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dog whisperer has a shiba
  • starrystarry
    Posts: 187
    hey, does anyone else notice that Cesar has a shiba inu now
    I watched an episode of the dog whisperer "Marley and Piper" where the family rescued a shiba inu from japan and in the 3 month time span working with Cesar they were unable to train their shiba to a point where they felt safe. So he traded them dogs, he gave them one of his pitbulls and he took the shiba.
    Doesn't that seem crazy?
    but man, if he didn't take that dog i know the family would have put the dog down.
  • wliu003wliu003
    Posts: 222
    Wow that is crazy. I did notice a dog that looked like a Shiba but it looked pretty big. Is it the one red one with black markings?
  • Oh. No, I didn't notice as I don't watch his programs (I just don't watch TV, lol)...maybe seen 1 or 2 episodes. I did read one of his books though. Anyway, interesting...I know he's got Shepherds, Rotties, Pits, I think even a Mali and now...Shiba...he's adding to his collection of rescues -grins-.

    If the family couldn't train their Shiba though and it wasn't working out...sounds this was an appropriate choice...for the Shiba (and the family, of course). I hope s/he finds a good home that will understand Shibaness and have lots of patience.

    What was "wrong" with the dog?
    - Corina A. Gonzalez | Lynxiene (Belgian Malinois), Shoushuu, Kotomi & Shuran (Shikoku Ken). | Along with a Clan of cats!
  • starrystarry
    Posts: 187
    ya, its red with black/darker markings on its back, but the face is mainly red and white

    the dog lived as pretty much a feral dog near the airport chained to a zip line in japan and it was brought to the US by a couple of flight attendants and the family was going to foster him.

    Initially the family complained of his food aggression and that he bit once during feeding time and that it would lunge at dogs while walking on leash. They said they just felt like they were renting a room to the dog and he was not really giving anything back to them. (at this point they had the dog for 1 year)
    So Cesar worked with them and then 3 months later although the food aggression and walking on leash had gotten better, the dog started to suddenly attack their cat and other dog and full on bite them so they felt bad for their other pets and didn't feel safe anymore so they confined him to the yard.

    Cesar then offered to trade dogs and the family looked so happy and relieved they said they were in over their heads and even stated that they got the better end of the deal.
    Cesar's advice was "never get the dog you want, get the dog you need"

    Training techniques used on the dog was his famous "shh," blocking and a couple of leash jerks, other than that he never poked or alpha rolled the dog (I honestly don't think you can every alpha roll a shiba successfully, or maybe you never need to)
  • PLwarped59PLwarped59
    Posts: 141
    The dog , Marley, was definitely a Shiba mix. He did a good job with the food issue, but I bet those people had to work on that for a while. I dont think Shibas are a dog that would roll for anything but a treat or a tummy rub :)
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4786
    He resembled a Shiba but with a hint of GSD. I was disappointed that the family did no research on the breed characterisitcs and were so unpreparred to deal with an adult rescue. At least he is in a place where he can get the training to control the biting, etc."Common sense isn't so common"
  • I saw this episode a few weeks ago. I thought it was horrible how they "traded" him. I thought the dog whisperer was a training jesus! They tried a few things with the Shiba and then they just gave up! The people didn't even look that upset. It seemed like the wife had it in for that dog.
  • He didnt look like a full-bred Shiba to me...

    I personally think the "dog whisperer" is an idiot. I mean its good that he took the dog, but his theories about stuff are idiotic.

    He says dogs do what he does(grab their neck, shhh at them...., alpha roll them, etc.) "naturally". If dogs did that naturally, then wouldnt they actually do it naturally? Why dont Cesar's own dogs do that to an unstable dog?

    His methods are also based on wolves, not dogs, and his wolf theory is based on false information. Wolves do not alpha roll, they do not force eachother to the ground, like Cesar does. They roll on their backs voluntarily. Submissive wolves actually walk in front during travel. So the whole walking in front thing is a lie as well. Also, every little thing your dog does isnt either submissive or dominant. The "dominance theory" is a very complex system. Its not black and white(e.g. "submissive or dominant").

    So his methods are not "what the mother would do" as he puts it. His methods are negative reinforcement, punishment training. And the dogs fear Cesar Milan, and from what I've read, they usually get back to their old selves' when he leaves.
    Post edited by Jake122334 at 2009-08-01 11:49:54
  • I won't get started in Cesar. But I will say pit bulls are a 1000x easier to train than shibas.
  • tsukitsunetsukitsune
    Posts: 6468
    Awesome post, Jake. I've been reading a lot of studies done by David Mech, of wild wolves in their (mostly) natural habitat, not wolves in captivation. Fascinating stuff - that the wolf pack is more of a family unit than a ruthless dictatorship. Which makes Millan's "theories" a bunch of misinformed garbage.

