as well as a detailed description of why he wanted a dog of that breed, what he was looking to do with his dog in the future. He started researching and calling breeders, though he could only call one a night because each call would be about 1.5-2 hours. On paper the only thing in his favor for getting this breed of dog was that he was financially secure. Between his schedule, location, and experience, he ticked off every box of what you wouldn't want to see in a dog owner for that breed. But he was able to demonstrate to every breeder that this was not an impulse or an ignorant purchase, as well as demonstrate his high level of commitment. It was obvious that he had invested weeks just to do the application process and that he took the idea of owning a dog very seriously. He was able to get a puppy from the top breeder in this country, a woman apparently notorious for turning people down and who rarely breeds or places her dogs in a companion home (I knew others involved in the breed). Once she decided he could get a puppy she provided him with a ton of additional resources to supplement the ones he had already researched and had other apartment dwelling puppy owners of hers contact him, so that they could give suggestions on how to live with this breed in an apartment.

    There is a huge difference between telling someone that you'll be responsible and commited, and putting in the work to demonstrate that you will be. If your frustration that the former isn't working leads you to choose to go to a byb or pet store, rather than trying the latter, then you are either insincere or delusional. People telling you no is not a good excuse for perpetuating the abuses of the mill system. To say otherwise is facile and self serving.

    Note: I know you're putting this out there as a hypothetical. This is how I would respond to someone making the argument. If someone were asking in good faith I would suggest that they take the steps my friend did, but if they are not, I have no problems excoriating them for it.

    Just to lead this back on topic...

    While folks here understand the linguistics that would lead someone to say that they "rescued" a pup by buying it from a pet store, that doesn't mean that they think it's ok to let that stand uncorrected. Pet stores and bybs are well aware of the power of language in marketing, as well as the terminology associated with rescues and serious responsible breeders. A large part of the objection when people say things like they adopted or rescued a pet store or byb puppy is that these posters are taking a stand against the fact that mills/byb are trying to co-opt and commandeer the language used by rescues and ethical breeders. It's one of the very many insidious practices of mills/bybs to confer a patina of moral legitimacy on their exploitative practices. Don't you think that letting people know this fact is an important part of the education process?
  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 8584
    @violet_in_seville - Excellent post!
    Bella 2Mountains 2Nola 2
    Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia.
    I Wander, I Ride
  • Letting people know is very important, however, the words you choose could drive them from a very useful resource so no matter how passionately you feel, remember that whatever they did in the past they are TRYING to do right in the future. Unless someone says "I think mills are awesome and we should all buy from them!!", they don't deserve scorn.

    and +1 for "confer a patina of moral legitimacy"!! awesome word selection!!



  • Letting people know is very important, however, the words you choose could drive them from a very useful resource so no matter how passionately you feel, remember that whatever they did in the past they are TRYING to do right in the future. Unless someone says "I think mills are awesome and we should all buy from them!!", they don't deserve scorn.

    and +1 for "confer a patina of moral legitimacy"!! awesome word selection!!





    Believe me, we all know this. We've been dealing with this issue for years and will continue to deal with it long after this particular incident is forgotten. And that's why we do, in fact, take care with word choice, and do not shame people who have mill dogs. This issue is not new to this forum, and that's also why we take education seriously. And regardless of how careful we are, someone is going to take offense, whether that is because they don't like being called on their actions, or for other reasons.

    This is also why we are careful to correct all sorts of misconceptions on this forum, whether it is about rescue, puppy mills, "dominance" or whatever. The threads stay long after the actual incident is forgotten, and when people come back and look at these threads, we want the misconception to be addressed, not to be allowed to stand.

    Again, no one scorned anyone else. No one was even harsh in their comments (though believe me, when this issue comes up yet again, after having dealt with it so many times, I may have some harsh comments that I don't share on this forum). Just read back into some of the threads, such as the puppy mill threads, or the threads on why it is important to find a good breeder, to see how often we have been dealing with this.

  • Shibamistress, the original post i replied to said "how would you phrase it", and that's what I was offering =).



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