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Sleepless nights...
  • RomiRomi
    Posts: 2722


    Hello All,



     



           If any of you have a puppy and a older dog, do you get any sleep!?  The past couple of days my pups start playing at like 2am-5am and it takes me like 30 mins to make the calm down and go back to sleep!  I've been late to work everyday this week!  Luckily, my work is a very chill place. 



     Its usually Ninja who wakes up Portia, and i think she gets irritated so she starts messing with him.  Its so weird, the first couple days he slept through the whole night no problem...but now he wakes up at like 2am and wants to play then he'll take a nap and wake up at 5am and want to play. 



    We give them 2 walks a day, usually 30-45 mins each.  Yesterday I thought he would be exhausted because I brought some friends over to see him and socialize him a bit.  He was running around playing and having fun so I thought for sure he would pass out!  But no, i was wrong!  Do you guys have any suggestions on my nocturnal puppy???  Or is this normal?  He's been starting to try to dig in my carpet as well???

  • do you use a crate?  this should help set a schedule and eliminate any problems.
  • brandon_wbrandon_w
    Posts: 3433
    Little Ninja should be sleeping in a crate.

  • Ditto.  Crate 'em.

  • RomiRomi
    Posts: 2722
    Well I have a crate that i used to use for portia when she was younger.  Unfortunately, we let her develop a bad habit of sleeping on the bed with us, so now she sleeps with us every night.  If I put Ninja in the crate, I don't want to create a jealous issue between the two.  Or maybe I should try crating both of them at night?  Portia was very good in her crate, never cried or made a mess.  But i tried putting Ninja in the crate and he goes nuts trying to get out.   I also don't want to make it seem like we're punishing Portia by putting her in a crate now, after she's been sleeping with us for so long. 

  • You would be surprised that with dogs that there is not really a jealousy issue.  From what I understand what we think is jealousy is pack stuff such as wanting another pups treat.  If a dog doesnt like a crate it doesnt help them to not remain consistent and giving in.  They will learn what they need to do for you to give in.  I wouldnt say that portia needs to be crated.  Our new pup that we will get next year will be crated for probably 2 years, but Sasha and Niko will remain out as long as they can handle it.  We will always have crates on hand in case we need to get back into a routine for my ornery girls.  Niko was crated until 2 years.  They now get free reign of the house during the day and closed in the bedroom at night.  Funny thing is Niko has her own "den" under the bed.  Sasha is about 3 and is not trained to our house and trustworthy.  They need to earn your trust and faith.  Also shiba's tend to very curious  and an idle shiba mind is a very destructive one.  Get in a habit sooner than later.  If Ninja is food motivated use that to make the crate exciting.  Also possibly have it in the bedroom to help the change.



    Hope this helps and let us know what other questions you have.  That is why we are all here for each other!  Best forum I have EVER been a part of!!!!

  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 2240


    I agree with what everyone else says - crate them. How old is your Boxer? We crate all our dogs till they are 2 years old - this helps them not develop bad habits at night.



    Also, I know a lot of people let their dogs sleep with them, but by doing so you are potentially creating a pack order issue. That's the type of thing that can create a real problem if you have a dominant dog.



    ----



    Added: I am not a real "alpha technique" kinda guy when it come to training (I prefer positive reinforcement) - I do however feel that there are some things you need to do to help maintain your pack order - and to help make sure you are the pack leader. Not sleeping with my dogs is one of those - the others would be not letting them eat from the table or off my plate, as well as having them sit before they get something from me.



    (I didn't want to sound like some kinda crazy "Alpha Male" guy)



     

    Post edited by BradA1878 at 2007-12-12 19:58:50
  • RomiRomi
    Posts: 2722


    My boxer is 14 months old.  She is a very good girl.  She can be trusted to roam around the house without being distructive and she is well potty trained, she does do it every once in a while.  I crated her for the first 8 months or so, and since she liked to cuddle so much, we let her on the bed and she was very good, usually sleeps through the whole night no problem.  If we stay in bed all day, she will too, i think she is very dependent on us.  She is also very submissive and passive.



     I have not given either of them a taste of any kind of human food.  I usually try to do some training every day with doggie treats..Portia knows how to sit, lay down, and stay.   When we walk, i was very persistant with me being the leader and wherever I go, she goes, not the other way around.  So she always walks next to me or behind me, never in front of me.  Ninja on the other hand seems to always try to be in front of me, but we're working on that.



