Our puppy is now close to 15 weeks old. We have taken her to a trainer twice. The trainer has a style that I am wondering if it's too firm. I have to say though, at the end of both sessions our Shiba was better and it kept going back to our trainer.
Basically it comes down to this. The trainer feels we've been too light on her. As an example she feels that she's nippy to the point where she's biting, not mouthing, and she also is concerned that when you gently take hold of her collar, she squirms and won't sit for us.
She feels that now is the time to have her work through her tantrums and when she grabs her collar she won't let go until she site or drops down and keeps her head lower. She never hits or even pokes the nose of the pup, but insists that she submit. She feels we've let her win too many times and that she could be a dangerous dog as she grows if we don't prove soon that we are the ones in charge.
We did a visit with the trainer the other day and really was concerned because the trainer pushed the pup to the max, refusing to back down, and it resulted in the puppy really pushing back, also refusing for quite a while before finally giving up.
I just want to make sure that we're not building worse behavior by doing this. I have seen so many conflicting views on how to train the Shiba, they all say that rewards based training is best, and our trainer does do this. But people also say that you can't let Shibas win, or they will think they run the house. So there seems to be a fine line.
Any help would be appreciated. We are concerned that the dog doesn't become a dangerous one. I have to say on the flipside in many ways she's very good. We can take her food from her without any protest. I can hold her on her back almost always without any protest. So I feel that there are very good sides to her still.
hmm, that sounds about the right behavior for a 15 week old Shiba pup. My Shiba threw tantrums on a daily basis as a puppy ( to the point where my hands bled ). The key? He was restrained. I used to hold him by his collar or hold him down and he'd throw the biggest shitfit of his life everyday. Shibas hate being restrained. She could easily see the restraint as a negative experience ( depending on how your trainer handles it ). Shibas are a very mouthy breed for the rest of their lives. What your trainer could see as nipping/biting, the rest of us could easily see as play. Shibas play very rough, and love to show their teeth. Does your trainer have experience with Shibas?
When my Shiba was a pup, I personally leashed him and just restricted where he could go to, and eventually he'd relax and then i'd give him lots of attention and love and praise for calming down. Do you really believe the behavior your Shiba is expressing now will make your dog dangerous? ( if you handle it wrong, it might, but it is very unlikely! ) Many many manyy Shiba owners go through this same exact tantrum phase with their own Shiba puppies. The only thing that will make your Shiba dangerous is if you don't properly socialize her and she becomes fearful of things around her.
OH MY GOODNESS, I was just going to ask a similar question.
I live in a very small town in rural northern Japan and live alone, although I have relatively frequent visitors to my apartment (and no, not THOSE kind of visitors...gosh, i wish the only women here weren't 80-year-old grandmas...BUT I digress!)
Sabi is definitely beginning to show his true shiba colors, and instead of taking him to a trainer (I want to train him in English for when my girlfriend and I move in together for grad school in 2011), , I've had to do all of it, which is great because we've bonded through it, I think. He seems to have gotten over the nipping really quickly (a flip flop against my kitchen table with a firm NO always does the trick), and I already have him consistently sitting to wait for me to go in and out of the doorway first, etc. He also loves to meet people while we're on our walks. All signs are pointing toward a great dog.
But what's been nagging at me for awhile is whether or not he will begin to become protective of me to the point that he might take some people by surprise. And also, since I won't be able to let him loose for about another month (the snow piles are massive here), I'm worried about overcorrecting him on our walks. I'm trying to ingrain the "heel" and "come" commands in his rapidly growing head with some (sometimes) relatively firm tugs on the leash (I don't use a choke collar), and a few times he's looked back at me with a "what the hell are you doing?" kind of look.
So basically, I'm at the same crossroads as snowdog - I'm definitely concerned about maintaining my "head of the pack" status, but since we're a two person pack, I want to make sure he'll be inclusive of anyone else who I let in, and also that he won't resent me for the walking corrections and the sometimes long amount of time he spends in his pen because he's having a little trouble being housebroken. (although, two days mistake free)!
I also want to get him neutered as soon as possible, too (he's already almost 12 pounds) - he's doubled in weight in two weeks - but the vet over in Asahikawa refuses to do it before he's six months old (four months old now). How old were your pups when they were neutered/spayed, and if they were this young, what would you suggest saying to the vet? (Fixing pets, unfortunately, is somewhat frowned upon up north here - disgusting, I know). I just think that the earlier the better in this situation, because it could avert some of the behavior I am afraid of.