    Jess - in what ways are pit bulls easier to train? How about compared to Shikoku? I have a real test of patience whenever I try to train a terrier of any type, Shibas I find are much easier for me!
  • shirapup32shirapup32
    Posts: 100
    I'm gonna go ahead and admit that I admire Cesar.
    I watched his show for a long time while I was searching/researching for Shiba Inu, and even saw a couple episodes involving Shibas. While I agree that his methods/theories aren't for everyone, including myself as I hated his book Cesar's Way, I think he does wonderful things. His overall message of confidence and leadership is really what keeps me watching (besides the doggies :) ). I FIRMLY believe in seeing what you want in your mind in order to accomplish it (much like The Secret). This is a big part of Cesar's ideaology. I also think his message of living in the moment can be life changing.
    I'm pretty sure he doesn't have much formal education in the area of dogs, aside from his own experience/research. He even says himself that he is NOT a dog trainer, but a people trainer. I actually see him as more of a human psychologist than a dog psychologist; usually explaining to people how their energy is affecting the dog, about being confident and needing your dog to trust/respect you, etc. These human aspects are what I take away from his methods, instead of the tssst-poke and "alpha-roll".
    If there's anyone on TV that has techniques I would, and have, attempted on my furbaby it's Victoria Stilwell. I love the positive reinforcement, and it seems to be the Shiba way to go.
    Post edited by shirapup32 at 2009-08-01 13:41:35
  • CrimsonO2CrimsonO2
    Posts: 1165
    I too admire Cesar for his intentions.

    If you look closely at recent episodes, you will see the shiba mix still in his dog center getting along with all the other dogs and co-existing. During that episode where he found and claimed her Cesar admitted that he had never had any experience dealing with a shiba breed (albeit mix) so he was fascinated on how he would be able to do to reach the dog. So far, no update yet. But the guy exudes confidence, yet a small amount of humility in that he still wants to learn. I think when he describes his passion for what he does, he said, "Some people like to read books. Dogs are like books to me. Each one is a wealth of information that I get to enjoy reading and learning from everyday." No matter what your views are on him as a person or his idealogoies, you'd be hard-pressed to disagree with that statement.

    If you notice on some of the episodes he does with his colleague Cherry (a food agressive pit, I think was the episode), she has a pack and a team that includes Shiba owners.

    I'm not trying to defend "everything" he does. But I watch him for both the things I agree and disagree with him on...and mostly to watch the dog. Cesar is much much gentler in his episodes these days.

  • xremiixremii
    Posts: 254
    I just saw the episode with the shiba, Marley. He definitely looks like a mix. The episodes Cesar puts out sometimes have controversy, but I feel like he does what's best for the dog. Granted, it's not good for a human to have the notion of that you can just trade dogs, but it's best for Marley to be with someone more experience in dogs. Maybe the pitbull he traded would do better in their house ya know? I'm sure being in a 2 dog 1 cat pack is better than a 20+ dog pack for certain dogs.

    I have to agree that his shows are very 'hollywood' and gives people the false impression that dogs are easy to train and so on. But I think that goes with any show on TV. It is better to do your own research than copy some dood on the tube.
  • IN regards to pitties being easier than shibas, while they are called pit bull terriers, they are molassers. They behave much more like there Mastiff brethren. I laughed reading Jean Donaldsons statement about never meeting a dog that actual worked to please his owner (vs. working for pos. reinforcement or to avoid aversives) because my first thought was "she hasn't owned a pit bull". They are VERY food motivated. Learn very quickly. And trust your judgement almost absolutely. And they truly work to make you happy. They are not nearly as independent as shibas. And they would likely be perceived by most shiba lovers as even needy. But I have said it before and I will say it again, you have never been loved until you have been loved by a pit bull.

    In regards to Cesar and those who may admire him, I would invite you to read this article by Jean Donaldson (one of my absolute favorite behaviorists and the head of what is basically the Harvard of training programs)
  • wliu003wliu003
    Posts: 222
    Hey Jess, thanks for the input on pitbulls. In the future I want to raise a pitbull too so this is great information. It's going to be a few years down the line though.
  • hondruhondru
    Posts: 529
    Cesar's not the anti-christ or anything, but Sally Stilwell is way better!
    -Heidi, with Rakka (shikoku) and Sosuke (kai ken)
  • CrimsonO2CrimsonO2
    Posts: 1165
    Who's Sally? Victoria's sister?

