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Puppy to Adult color progression
  • ZinjaZinja
    Posts: 200
    Hi,

    I will be getting my Shiba Inu puppy in a few weeks and would like some help to determine the adult Shiba Inu's coat color.

    I noticed on a few of the member's puppy/adult pictures that the Black markings on the sides of the muzzle disappears as the puppy grows older. Has anyone else's Shiba Inu demonstrated this? Does the majority of the darker colors fade?

    I know this may sound picky, but I would perfer not to have the black markings on the cheeks and underside, but rather Urajiro. I have three dogs with a black mask and would like the Shiba to be unique.

    Before and after pictures would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

    -Joe

    [changed category ~mod.]
    Post edited by curlytails at 2013-06-17 12:28:36
  • NekopanNekopan
    Posts: 403
    Almost all Shiba pups are born with black muzzles. It fades as they grow older. It's almost impossible as a pup to see how the urajiro will turn out. It's also difficult to judge which will be reds and which will be sesame. I suggest if you want a red with good urajiro, pick from a breeding in which the parents demonstrate good urajiro.
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4784
    By 18 months the black mask will usually fade out, BUT, you can better tell by looking at older siblings, parents and grandparents. If the breeder has a lot of adult dogs with black masks (undesirable in conformation), there is good chance your pup will retain a black mask as well. I think sesame dogs are allowed to have more black on their faces, maybe a little on the sides of the muzzle and under the chin without fault, but it looks ugly on a red (from a conformation standpoint). Sometimes you see a completely black muzzle and black sprinkle all over the face on an adult which I think at this point breeders don't want in their programmes. Again, it's just a variation in colour that usually fades as they age.

    The 1st pic is Beebe at about 4 months, it's poor quality, but you can see a little of her mask. She had quite a dark mask as a baby. Short of counting her sesame hairs, I guess she is a pet quality red sesame (I still want to call her Dirty Red).
    The next pic is her just before Thanksgiving at 16 months, she still has a bit of black under her chin."Common sense isn't so common"
    Post edited by lindsayt at 2008-12-02 12:39:47
  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 8294
    Nola had an almost completely black mask when she was born, it has faded, but is still prominent.

    Nola at about 9 or 10 weeks:
    Photobucket

    Nola recently at about 6 months:
    image
    From Family Photo Shoot - 23 Nov 2008


    It will fade more as time goes on. But some will probably remain under her chin since she is such a dark sesame.
    Bella 2Mountains 2Nola 2
    Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia.
    I Wander, I Ride
  • brandon_wbrandon_w
    Posts: 3433
    The black on the muzzle tends to fade, especially on Shibas that are Red and not at all Sesame or "Dirty" Red.

    Here is an older picture of Nemo and Turi, might be my oldest picture of the two. They are over a year and their muzzles are still kind of dark, especially Turi.
    Nemo and Turri scared

    A very recent pic of Nemo:
    Nemo Fall - -6006

    And Turi:
    N-T-W 7-08 --12

    They are both a bit over five now.

    A note on that first picture, it was my first weekend with Nemo, and my friends had adopted Turi about two months earlier. They were so excited when they saw each other at the dog park. They were not at all excited to be leashed and posed in a picture together.
  • Guinness at 3 or 4 weeks
    Post edited by ILuvMy2Shibas at 2008-12-02 11:43:43
  • Guinness about 2 weeks ago i've notices that his is starting to turn white, but his black on his snout is almost gone!!!
  • CrimsonO2CrimsonO2
    Posts: 1165
    Ichi's coat very much reflects everyone's sentiments here. I think his muzzle will fade but I'm keeping an eye out for the black underneath his chin because it's still quite strong.

    I'm uploading 4 pictures to show Ichi's progression from 4 weeks, 8 weeks, and then 2 shots at 15 weeks to show how different his coat looks after blowing the puppy coat.

    You can see the black bar/hash mark on his tail in the last pic (Guess the Nihonken clue).
    Post edited by CrimsonO2 at 2008-12-02 12:21:54
  • tobyshibatobyshiba
    Posts: 1121
    Photobucket

    That was as dark as Toby's muzzle ever got. A few weeks later, we brought him home ( 8 weeks old ) and it was gone.