While I am no expert at all on the matter, I have found that Shibas tend to do VERY well with positive reinforcement training.
Also, I, personally, would never let anyone handle my dog like that. Not even me. Grabbing a dog by its collar can be a very stressful event for a 15 week old puppy. Especially if the collar is held for however long a time it takes for the puppy to 'calm down'.
Also, check out Karen Pryor's website for clicker training as well: http://www.clickertraining.com/ She has some great books regarding clicker training and positive reinforcement.
Hope this helps.
Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia. I Wander, I Ride
I want to add this as this is something I always try to keep in the back of my head when working with my dogs, or dogs in the shelter.
Do you want your dog to listen to you because they respect and love you? Or because they fear you? I know that if I fear someone I will do whatever I can to get away from them. I truly believe that this is where stories of dogs "turning" on their owners come from. Eventually the dog just can't take being that scared anymore.
But if a dog KNOWS that they are always safe with you, and you are there as their protector and guardian, they will listen to you and respect you.
I'm no expert either, however I will tell you what my husband and I did. We never tried to dominate him occasionally when we would play we would make sure to put him on his back but that was the extent of it. I can't ever really remember Saru throwing any tantrums, and our problem wasn't so much biting as hair chewing. When he would bite us we would squeak/scream (my husband has a really deep voice and can't squeak.) and play or whatever we where doing would stop until Saru was interested in something else. By the time he was about 3-4 months old he didn't bite anymore. The hair chewing took a little longer, and we've basically got bounderies now, Saru is a scruff licker now. Over time he has shown less intrest in it, and he can only lick until we say enough. The grabbing the collar thing I have mixed feelings about. In my agility classes one of my teachers recommended that I take him by his collar and forcefully remove him from class, when he is being a blatent shiba and taking off when we were to do a sequence, it got to the point that he would run from me if he thought I was going to go for the collar. However I have had good responses from it when I remove him from the class because of his bad behavior, i.e. when he decides to do zoomies instead of the sequence before us. But I would never grab his collar and make him submit, that's just a little extreme for me. I'm all about controling the shiba's attitude, I don't force him to submit. I usually use distraction technics and lots of treats to make it seem like it was Saru's idea to do what I want him to do. Now we are not perfect, not by a long shot, he has a mind of his own and it's all about control. I guess what I'm say is this, I personally wouldn't use that method with my dog. However every dog is different and learns in different ways, and if it is having positive out comes go with it. But I would check to see if this is your trainer's first shiba and if so I would ask her to research the breed and maybe rethink her training methods to fit the breed better. Good luck.
Some of what you said about your trainers handling techniques really concern me. First off, with this type of breed you really should be careful with forcing submission, as this sort of thing can backlash and cause them to learn to react negatively in future conflicts. Think about it, how would you like if some person came up to you and pinned you down. Wouldn't you try to fight that person off as hard as you can, and wouldn't you expect that person to do it again and try to prevent them from doing it. In your dogs mind, these sort of things can break their trust in humans, and make him think that all strangers will try to force submission so he will try to prevent that through negative behavior (biting, growling, running away). Actually, most dogs who react negatively to having their collar held are usually the ones who have suffered through a bad event associated with that collar (improper use of choke chain, grab collar to drag dog to where they don't want to go).
Before going to this trainer, have you felt you were too soft on your pups? Have you felt that you have 'let her win too many times'? Do you seriously thing that all your pup wants to do is win and be in charge? Do you really have to worry about being the leader, wouldn't it be better if your dog was more your friend than a slave?
Submission for a shiba is not something you should try to achieve, they are too proud for that and will tell you so. Check out Casey's links, they are really helpful. Also, if the trainer is throwing red flags, stop going to them and look for someone better
Snow dogs states: As an example she (trainer) feels that she's (dog) is nippy to the point where she's biting, not mouthing, and she also is concerned that when you gently take hold of her collar, she squirms and won't sit for us.