    I thought the only reason for crating was if the dog was destructive or wasn't potty trained when you weren't home.  So I figured Portia was doing so well with everything, we haven't used it since.  I will try putting Ninja in the crate tonight to see how it goes.  Hopefully ill get some sleep tonight!  Thanks for all the info guys!



     BTW, do any of you guys believe in Cesar Milan's work?  I've watched his shows, but it seems a little too easy. hahha just IMO.


  • There is so much more to crate training and I think that you will save your insanity. 



    Some of Cesar's concepts are great but I would love to see him with some Japanese breeds.  My vet highly recomends his dvd's because it is about training humans. dunno

  • hondruhondru
    Posts: 529
    Adding a third dog has made our house a lot noisier. We used to let Tojo sleep in our room, then we adopted Loki back in August and he wasn't even crate-trained, so we just let him sleep in our room, too (he's old and doesn't wreck anything, so I didn't think it was worth the stress it would cause him to try to retrain him at this point). Then we got Rakka things got waaay noisier... I think three is that magic number where all of your dogs suddenly become twice as much work. Suddenly, they all set each other off making noise over everything.



    Tojo sometimes makes little barky noises in his sleep and then one of the others dogs will wake up and make a quiet "ruff", then the other barks, then Tojo wakes up and starts barking, too, and they have no clue what they're barking at, but they're all setting each other off. That, and Rakka usually wakes up about half an hour before me and starts whining and fidgeting to get out. It's only a half hour, but I have trouble sleeping as it is (insomnia/light sleeper).



    So... crates it was! Tojo and Rakka are used to crates, so I just gave them blankets in their crates and made them sleep at the other end of the house. Loki stayed in the bedroom, since he's the top dog of the three and won't settle down in a crate.



    They're back in the bedroom for now because the room they were in is too cold. It's attached to the rest of the house like a regular room but doesn't have any heat going to it (the previous owners did a lot of cheap renovations) and the space heater we had broke. Rakka seems to really hate sleeping in the bedroom now.



    Oh yeah, and for some reason, Tojo is the boss of the bedroom now, even over Loki. He can push them both around in there. Once he wouldn't even let Rakka in there. They stood in the doorway looking at each other until they literally fell asleep - in the doorway! What weirdos.
    -Heidi, with Rakka (shikoku) and Sosuke (kai ken)
  • hondruhondru
    Posts: 529
    Wow, I sure ramble a lot.
    -Heidi, with Rakka (shikoku) and Sosuke (kai ken)

  • All the animals sleep in our room.



    Crating is ideal, but because Piglet has such PTSD from being in the pound for four months before we got her I couldn't stomach crating her.



    I agree with everyone else. But an additional suggestion (as opposed to alternative, I wouldn't do this in place of training but in addition to) I sleep with ear plugs in. Piglet snores like she is sawing wood and so does my husband! As badly too! I took to sleeping with ear plugs in, and I am a much nicer person.

  • hondruhondru
    Posts: 529
    Ah, yes, ear plugs.  I sleep with ear plugs, too.  Like I said, I'm a light sleeper so every little noise they make wakes me up.  If they lick their paws or shift around or anything, I wake up.  Thankfully, my husband doesn't snore though.  I feel for you, Jessica!  
    -Heidi, with Rakka (shikoku) and Sosuke (kai ken)
  • RomiRomi
    Posts: 2722
    Hmm..never thought of ear plugs! Thats something I will have to try. But since i don't have any ear plugs handy right now...ill try the crate. People aren't joking when they say raising a dog is like a child! I feel like i just had a newborn!
  • hondruhondru
    Posts: 529
    If only you could put newborns in crates, lol.
    -Heidi, with Rakka (shikoku) and Sosuke (kai ken)
  • RomiRomi
    Posts: 2722
    hahaha!
  • grandemugrandemu
    Posts: 232


    We use crates when our dogs are puppies, and if they need them when they get older. Jack actually likes to stay in his crate - the door can be open, and he can come out and lay anywhere, and he'll stay in the crate... it is a big one though - we could fit 2 dogs in it. The crating might not help with sleep for a while. Sora still cries in her crate, although it is finally getting less (2 weeks later), and she does still have temper tantrums. We tried her in the room at first, and she was noisier - I had ear plugs, and that just reduced the noise enough that it wasn't painful. She's actually a lot more settled in the living room. We have an air cleaner out there, she might like the humming noise. We always feed Sora in her crate, give her ~15 min, or when she's done eating, then take her outside (if she's quiet...never let the dog out of the crate - barring an emergency- if they're crying. They'll associate crying with freedom, and that's a hard thing to make them forget).