    And this is him now; ( 11 months old )
    Photobucket
    Photobucket
    Post edited by tobyshiba at 2008-12-02 12:25:37
  • BradA1878BradA1878
    Posts: 2240
    With Nihonken puppies, I have noticed that they are born with a very high contrast ratio and then, as they mature to adults, the contrast ratio of their coats gets reduced.

    So if a puppy has distinct markings, they will probably keep those markings but they will not be as easily seen in the adult dog.

    ----
    Post edited by BradA1878 at 2008-12-02 15:36:06
  • Miso didn't have a whole lot of black even as a pup. He has a bit on his face and at the tip of his tail.

    Miso at 12 Weeks old
    image

    Miso at one year
    image
  • ZinjaZinja
    Posts: 200
    This thread has helped me greatly! I thought there was something wrong with the parents because most of the puppies had the unfavored black markings, but didn't want to ask.

    Thank you all... I hope my shiba will be as beautiful as everyone's doggies!
  • It will fade.
    Niko at 3/4 weeks
    Our ADORABLE puppy!
    Niko at 6 weeks
    Photobucket
    Niko at 1 year
    No I AM a big dog too!
    Niko now
    Photobucket
    Post edited by MommyofNiko at 2008-12-04 23:07:01
  • agfiu305agfiu305
    Posts: 9
    Hey guys, our shiba inu, Niko, just went through his first coat blow. I had a couple concerns i wanted to get your opinions on. Niko is 4 1/2 months now (we live in Miami, FL, which could explain the early shedding). when he was blowing his coat he had holes all over the place where the hair was falling out. we took him to the vet and he told us it was just the shedding. Surely enough the holes all filled out and his coat is looking full and plush (we also added salmon oil to his grain free puppy food).

    when his coat filled out it came in really dark, he is no full of black hairs that he did not have before. he always had a dark spot of hair on his tail but iv read this is normal. however his coat was turning really red and all of a sudden he has black hairs all over his body except for his head and undersides. we were just wondering if you guys thought he would be a red sesame? or if this is just a phase and his red coat will come back after he finished blowing his puppy coat around 8 months

    this is his coat now
    photo 20130616_203724_zpsb807a366.jpg

    and this was before he blew his coat
    photo IMG_0168_zps83b2111d.jpg

    what do you guys think?

    thank you all

  • Cute looking pup!
    I'd say he's going to be sesame. Molly had very light hair when we got her and it's got darker and darker has time went by. And sesame are the best :P
  • zandramezandrame
    Posts: 1088
    @gfiu305,

    That's pretty normal to see darker hairs after a coat blow. Without the undercoat the guard hairs will show more. Dirty reds have a sprinkling of black. He will likely look more red again after it grows back.

    http://www.shibainuforum.org/forum/discussion/6768/weird-coat-changes/p1

    Doesn't mean sesame. Sesame is unmistakable and they would be much darker all over and when they are born. There are many other threads on coat colors and what is a true sesame.
  • Okay I looked a bit deeper and I'd say @zandrame is right. I have a question for you @zandrame tough. When my girl was born, she was red but lot darker than her red sister. Is she just 'dirty red' or might she be sesame?


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  • RikkaRikka
    Posts: 1501
    @agfiu305 - I dunno, but now I want to steal Niko. >_>
    image
    Lauren, living with a 4 y/o Shiba named after a scientist. ☆
  • EthosEthos
    Posts: 372
    When Akuma blows his coat he becomes much darker. most of his back becomes black when he is actually red sesame.
    Niko looks red to me.. very cute by the way :)
  • zandramezandrame
    Posts: 1088
    @Molly_Shibette, I can't see the photo for some reason, but from the ones in your intro thread, I'd say since Molly doesn't have any black on her head, she is dirty red (sashige). Sesames will have noticeable black hairs throughout their coat, including the head.