-- Most shibas are squirmy at this age! Puppies at 15 weeks are all over the place mentally and physically but not in a cohesive way where mind comes before body action. Maturity is what makes it come together. This is also a time of teething so that adds to the equation. It would be best to redirect nips to a toy or using the toy for reward and attention. Teaching controlled biting through play training is often helpful. Shibas can be mouthy for a good long time. I am not saying disregard all of her advice but I would look to some other methods to tackle the problems as well.
Snow dog states: She feels that now is the time to have her work through her tantrums and when she grabs her collar she won't let go until she site or drops down and keeps her head lower.
--Based on a description I can only guess but cannot confirm if there is a valid reason for the trainers method and if it is appropriate in your case. We can not see how she is grabbing her collar or the actual dog behavior in context so we can only make assumptions. However, understand the neck area is vulnerable spot for a dog instinctively and forcing holds on the neck often causes more of a struggle. Many dogs panic and will fight being handled even further. Fight or flight is a big factor in the choices a stressed dog will make. It would be of benefit to try some focus exercises and getting responses with clicker training. Collar holding should not be associated with force.
--A better bet would be to practice (at home or fenced yard) calling the dog to you reward with a treat and slip a finger in/under the collar, treat again, and let go. Repeat the process a couple of times a day and eventually you should be able hold on to the collar longer and longer. It is my belief the collar should never be used as a restraint. Really it should only be used to guide to allow you to slip a hand under and for tags, but never to force anything. If you need to restrain use a halter or teach your dog to sit between your legs (their back toward you) at your feet when your are standing or kneeling, that way you can apply pressure to the chest with your palm to hold your Shiba in place. You can also get in a few good scratches too which should help.
--As far as sits or downs etc. know that some animals do not like being touched at all during the learning/training process. This means focus work with a clicker is most likely the best bet ..no choke or prongs etc. As the saying goes you get more flies with honey especially true with the spitz breeds.
Snow dog states: But people also say that you can't let Shibas win, or they will think they run the house.
--Nonsense! Its about knowing WHEN to let them win i.e. make it work for you .like the collar exercise I mention above, letting go after you briefly hold the collar, that is a win that works to your benefit.... Coins in the bank so to speak and you are building mental points with your dog so they want to work with you. Let them win on occasion so they do not feel forced. This goes for crate training as well, get them to go in and then let them out in a form of a tag game .by letting the dog bolt out on your terms it feels like a win to them but you are the one actually controlling the game. With Shibas its all about games!!
Corporal tactics do not necessarily develop a good team with this breed of dog and leadership in my mind is about teaming not transactional force.
Check out truly dog friendly.com and read some good things they have to offer.
http://www.trulydogfriendly.com/blog/?page_id=4
"A better bet would be to practice (at home or fenced yard) calling the dog to you reward with a treat and slip a finger in/under the collar, treat again, and let go. Repeat the process a couple of times a day and eventually you should be able hold on to the collar longer and longer. "
Practicing this also helps teach the pup to not want to run away when you want to leave but they don't. At the dog park, and other off leash situations, I would routinely pick up Tetsu and let him go. That way he doesn't get the idea that me coming up to him means we are leaving, and I don't have to spend however long trying to catch him
I agree with what everyone has said here.....forcing submission of a dog--any dog, but especially a Nihon-ken--is really not a good idea, and I believe this kind of training is really not good for the relationship between dog and human. And why? Why fight with them, when often you can motivate them to WANT to do something? That's what positive training is all about, and it is especially important for these dogs.
My GSD went through all basic obedience with me and agility, but I had an old school--ie. aversive--trainer and because I didn't know better (this was 10 years ago) I went along with it. A GSD is easy to train, and he did everything I asked, but I realized at some point that he was scared, and not enjoying the training. Of course he wasn't: when he didn't perform well, I was told to "correct" him, sometimes with an alpha roll, and it just terrified him. I'm very lucky it didn't crush him forever.
I thought I'd found a better class for my Shiba, but when I took him to his puppy training (totally different time, different trainer) they were mostly positive training, but also believed in all that alpha nonsense, and told me I couldn't let him "get away" with challenging other dogs. But he also wouldn't listen to me (and you know, he was only 10 weeks old, of course he wouldn't!) They insisted I use the halti/head collar thing on him to "control" him. he would not let me put it on, and when they tried to get me to force it on him (which I stupidly did) he bit me on the face and drew blood. I tried to keep him in the class, but he HATED that trainer after that, and wouldn't let her touch him. That was pretty much it for his obedience class--they said he was overly aggressive and not welcome in the class. (Frustrating in the extreme,right? Because how could I learn to handle his aggression if we couldn't come to class?) Force just made his behavior worse.
