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  • Hey all!

    Jenny and I held a little "couples" BBQ for 4 of July. We invited one of our friends who owns a french bulldog (male) to come over. Now, usually out of the two dogs we have, Jada is normally the more aggressive of the two. Playfully aggressive.

    Pong Pong normally will sniff the new dog in her home and leave it be. The problem started though way before this BBQ. Pong used to come with me to my friends house and the first encounter between the frenchie and shiba was not so great. There was tension but no fighting. Constant growling and such.

    Fast forward today, my friend brings his dog over and IMMEDIATELY Pong Pong went into full attack mode. As a precaution, I had leashed both dogs but we weren't holding the leash. I'm glad I did because I had to pull Pong Pong away from this french bulldog and I had to put her away upstairs because she wouldn't stop trying to kill him. Jada on the other hand was all happy and whatever and they eventually played for awhile.

    At the end of the night, I wanted to show my friends my room (which Pong was inside) and I wasn't aware that he had let the frenchie down from his hands so when I opened the door it was immediate dash and attack. It was so bad that when I grabbed Pong to hold her from the fight, she was almost trying to bite me so I would let go to bite HIM.

    This FRENCH BULLDOG is probably the sweetest dog ever. All it wants to do is play play play. I'm not sure if it was a female/male dominance thing or whatever, I wanted your thoughts on this?

    Pong is normally the more calm submissive dog out of my shiba's so that's why I dont understand. My friend and his wife have a terrible view on Pong Pong and I absolutely hate it because she's actaulyl a super sweet dog. She's never shown this behavior towards ANY OTHER DOG ever.

    [mod edit: re-categorized due to addition of new category]
    Post edited by sunyata at 2013-06-06 09:46:01
  • Katsu show's agression towards other dogs when they come over. It's her house and she doesn't appreciate other dogs checking out her stuff. It's something we're working on. Don't worry what other people think of your dog. Every dog is different, just because Pong Pong doesn't want to play with your friends dog doesn't make her evil. Both your dogs seemed great at the meetup. I'm sure some of the other members will have some better advice on this, and steps you can take to prevent this from happening.
  • tsukitsunetsukitsune
    Posts: 6468
    A few thoughts
    - I don't know how Pong was socialized, but I know our Tsuki has a tough time 'getting' boxer/bulldog types and prefers spitz types (other shibas, huskies). We should have socialized her more around smooshed faced dogs with no tail as I think they are hard for her to read. She gets nervous around them, and runs away or growls for space. Our male was in foster care with rotties and boxers and mastiffs so he has no issues there.
    (Pong seemed fine with all other shibas at the meetup, if I recall)

    - How is the bulldog with other dogs?

    - How are the dogs introduced? In your yard? In your home? I understand this is a party, but its best to introduce dogs outside of their turf and take a walk or something before expecting them to play nice with one another.

    - How much exercise did Pong get before the company came? The less frustrated she is the better she'll probably behave.
    Post edited by tsukitsune at 2009-07-07 04:20:09
  • obukobuk
    Posts: 144
    One thing I noticed when reading your post was that the Frenchie just wanted to play play play... Now, that is fine if the other dog wants to play too, that is. Mochi is the same way except that I don't let the frustration escalate. Exercise helps a dog with frustration building up SO MUCH more than you would think until you actually see the difference between a "hyper" dog and an exercised dog. Anyway, Mochi has issues, especially with male dogs that want to play. If it's a female that wants to play, he usually joins in unless the female is trying to get him to play so much that it literally pisses him off and that's usually the very beginning of a fight (again, I don't let it escalate) I just walk the other way. Of course, Pong Pong would have to be on a leash to be able to do that with her. Another thing I would do is to let the Frenchie's owners know that Pong just doesn't want to play and that their dog needs to accept and respect that. If he can't do that, he will have to be put on a leash. If she will still start charging/attacking, she probably needs to let some energy to be released. A tired dog is a good dog ;o)
    It's just really hard to figure out what really triggers Pong's reaction by reading a post online...
    Other than that, you've already gotten some good advice regarding introduction on neutral territory, etc.
    Post edited by obuk at 2009-07-07 11:12:52
  • I'd suggest that Pong Pong just plain doesn't like the Frenchie- no matter how nice he seems to everyone else. I don't like everyone I meet, either, and it is much easier to avoid people quietly in public than to have people I don't like in my own house. Respect Pong Pong's opinion, she doesn't like one individual dog. Perfectly reasonable. Maybe Pong finds the other guy too intense, too cutesy, a close talker, who knows. but it doesn't matter.