    I know a lot of people don't like Cesar Milan, but I think the theory behind some of his counseling has merit. My dog training style is from taking ideas from multiple trainers. You can watch Cesar, and filter through his advice. If it doesn't make sense to you, don't do it. But, sometimes the way he explains things can put a dog's behavior in another perspective. Gotta go to work now :-(


  • Very good addition Grandemu, forgot about the not letting them out when crying.  It has been so long since crate training I forgot that tip.



    When Sasha sleeps on Chad's side of the bed I try to play a game...which one is the one snoring.  I still havent figured it out.  Gratefully sleeping noises dont bother each dog because that is a frequent.  Sasha whoops in her sleep, it is the cutest thing. 

  • brandon_wbrandon_w
    Posts: 3433


    Cesar has some good advice, especially at it's most basic.  Train your dog, exercise your dog, and love your dog.  There are a lot of people who only do the last thing and wonder why their dog is an uncontrolable mess, but they still love it.  Cesar uses some methods I don't agree with and some I do.  However there is never enough shown on his show for you to know exactly what he is doing.  I also think that he really understands the body language of dogs and how to work with them (in most cases anyhow).  He is more in-tune with dogs than the average person, some people just are, and therefore he can get results in a shorter time that the owners of the dog will not be able to maintain until they get better with dogs in general.



    Nemo is 4 and still sleeps in a crate, it's a warm safe place for him, and it gives the cats some hours of relaxation where they don't need to be worried about being chased.

    Post edited by brandon_w at 2007-12-13 11:00:13

  • *SIDE NOTE*



    Has anyone else watched the Divine Canine on Animal Planet? It is a "dog whisperer" type show only with the Monks of New Skete with whom I tend to agree with more often the good ole Cesar (although he has done a lot for improving pits reps). One thing I like about the monks show is they emphasize that they work with the dog DAILY for TWO months and then have the owners work as consistently with their dog. It is a much more realistic portrayal of teaching a dog anything.

  • RomiRomi
    Posts: 2722


    *UPDATE*



     So last night around 10pm I started making the crate comfy for Ninja,  after I was done putting in his bed and some blankets, he went right in a fell asleep!  I was so stoked!  Before I went to sleep around 12pm, I went and closed the crate door.



    *1:30AM*



         I started hearing a lot of movement...and then little cries.  I said "shhhhh, no!" and he was quiet.  5 mins later...LOUD SCREECHING CRIES for 20 mins go on....I couldn't take it, so I took him and portia out to go to the bathroom.  They both went.  Brought them back up and put Ninja back into the crate.  10 minutes later, more loud screeching cries.  I don't think my boyfriend could handle it, so he let him out of the crate (i know bad thing to do).  But after that, he found a nice spot under the bed and slept through the night.



     I got more sleep last night and got to work on time!  But I know that letting him out of the Crate was a big mistake.  How do you guys handle your dog when they are crying non-stop in the middle of the night?  Any other suggestions? 



     

  • hondruhondru
    Posts: 529


    Monks of New Skete have a show?  I need to get a satellite dish!  We don't even get TV...



    Anyway... honestly, what I do about the squeeling is I put them somewhere I can't hear them very well and just wear ear plugs.  I make sure they have everything they need - they are fed, watered, and toileted before bed, give them something to chew on and after that I think it's just a matter of them getting used to it.  Some may disagree, but I think it's just different for them and they just need to adjust. 