My point with that is that forcing him made his behavior worse, not better, and the wrong kind of physical restraint just made him crazy. (he never bit me or anyone else like that again). I just don't think you can win a battle of wills with a headstrong Shiba through force, and to try is just frustrating--and possibly damaging--for human and dog. But you can motivate them. (Though when my boy was that young, I had to really limit the number of repetitions, because he got bored too easily to keep doing the same thing over and over. Unlike my GSD who would happily do the same thing 100 times if asked!)
I'd find another trainer, or work with him on your own.
eta: I should say I have no problems with the head collars....they work for some dogs. They were great for my GSD who pulled like crazy on the leash without one, but with it, quickly learned to walk in a well-mannered way. But they wanted me to use this on a pup who was probably too young to have it on anyway, and they wanted me to force it on him right then, when he was barely even used to being on a leash at all. Bad idea.
Folks, thanks for the great feedback. I've done a lot of research in addition to your feedback, and have gone back and spoken to my breeder, who has several decades experience training Huskies, in addition to her recent years training Shibas. I'm afraid I may not have described the situation correctly. It's not that every time she doesn't perform that she gets treated this way. But let me first start by saying that my breeder, whom I respect a lot, basically backed up all of what we've been doing, with one slight change. She felt that if the collar holding trick wasn't working it may be because the dog is confused and to try a sit training technique that involves the dog sitting to your left, leash in one hand and then a gently tug up to direct her butt down, at which point you say sit and she gets praise.
The fact is that the dog is MUCH better in the past few days. The collar issue was simply that my breeder and trainer felt that you should be able to handle the Shiba without protest. They disagree that Shibas should be allowed to have their own boundaries and my breeder feels that you should be able to be mildly physical at any time. What does mildly physical mean? Towel washing, nail clipping, medicine administration, any of these things must be acceptable to the dog without hesitation, or else the dog is going to have a lot more power than it should. The problem with using the thumbs through the collar is that she was rejecting it and running away, which was causing her to gag herself. I don't want that, nobody wants that, so we're going to skip that particular technique.
My breeder further explained the reason for escalated confidence and refusal to adhere to the trainer on the 2nd visit. Basically at the first visit, the trainer was quite successful with the collar technique and the dog kept going back to her. But when she got home, she said No to us, because she was back in her house. We let her win that battle because we didn't feel we understood the proper application of the technique and didn't want to hurt her. Then when she went back to the 2nd class the following week, she was essentially telling the trainer, No, my mommy and daddy don't require me to do this at home, so I'm going to reject your use of this technique. It's been only 2 1/2 days since that seemingly failed class, but our puppy is amazingly better.
I attribute this to our refusal to allow her to bark or nip. We use a technique where we pick her up upon a bite (not a puppy mouthing) and hold her in our left hand. And in our right hand we hold her scruff and say firmly to her "No". And we hold her there for about 30 seconds until she relaxes. Then we gently praise her and place her down. We also keep her leashed after walks inside our house, around where we are. If she barks at us, we essentially barked back firmly, not yelling, saying "No!". I had a little shouting match with her and bit by bit her bark got quieter until finally she lay her head down on the ground submissively.
On walks now she sits on command as well as stops. She is doing very well. So rest assured I agree I would never use a method that forced physical rolling just because she didn't sit on command. However, if I engage her physically and she struggles, that is when I refuse to let go because at least with this dog it has proved to embolden her. She seems to take very well so long as the restraint is not painful.
I should add that we've started giving her longer walks which seems to eliminate a lot of her energy that she was using to refuse some of the physical attention.
Mentioned previously the context of your situations can not be determined by what is merely written in a forum. Information everyone provided is to expand your view on the topic.
I will say this, looking at training from on one perspective or one school of thought often leads to limited solutions or ineffective long term solutions.
Really, no single trainer or breeder has all the answers through a single philosophy, it just isnt that simple. In any case it is hoped that expanding ones view with the resources and links presented will one day be helpful if one takes the time to read them to get some value from scientifically researched models/methods (Ian Dunbar, Patricia McConnell, Jean Donaldson, Pat Miller to name a few).