    This topic, sesame vs dirty red, gets discussed a lot. See -
    http://www.shibainuforum.org/forum/discussion/9733/red-vs-red-sesame-opinions/p1
    http://www.shibainuforum.org/forum/discussion/11435/any-guesses-on-how-red-light-or-dark-he-will-be-as-an-adult/p1

    For the thread, I'll show some pics of my own sashige boy's color progression -

    7 weeks
    image

    3 months
    image

    4 months
    image
    image

    5 months
    image

    6 months
    image

    8 months (blowing coat)
    image

    9 months
    image
  • tatonkatatonka
    Posts: 1210
    Dang. Every time I'm in a thread on this forum and I skip @zandrame's name on top of the post, then I see pictures.. hey look, somebody posted pictures of my dog. Oh wait a minute :P
    Monkey!
  • MikoMiko
    Posts: 225
    Miko started out darker and got really light as he's aged. Maybe its just from the coat blow and will lighten up afterwards when the undercoat comes back in.

    Here's a pic for reference, top is him at 3 and a half months, bottom is him at a year and a half old.
    image


    7 months on top, 1 year and 5 months bottom
    image
  • Ginger started out white as a ghost.
    But she bloomed a bit of color as shes gotten older.

  • agfiu305agfiu305
    Posts: 9
    Thank you guys!

    This forum is a god-send for a first time Shiba owner. love the pics bdw
  • BayBay
    Posts: 58
    I believe this is the relevant thread!
    Though I don't have the progression yet... just thought I would see if anyone had any guesses as to his final coloration.
    Anyone?


    This is Griffin at 4 weeks, will be getting him on the 8th.


    image

  • jennjenn
    Posts: 856
    @bay Looks like a red to me, I would guess he will lighten up a lot but may retain a bit of the darker fur on the tail (Looks like that's the dark bit on the lower right?)

    What color are his sire/dam?

    Here's Rigby at a similar age:
    Untitled

    At 8 weeks:
    Untitled

    At 16 weeks:
    Rigby & his Raccoon

    Yesterday (11 months):
    Untitled
    Jenn, Shiba Slave to Rigby / http://hellorigby.com
  • BayBay
    Posts: 58
    @Jenn
    Rigby is a gorgeous red! Thanks for the photos!


    Both Griffin's parents are reds, his sire does have a little brown/black on his back and tail end.


    This is his dad.


    image


    and this is his mom with the litter at 5 days.


    image


    It amazes me in some cases how light the shibas coat becomes, though I have never seen it first hand.... yet!

  • With Kuma I think the black face faded pretty quickly. Today he got some black hairs in between the red, but you can't really see them unless you try

    9 days:
    photo Darwin9dg.jpg

    16 days:
    photo Darwin16dg.jpg

    26 days:
    photo Darwin26dg.jpg

    39 days:
    photo Darwinhode139dg_zps8fa3698b.jpg

    The day I got him, 10 weeks old:
    photo DSC_0062.jpg

    Today:
    photo 21312_10200643809832886_1951648927_n_zps5fbf82fa.jpg
  • ShibaLoveShibaLove
    Posts: 554
    @Bay Griffin looks a lot like @Kobe1468 4 week photos. Here is another coat color thread and the picture I am referring to:
    http://www.shibainuforum.org/forum/discussion/comment/191646#Comment_191646

    Griffin will probably be a red with some black like his papa. He is quite dark but he is so young he will probably loose most of it. He is super cute!
  • BayBay
    Posts: 58
    @ShibaLove Thanks for the link! It's quite surprising how much the color can change, I've only ever had cats and they are pretty constant with their colors from kitten to adult. Though maybe the shiba is unique is how seemingly "drastic" it can be. :)

    I think he will look like his dad too, but really, as long as he's healthy and happy it doesn't really matter. ^-^ It's just really fun and exciting to speculate on. I will post more pictures when I get him. Or before, I'm sure my breeder will be sending more shortly, especially now that we have our guy picked out.
  • Kobe1468Kobe1468
    Posts: 1587
    Here's a fairly recent pic of Kobe(probably around a year old). His markings are similar to your pups Sire.
    Photobucket Pictures, Images and Photos

    So red sesame(dirty red), or could be red.

    But as you said, healthy happy with a great temperment is what's important!!
    "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened."
  • tatonkatatonka
    Posts: 1210
    Kobe is a nice stocky dude. I wish Tatonka was a bit stockier, he is so skinny. He is 3 months away from 2 years old.

    image
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    Monkey!
  • @ Bay - I believe your pup and mine share the same sire. That's "Zeus" right? Ammy's dame is a red sesame, so she is now a sesame too. I hope I post these pictures right. As you can see she has a full black mask and she's slowly losing it. As for the coat color, I find some indoor pictures make her look really blond but when she's outside she is much darker and more red.