    -Heidi, with Rakka (shikoku) and Sosuke (kai ken)
  • Patience and consistency.  Again, dont open when any noises are being made and they need to earn their way out AKA sit, stay.  It is very hard but even more important.  Ignoring, not responding and not comforting is also important.  Niko would fuss once and a while and we wouldnt respond in any way and she would eventually stop.  She just wanted some attention and hoping to get us on her schedule.
  • kwyldkwyld
    Posts: 506
    Use shaker cans.  I used to chuck shaker cans at News when he would scream in his crate.  He would be so surprised and flabbergasted there would be no more screaming.  And eventually you don't have to throw them, you can just set one on your nightstand and jingle it a little bit when they start whining and they remember the scary thing hitting the front of their crate and they quiet right down.  That probably sounds mean in a way, but hey it works and it's not hurting them.   
  • Spray bottles work too.  Unless you are like my husband and get Niko to think it is a game to catch it in her mouth...UGH!
  • kwyldkwyld
    Posts: 506


    Spray bottles work on Taj and Kohji, News thinks it's water fun playtime!!

  • RomiRomi
    Posts: 2722
    Well here's an update...The other day he peed in his crate (while he wasn't in there). He just walked inside and pee'd! I don't know if this is him telling me "NEVER PUT ME IN THERE AGAIN" or what? So that I had to wash all the blankets inside and now he has a new sleeping spot...UNDER THE BED. He goes so far in I can't get him out! So the past couple of days I haven't put him in his crate but he is sleeping through the night under the bed. Should I let him continue with this? It doesn't bother me where he sleeps, as long as he sleeps!

    During the day though, when he naps...he sleeps in the crate...weird? I leave the doors on the crate open so he can go in there whenever he wants. Its weird that he naps in the crate during the day but at night he sleeps under the bed.

    On to socializing...
    I had a BBQ today and had about 10 people over. I brought Ninja out to meet them and he ran right back upstairs! I took him down again and took him to each person to get acquainted...but right when I put him down he went straight upstairs again. A couple hours went by and I checked up on him and he was sleeping under the bed. He woke up so I took him downstairs to go to the bathroom. He went, and then ran right upstairs again...One of my friends really wanted to see him so he went to my room and looked under the bed and he said when he got close to him Ninja started to growl at him. Anyone ever had this problem with their puppy???

  • How many people were at the bbq?  Maybe he went from 0-20 with people and it was a bit overwhelming, especially in his home.  I would start small and have maybe 1-2 friends over at a time or even take him to a friends house which to him would be neutral territory.



    With the sleeping, in my mind routine is key.  If he continues to do the same thing I would leave it.  With "pack" order it is best for you to choose where he sleeps and so on but as long as you dont let other things slide I dont think that he will be "damaged" per se.  He does need to learn that you are in charge and what you say goes and he cant manipulate or bend it.  I would keep an eye on making sure he doesnt pull things under the bed to destroy them...this from a under the bed shiba.  Niko pulls so many things under there when she is playing and with a king size bed it is hard to pull them out and then it gets annoying hearing it at night.



    Tongue out

  • brandon_wbrandon_w
    Posts: 3433


    A puppy Shiba hiding from a large group of people is not that strange.  It's taken years for Nemo to feel comfortable around that many people.  And by comfortable I mean that people do not try to pet him, stare at him, or approach him.  He will happily sit underneath a table (I think that he thinks no one can see him) or sit at my feet at the couch, but that is the extent of it at this point.  Maybe someday people will be able to approach him.



    You are lucky enough to have Ninja as a pup.  Keep trying, but do not force.  If he goes back up stairs, let him be.  When you have him down around people, give each person a handful of yummy treats so they can throw some treats at him, or he can take them from their hands.

  • RomiRomi
    Posts: 2722


    There was about 10 people over.  When i first brought him down, I was holding him and took him to each person and let him sniff them.  When we were in the front yard, I closed the door to the house so he wouldn't run back inside (because i wanted him to handle his business).  I was out there with a few people and one of my friends 14 month old daughter.  After he went to the bathroom he would go up to the 14 month and let her pet him....but when an adult would come, he would run away.  I noticed this at my parents house as well.  I brought him over there and my 18 month old nephew was there, and I gave the 18 month Ninja's leash and they were walking together.   He seems very sweet to young children...but seems very afraid of adults.



     



    I will try taking him to my friends homes...that is a good idea.  I never thought about the treats...thats a good idea too!  There is nothing under our bed...so i don't have to worry about him playing with stuff under there at night.  I'll keep working on it though....thanks for the advice guys!  Its so nice being able to get advice and information from other people who've been in the same boat.  Im so happy i stumbled upon this forum!



     



    Thanks a Bunch!

    Post edited by Romi at 2007-12-17 14:46:56

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