I firmly believe trainers & breeders get caught up in the view that using a positive method is permissive to justify ignoring the benefits, which is rather ignorant. Often this erroneous thought is due to the fact they themselves get wrapped up in a one way mind set or believe what they know is superior without having tried to comprehend/learn more or even use the methods that they may be disregarding. They know what they know and its often just easier to push that off on everyone else in the daily work they do than rework their practices or challenge their assumptions. It works for hundreds (however many they have trained over the years) therefore it is assumed it is the right thing to do.
With that being said, try to keep an open mind as you go along by educating yourself.
Best of luck!
Snf
Snow dog you write: They disagree that Shibas should be allowed to have their own boundaries and my breeder feels that you should be able to be mildly physical at any time. What does mildly physical mean? Towel washing, nail clipping, medicine administration, any of these things must be acceptable to the dog without hesitation, or else the dog is going to have a lot more power than it should.
----I think what was written earlier is misinterpreted. No, at least for me, I dont believe that dogs should have a full range with no boundaries to do what they want either. Certainly you should be able to get all the things mentioned and you can get that without the use of physical corrections, i.e. without the scruff shake etc. is my point.
Snow dog you write: We use a technique where we pick her up upon a bite (not a puppy mouthing) and hold her in our left hand. And in our right hand we hold her scruff and say firmly to her "No". And we hold her there for about 30 seconds until she relaxes. Then we gently praise her and place her down. We also keep her leashed after walks inside our house, around where we are. If she barks at us, we essentially barked back firmly, not yelling, saying "No!".
---That is called an aversive and it is based on the older dominance model of training. It works for some things but often breaks down at other times. As you move on to more meaningful work down the road I would hope you would start developing on a greater expanded view in training that eliminates the need to do this. Keep in mind force often begets force with this breed.
--Agreed a good exercise regime greatly reduces built up energy that otherwise would provide too much stored fuel in dogs who are a handful.
we've had many breeds of dogs in the past ranging from mutts, poodles, yorkies, german shepherds and lastly a Samoyed before getting our shiba inu. Shibas are for sure quite different dogs. I've never had a more stubborn pup, but when he was young he had to learn who was the boss so we lovingly taught him. He was nippy and mouthy, but now at 13 months old that's been in control for quite a while. He loves to play, and he likes to play rough. Sometimes he needs to be reminded that enough is enough and it's time to calm down. Tug of war gets him too worked up, so we've back burnered that game. Fetching a ball is better and he loves that. I do have a complaint about him not coming when called (all my dogs always would come when called) and running away behind the couch when I try to put his harness on him to go for a walk. And, the biggest complaint of all, his want to BOLT out of the door or yard if we arent careful. For this reason I am starting him in a doggie school that trains based on positive reinforcement. I like that idea. We've never wanted our animals to be afraid of us in any way and shy away from us. I hope MoJo will learn the DO NOT BOLT skills and at the same time become a little more responsive to the come command. I do not believe in intimidating dogs. I see it done (with breeds like Pits, Rotties, Shephards) and it sure makes for a Big Dog with a REAL BIG attitude!
"I see it done (with breeds like Pits, Rotties, Shephards) and it sure makes for a Big Dog with a REAL BIG attitude!" This is interesting to me, as a pit bull rescuer. Dogs are very much a reflection of their environment. Dogs that are trained through intimidation and aggression, learn that that is an effective means of communication. Dogs that are taught that they get what they want with positive reinforcement learn that good behavior and affection earns them rewards and praise.
Interestingly you can undo intimidation methods. I have rescued many dogs that were abused, neglected and even tortured and through lots of positive reinforcement, affection, and boundaries, I have seen dogs with "REAL BIG attitude" turn into marshmallows.
Piglet was a breeder bitch for a fight ring. Do notice the cat in the bottom of the picture....
and of course there is Ruby (again notice the cat next to her) who came to us hand shy.
Actually my cat Jasmine (who is 20 years old and came to use without claws) likes to sleep in Ruby's bed in her pen, while Ruby eats her food (raw, normally venison, pheasant, or quail) and when Ruby is done she sometimes curls up with Jasmine.
So I guess I am saying positive reinforcement works.
" Dogs are very much a reflection of their environment. Dogs that are trained through intimidation and aggression, learn that that is an effective means of communication. Dogs that are taught that they get what they want with positive reinforcement learn that good behavior and affection earns them rewards and praise."