    It is hard to get other people- friends- to accept that two normal dogs simply just don't get along, and they want to find something terribly wrong with one of them ("MY dog is friendly, but THAT one's just a JERK!"). But it doesn't sound like Pong Pong has issues with other dogs generally. It is unreasonable to expect any given dog to tolerate any other given dog, at any closeness, but commonly people do, and it is just bad expectation setting.

    I don't know how old Pong Pong is- young dogs tolerate others more easily, but when they get to be 2 or 3 many very normal, healthy dogs close their social book and stick with their existing dog buddies, and this is normal and should be expected and respected.

    You CAN try to reintroduce them as others have suggested, to manufacture tolerant behavior, and it can work, but if they don't absolutely HAVE to be together then I say let them be, spare all of you the stress and don't force them to deal with each other.

    My sister and I have to keep our two males apart in the house - they can tolerate each other outside on walks or in the car, but we'd never ask them to sit in the same part of the car, or to be in a room together, or to play. Because my sister and her two dogs stay with us at Christmas the dogs MUST compromise with us a little once or twice a year, but since she lives 7 hours away most of the time, it does not outweigh the stress on the dogs or our relationship with each other to desensitize them. So we gate and we manage for a few days.

    I think it says more from us to the boys that "Yes, I know you don't like Cody/Sage, and I won't ask you to deal with him at levels that you can't abide." Because I love my sister, I wish that all 4 dogs still got along any way you combine them, and I know she doesn't LOVE Sage because he is the bigger, meaner looking dog and her dog is cuter and fluffier and HERS. My point is that you are right, It DOES hurt when friends think your dog is a monster. But you know she isn't, and your confidence in explaining that Pong and Frenchhie just don't get along will get your friends over it. If they respect a kind request to leave Frenchie at home next time they visit, they will see Pong Pong's true colors and maybe change their opinion!
  • Obuk is right, your friends should respect that their dog is on Pong's territory and perhaps they should have their dog leashed as well...

    case in point:

    Shao New LOOOVES other dogs, esp the 2 labs next door. When their owner walked up with them up the stoop to say hi when I was gardening (and pup was on a leash) she actually growled LOUD. My neighbor and her dogs respected that, stopped where they were and Shao New was cool and then they all played again, in the middle of the stoop.

    Sometimes it's just that, the other dog needs to respect Pong's turf, and if he doesn't, the owners need to help him with it. One shouldn't let it escalate (the only time I saw Shao New freak out go rabid looking was when a standard poodle wouldn't back off, and seeing as it's owner was nowhere to be found we ran over before the poodle's legs became her chew toy).
    Post edited by CreamyShibaMom at 2009-07-07 15:16:07
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 2242
    IMHO, you should never expect a strange dog to enter your home w/o your dog(s) reacting negatively to it. dogs are territorial animals, it is at the core of their being to guard their territory and the things that provide them life (like you, their den, food bowl...).

    Bringing a strange dog into our home and just letting them run free would end in total disaster - and you know who would be the first to confront the strange dog? Our Shibas.

  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    I didn't really know what thread this article would be a good addition to. Even though at this time I don't have nor have had to deal with aggressive dogs, I know in the Shiba breed it can be an issue forum members seek out help for. That is why I thought I would share this article on why are dogs aggressive for current and future members trying to understand more about the issue.

    It is a little hard to read unless you zoom your browser in (or it was for me), but it was done by Victoria Stilwell who is a big voice on positive training and I thought a good addition for forum reference.
  • Just read the article that @redcattoo posted. Very insightful. I would love to know more about what to do when my dog attacks another dog at a park because of recourse guarding. What I mean is, what are the steps? How do I, in that moment, teach him that what he is doing is really wrong using positive methods? Based on the what I read in the article I feel like I made some major mistakes and I'd like to know the better way to do things but it isnt clear.