  • hondruhondru
    Posts: 529
    Hmm... Brain fail.
    -Heidi, with Rakka (shikoku) and Sosuke (kai ken)
  • SangmortSangmort
    Posts: 1361

    I was going to say...she has a sister?!?!? lol ~
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    @Romay Posted a full episode of this. I re-posted it here to discuss.

    This was the preview trailer I saw back in OCT 4th.. I looked and looked and coarse it wasn't airing on my show since I'm in USA.. Guess airing only on Asian tv.

    Thanks to Romay for posting this. I'm still watching it. So can't form full opinion on the episode.. Just that I felt horrible for this dog locked up in an apartment for a year. WTF!

    Even if the dog is dog aggressive you can still take it for a walk away form less traveled areas.. 20lb even 30lb can't be that bad if it pulled hard.

    Now 56lbs I could understand.. bella used to pull horribly when she saw deer, rabbit or someone she wanted to meet right away.. I could still control her and not be pulled around, but I could see someone being pulled to ground by a 56lb dog if they're not strong.

    She's now much better on and off leash since three years old.
    Nicole, 5year old Bella(Boxer), and 4year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • I too have to confess that I like Cesar's shows. I don't think dominance theory is the best way to train a "normal" dog that has the standard little issues like pulling, nipping, etc. I think positive reinforcement is the way to go for puppies who are basically a blank slate. However, I can see how "red zone" cases are different. A good number of the dogs in the Dog Whisperer show are seriously troubled and I feel like Cesar deserves credit for welcoming them into his pack when most trainers that the owners contact claim the dog is a lost cause and advise euthanasia.

    But like others have stated, his message about confidence and consistency is his greatest contribution to his viewers. I love how he encourages people to treat dogs like dogs - not people. And if people would take his mantra of "exercise, discipline, affection" seriously, I feel like there'd be a lot less unstable dogs being surrendered to shelters. At the very least, people who are considering adding a dog to their family are informed of the realistic commitment and time it takes to raise a healthy dog. I think it's awesome that he's honest about how lazy some owners are and that usually the owner is the problem, not the dog.

    In his short-lived show Leader of the Pack, he also emphasizes how important it is to be very selective about the dog you rescue - that the dog needs to be suitable for your family's activity level. To me, that's a message any person considering a dog should take to heart.

    TLDR: Yeah - his dominance methods are outdated and positive reinforcement is the way to go 99.9% of the time, but he's still doing dogs a great service by educating people on responsible ownership.
  • Kobe1468Kobe1468
    Posts: 1587
    I've posted this in the other CM thread, but will post it here as well. It's a long, detailed read, but I think it's a must for anybody who thinks CM's methods are, in any way, constructive.

    "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened."
  • Kira_KiraKira_Kira
    Posts: 2482
    To see someone train a Shiba in the way that Cesar Milan did, quite frankly, was painful for me as a Shiba Inu owner for so many reasons:

    Releasing tension on the leash does not equate to putting a slip or choke on your dog, giving him no choice but to resist choking himself.

    The dog is growling and giving warning signals while CM readies himself to correct/attack the dog's reaction.

    Harnesses cause dogs to pull harder and away from the owner??? A dog being choked will not pull, of course!

    The worst was seeing this man hit the dog and claim to be "correcting" him. How is this behavior that the trainer is exhibiting any different than a dog snapping or growling at another dog to control its behavior? It's not, it's a pathetic claim that being a leader means that your dog will not exhibit certain behaviors because it fears the repercussions/YOU!!!!

    This is my personal opinion on CM's techniques, if I did these things with my Shiba then we absolutely would NOT have the trusting relationship and bond that we have now.
    Cynthia, Proudly owned by Kira
    Kira the Cream Shiba Inu 吉良 - Facebook Page
    Follow Kira on Instagram! Kira_the_cream_shiba_inu
    Kira's Life Story & Photo Thread - Chronicles of Kira

    “Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole.”
  • Millan and his show has set dog training back 30 years or more, and I don't see any service he does to dogs or dog owners. I'm utterly disgusted with National Geographic for continuing to support this guys bullshit and abuse.
  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 8584
    +1 to what @shibamistress said. Promoting aversive training methods and an outdated and debunked philosophy is NOT promoting responsible ownership in any way, shape, or form.

    It saddens me to see that people still think this man (and his methods) are okay. :-q
    Bella 2Mountains 2Nola 2
    Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia.
    I Wander, I Ride
  • I'm torn. I completely agree with most of the comments above mind. He's outdated and his methods shouldn't be spread. But, it does seem that some of the dogs genuinely got some good out of it???

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