I absolutely agree with what Jessica just said. Examples, Tetsu has been trained with Positive, my sister's dog Teddy was at first partially trained with adversives (You make a lot of mistakes when you don't know better). Because of the adversives, Teddy gets very defensive and aggressive when being "disciplined". Even if you just say the word "No", he stiffens and growls. When he wants something from one of the other dogs, he will growl his way to getting it.
Tetsu on the other hand, if I say "No" to him, he backs away and finds something else to do. If he wants something from another dog, he waits for when they aren't using it. If he wants something from me (especially if it is really good) he starts performing random tricks that I had taught him before in hopes of getting it. For example, when I'm petting a cat Tetsu will sit next to the cat and give me or the cat his paw in hopes of getting a piece of cat food (which was usually next to the cat when I was teaching Tetsu not to be mean to him).
I love seeing a big dog trained and raised for fighting be rescued by someone who shows them love and positive attention thus turning into a marshmellow. Kudos to you Jessica for giving these rescue dogs a wonderful home
Calia, I noted the same thing about aversive training with Shibas....When I first started working with Toby, I wasn't entirely clear on what all positive training looked like, and there were times I tried to pull him by the collar away from something, and he always reacted with a growl. Toby also displaced his aggression: ie. if I tried to pull him away from, say, another dog, he'd become much more aggressive with that other dog, rather than turn it on me,though I knew he was frustrated with me. Same thing happened if I just grabbed his collar to hold him at the door, say. He growled at the other dogs. It became clear very very fast that pulling him by his collar (even gently) was certainly NOT going to work.
Okay, I'm reading all of the posts here about aversive vs. positive training, etc. However, I have a concrete question. I know you need to do everything to avoid a situation where your Shiba bites you. However, what do you do when a Shiba pup (8 months old) who gets jealous of other dogs, turns around and bites your hand as you are trying to pull her away from biting another dog who she has taken an instant dislike to? I know that I should have managed the situation better, but sometimes it just happens when you are not expecting it. Do you ignore the bite, yell NO loudly, put her in a time out, put her on the floor to settle her down stroking her until she relaxes (as a breeder told us to do), or what? I guess the feeling of her "getting away" with the bite does not get out of my head. I know all dogs are different. 99% of the time our pup is the most delightful, wonderful companion, but when she sees another dog as a challenge (and this is only on occasion) she can turn on us if we are trying to get her away from another dog. And, she also bit as I tried to remove a burr that was stuck on her fur. It's the moment of the bite and what to do in that instant that has me confused. I do try to "manage" a situation and NOT let it occur, but occasionally it just happens. Any suggestions on what to do at the moment of the bite? Thanks all!
I would definately say you need a good behaviourist...She's 8 mo which is still young. Maybe some opportunity windows have passed by so I would do that quickly...(We were getting out of all that at that age...)
have you done de-sensitizing exercises for touching the dog everywhere on body? what is her socialization history?
I wouldn't just accept "it occasionally happens" - She's not fully matured so you have some flexibility that a good trainer/behav. could work with.
as for your question - my vote would be time out.
PS - do you have her on a leash/harness? do you need to grab her body with your hands when she's in a state like that?
PPS - Have you worked on "meet and greets" with dogs? Are you nervous and holding leash very tense so they can barely touch noses?? (that is classic way of setting up dogs to fail...very loose leash greeting or not at all...)
I don't think you should correct a dog for redirected aggression (biting you while trying to bite another dog). I have been severely bitten by a Shiba who was in a fight with another Shiba, and I was just thankful they didn't hurt each other. Management to prevent the initial event that lead to the redirected bite would be the goal. After the event, immediately separating and removing the dogs is best, but do not correct them for redirecting to another dog or person after the fact when they are over the threshold and just reacting to the stress at that point. The time to correct and redirect is well before the dog has tipped over the threshold and hopefully before you begin seeing the ladder signs.
And just to be totally honest, with my dogs and slightly older puppies, if they do scream and fuss when I do a collar grab or pick them up and they aren't injured, I wont let go until they stop. It isn't a behavior I like or want and the time to nip it is when they are little (that's the BEST time to work on unwanted behaviors before they become habits).