    Thanks guys!
    Post edited by Lindsayb at 2013-10-28 23:52:02
  • jennjenn
    Posts: 856
    @lindsayb I don't have personal experience with dealing with resource guarding from other dogs (Rigby used to guard his food bowl from us while eating when he was little, we worked through it though and he doesn't do it now.) But I have read through parts of these articles and found them valuable:

    If it continues to escalate without improvement I would definitely recommend finding a behaviorist to help you locate his triggers and cues, so you can catch him before he "attacks" and remove him from the situation.
    Jenn, Shiba Slave to Rigby /
  • zandramezandrame
    Posts: 1106
    @lindsayb, there is a section of the forum dedicated specifically to resource guarding. You might find some of the posts useful, or want to add your own to one of them.

    As for your question about what to do with Tobi, the key is managing the scenarios that put him on edge, and keeping him under threshold and reinforcing that his experiences are good and rewarding. It's not about strict "training," but more that over time, the positive experiences will outweigh the negative and his reactions will change. That's the theory at least!

    If you want more hands-on help, you might want to discuss your concerns with a trainer you trust.

    There are also some good books by Jean Donaldson, which read like how-to manuals of techniques to try to shape dog behavior.
    Fight!: A Practical Guide to the Treatment of Dog-dog Aggression
    Mine! A Practical Guide to Resource Guarding in Dogs

    Victoria Stillwell explained it very well in the article @redcattoo shared -
    When a dog aggresses, he surpasses his stress threshold, causing his limbic system (the emotional brain) to take over as he prepares for flight or fight. When this occurs, the cerebral cortex (the learning brain) is inhibited, explaining why it is so hard to get a dog’s attention and encourage him to learn when he is reacting, as he is at that moment incapable of rational thought. [...] Only when the dog is in a calmer state can he begin to learn again. The secret to successfully treating aggression is to never put your dog in a situation where he goes over his stress threshold. Achieving this requires sensitive, compassionate handling and the manipulation of his environment to set him up for success while working on ways to change the way he feels about a particular stressor.
  • @zandrame Thinking about it, I can actually pinpoint when Tobi's stress started and realize that it had actually taken him a while to get the the state he was in. Had I just known what was going on I could have prevented it. Oh well :( Now I know what to avoid and will definitely start paying more attention!

    Thank you for your response. I will definitely check out those references you mentioned.
    Post edited by Lindsayb at 2013-10-29 14:07:22
  • Kobe1468Kobe1468
    Posts: 1590
    Thought this would fit into this thread...

    "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened."
  • @Kobe1468 That was a great article. It definitely made me think more about what I might be teaching Tobi without even knowing it.

    To everyone else: Id like to report that Tobi is doing amazingly well. He has not shown any major aggression toward another dog since the incident and enjoys his time peacefully at dog park. I am learning everyday how to better read and understand him and am removing him from situations where I can tell he is becoming stressed. He has stopped resource guarding and now has a new doggy roommate, a Brittany Spaniel that he loves(we moved apartments). He's a confident, happy little guy. Im very proud!
  • Kobe1468Kobe1468
    Posts: 1590
    Another good article/blog...

    Human ignorance and greed...too many dogs are paying the ultimate price.
    "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened."
  • I shared on another thread about a neighbor's dog who has been exhibiting bullying behavior towards Quake the last two times we have walked together because the owner of the dog commands "Get Him" when Quake and the other dog, Desi are playing. Quake almost reached his stress thresh hold the other day, and I pulled him away and ended the "play". I think the other dog had gone from play to bullying and Quake did not like it and I do not blame him. I talked to the dog's owner today and made it clear to her that I would not tolerate that behavior from her dog and that I thought she was encouraging the bullying. She said her dog was "just playing" and I told her Quake sensed the other dog was bullying him and he was just about to defend himself when I pulled him away. I told her Quake is not afraid of her dog and has defended himself in the past when another bigger dog tried to bully him when he was living with my son. I told her that if the dogs are to remain friends then it's up to us Pet Parents to make sure there is no bullying. I do not know if it is the other dog owner is just ignorant or if she herself is a bully and her dog is acting that bullying out towards Quake. What I do know is that it is my responsibility to make sure that Quake is safe and that he continues to be a good citizen, does not learn bullying behavior from other dogs, and he is not put into a position of having to defend himself against a bullying "friend".

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