That said, I do teach collar grabs with treat and praise and carry food with me to give to friendly strangers so they can play the game too. It does depend on how the puppy was worked with before. An unsocialized feral puppy or dog would bite you and totally freak out if you tried suddenly restraining them this way. A puppy from a good breeder who has been held often and handled tons, who now protests when mom and dad handle his collar, needs no more than a gentle but firm reminder that puppies WILL be held or restrained as mom and dad see fit, and they are expected to at least tolerate it.
That isn't license to be mean about it in any way, but being calm, and firm with a no-nonsense approach is fine with most Shibas for things like this.
Masakado Shiba Inu www.masakadoshiba.wordpress.com "Common sense isn't so common"
@Koji's Mom: She was socialized extensively from the age of 8 weeks. Tons of people, dogs, car and RV trips.... Let us touch every part of her, her ears, eyes, toes, feet, tail, etc. We picked her up and held her, she was delightful... When she goes Cujo on us, we are in an area with other dogs running free and playing. She plays like a champ, loves everyone. However, if she approaches us and another dog approaches us, she guards us like a maniac. We try to move away from her and give her plenty of room, but by the time I get out of the way, she is out of control. So, at that point, I need to grab her halter and take her out of the pack. That is when she can whip her head around and try to bite me. Expected. Happened today at a park. Everything was fine and then I tried to give her some water I had brought and other dogs approached and she went nuts. So, I now understood that I should NEVER bring anything from home with us in the park. We sat in the car till she calmed down. Let the park empty out, then went in again when she was calm. She had a wonderful time, played with the remaining few dogs and was absolutely perfect. The behavior is sporadic and does not always happen. So this occasional resource guarding happens mostly in a park when she is off leash. When walking her on lead (always loose), she loves to greet other dogs, happy, happy tail wagging, wanting to play, etc..
I did try a gentle leader head harness when she flipped out in the park, but it did no good,.. Neither did the treat thing to distract her from guarding us. She had a mission to guard us and NOTHING would stop her except us leaving for a time out.. When she had calmed down, we went back in, and all went very well. I hope she passes out of this "stage" and it goes away as mysteriously as it came.
I would suggest not going to the dog park or put her under a situation where she feels like guarding. Then you should work on training to stop her from guarding you or the water bowl or whatever that she wants to guard. The more chances she gets to rehearse this guarding behavior, the more ingrained it would be as guarding itself is very rewarding for her.
Please don't let her repeat this behavior until you have the training in place. I seriously doubt it will just go away if you don't first manage and then train her out of it. Most likely it will get worse if left as it is.
I've tried everything to stop the behavior when it happens. I have even worked with a trainer in a mock situation with another dog. Sometimes the behavior doesn't exist and sometimes it does. I hope I don't have to stop going to the park with her as she has such a good time when all goes well -- which is more often than not.
I guess my question here is if she only guards us in the dog park, how do we avoid the park and still train her in order to go back to the park. What we have done and seems to work is to remove ourselves and distance ourselves from her in the park, so that she can have fun without guarding us. Part of me thinks that desensitizing her to the situation by exposing her more to it might be part of the training. As I said, it is rare when it happens. For example today, when she started guarding, we left, sat in the car, then after she calmed down, only one of us went into the park with her again where all was perfectly fine and she had a great time and got tons of exercise. So, the positive experience for her the second time, I hope helped.
i dont think firm is the word to use so much as consistant...i mean you have to let them know do this not that but not firmly ..give a treat when theyre good and take away when theyre bad..constancy with that will do a world of good
If you can't figure it out the trigger and manage the environment, it will be very difficult to train her out of it. It's not so much of stopping the behavior when it happens, but more on figuring it out why it happens and then use that knowledge to stop the behavior from ever happening in the first place.
Does she guard outside of the park with strange dogs, such as your backyard or a friend's backyard? She is getting rewards (in her mind, whatever that she is guarding against other dogs and the other dogs go away), so until you can figure it out the trigger, you are just encouraging her to guard more, because it works for her.
Does she guard when you worked with a trainer in a mock situation? What is the setup? A good trainer should be able to help you figure it out the trigger.
I understand that you do not want to give up the fun of going to the park because she enjoys herself 99% of the time, but it is really not good for either her or other dogs in the park if you can't predict when she will go ballistics that 1% of the time.
If you're wanting to try desensitization, do it with a behaviorists careful guidance so you don't inadvertently flood her or unintentionally create an unsafe situation.
Masakado Shiba Inu www.masakadoshiba.wordpress.com "Common sense isn't so common"
I was thinking this too. Desensitization is kind of tricky, and can make things worse if not handled properly!
I'd also echo what Lindsay said earlier--Shibas can become less tolerant of other dogs as they get older. Many, many Shibas do not enjoy the company of other dogs, and it doesn't always show up clearly until they mature. (Some, like my boy, were pretty clear about their feelings from the tender age of puppyhood, though!). A LOT of female Shibas get a lot less tolerant of other dogs as they start to reach maturity. (Males too, but I've seen and heard of some more dramatic shifts in temperament in females). Just because she tolerated other dogs as a puppy, does not mean she will as adult. With my dogs, the guarding behaviors clearly got more marked as they aged.
So yes, do work on this with her, but understand that it's not always easy to know if a puppy is going to be a reactive adult. And if they are, while there are certainly things you can work (esp. with a good behavioralist), in the meantime, the dog park might be too much stimulation for her. Working on reactivity issues, is complicated, however, so you really do probably need help from someone with experience in this. And it may be that she will not be a dog who will be able to continue to go to the dog park. She is, after all, a Shiba, a breed known for not being particularly tolerant of other dogs.
We never go to dog parks - too unpredictable. Even IF your dog behaves, you can't tell about other dogs. My vet told me not to go, he gets about a dog a week with problem/injury from dog parks...He's just one vet.
Koji and I go out all the time with a long lead...I have a 15 & 25'....There are dogs he knows and we just go to regular parks and I let the lead lay on ground (with me holding the other end :) and let them romp, play, wrestle...with practice you can let them go nuts without tangling...
K is not reactive, but I'm just saying you can have play/social situations with safe dogs without going to enclosed dog parks with all their potential problems...
But this sounds like a behaviourist ( a very good one) can either help her - or help you figure out how to handle her temperment - whatever that ends up being...maybe she just won't be a social butterfly - She is a Shiba after all :)...
Good luck! PS...as has been said elsewhere, there is a fine line between "desensitization" and "practicing" and getting better at reactivity...
Okay, thanks all. The guarding sometimes is in our house, sometimes in someone else's house, or sometimes in the dog park. Or, sometimes not at all. Not predictable at all.
Is a behaviorist different than a dog trainer? I'm not even sure what to expect from a behaviorist. For example, would a behaviorist go to the park with me? I assume a behaviorist would need to see her in a situation where she went nuts to know how to help me/her. The original trainer we worked with had us hold her on a lead, then had one of us pet another dog on a lead. She went nuts and then the trainer had us try to distract her with "watch me" commands and treats. Although she grabbed the treats out of my hand and calmed down a little -- I am not sure that situation worked all that well. So, wondering what other scenarios a behaviorist would set up and how would they solve it. The behavior is not predictable and sometimes she is just fine sharing water, etc. Others not. Yes, the long lead is a good idea too. Especially a 25-foot one. Thanks all so much for your help and concern.
To better understand resource guarding, you need to be more observant and keep a journal of each guarding situation. Write down what you think she is guarding (food in general, high value treats, her people, her space, water bowl etc), where this is happening and who is she guarding against (only strange dogs, any dogs, certain dogs etc). Write down as many details as possible when she guards. Remember everything is in context, so the more context you have, the easier it is to find a trigger.
A good trainer should be able to help you pinpoint the problem and then come up with a behavior modification plan, but anyone can claim to be a trainer without any credentials or certification. Whether you are seeking help from a trainer or a behaviorist, look for someone that is certified by a respected organization and keeps learning. Ask for references.
I would suggest working with someone that knows their stuff, so they can try different triggers under different scenarios and still make sure everyone is safe. It will also be helpful if you can record what happen when she guards so you can review later.
Please don't try to test her in a park or any public place without proper setup and help. A dog park is a public place and you should not subject other dogs and their people to your experiment without their consent or precautions to ensure everyone's safety.
Dog parks can be a good outlet for excess energy, but like others have pointed out, there are so many variables that are out of your control. So even if your pup is friendly, you never know what other dogs/owners may do and one negative experience can really set you dog back. This is why I no longer frequent dog parks and choose to set up playdates with friends and dogs we know for safety reason.