    Here's her at 5 weeks old.


    Untitled

    And her at 6 months

    Untitled

    And her yesterday at 10 months

    Untitled
  • BayBay
    Posts: 58
    @Wannashiba ~ You are correct! Zeus is his papa, his Mom is Pat-Cee. ^-^
    Yay for half-siblings!
    Ammy is gorgeous! Thanks for the pictures.
  • @ Bay - I can't wait to see more pictures of Griffin.
  • BayBay
    Posts: 58
    @Wannashiba - here are a couple more, he's about 5 weeks here. ^-^ Looks like he's lightening up a bit but I can't be sure. He's so adorable with his one little flop ear.


    image


    image


    I am getting beyond excited!

    Post edited by Bay at 2013-10-24 15:51:13
  • Griffin is absolutely adorable. Yes, he looks lighter. I can definitely see the heart shape face coming through...love it!
    Doreen takes such a good care of her pups, she'll have Griffin crate-trained and mostly house-trained by 8 weeks. Ammy only had 3 pee accidents inside the house and that was only best we didn't know she was sitting at the door waiting for us to take her out. I'm so excited for you too. Brings back so many happy memories for me! :)
  • @Bay - I didn't show you earlier but by the time Ammy came home at 8 weeks old. She looks like this.

    Ammy at 8 weeks old, ready for her new home

    and the day she came home

    Ammy 1st day home - Just landed and feeling relieved she's made the ride home.
    Post edited by Wannashiba at 2013-10-24 17:53:36
  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 3450
    @Wannashiba I'm too lazy to look it up for you but dirty red and sesame are different...So please look up the threads to know the difference :) Dirty red is red with black spots and sesame...well those are rare and are totally different. @Hammond has a sesame shiba

    Edit:: I guess people used Red sesame(dirty red) as well on top of regular Sesame **confused**
    Post edited by Bootz at 2013-10-24 18:06:04
  • Thanks for the tip Bootz. I'll try to remember to use the right term next time.
  • Baby Tira (finally got baby pics from her breeder when she was 1 month old :D):

    image
    Uploaded with ImageShack.com

    image
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    Adult Tira:

    image
    Uploaded with ImageShack.com

  • BayBay
    Posts: 58
    @wannashiba - A lot of dark came in on Ammy from when she was a light little pup, it's neat how that happens. Super cute!
    Doreen has been great. Always updating us, answers all my questions, and I know she genuinely cares for every single pup she helps bring into the world. Couldn't of asked for better and I'm super happy with my choice in breeder.

    @sophiahan8 - omg Tira is such a cute little fluff! I love the longer haired shibas, so pretty.
  • Kira_KiraKira_Kira
    Posts: 2482
    It's so fluffy, I'm gonna die!!!!!!!!
    Cynthia, Proudly owned by Kira
    imageimage
    Kira the Cream Shiba Inu 吉良 - Facebook Page
    Follow Kira on Instagram! Kira_the_cream_shiba_inu
    Kira's Life Story & Photo Thread - Chronicles of Kira

    “Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole.”
  • BayBay
    Posts: 58
    Another picture of Griffin, this time with his litter mates.
    He is the third from the left. The one on the far right is his sister, she's looking like a definite red. I had a choice between her and Griffin and we went with our little man.
    They are almost 6 weeks here, photo taken today.



    image


    They are getting heavy apparently and only nursing once a day now from their momma. Their first vet visit is on the 6th, and then Griffin will be flying to me on the 8th hopefully. =)


    Counting down the days and getting super excited, omg.

  • Sweet!!! They are chunky especially the 2nd one from the left.
    Post edited by Wannashiba at 2013-10-29 17:03:24
  • jennjenn
    Posts: 856
    daww so cute!
    Jenn, Shiba Slave to Rigby / http://hellorigby.com
  • Kiba0713Kiba0713
    Posts: 259
    I feel like I havent seen as much written about B&T color changes as with reds. Have any B&T owners noticed changes in their shibas coat as they age? Kiba at 4 and a half months is starting to get some white on his paws where they were previously all tan, and a little bit of white on his tan "eyebrow" spots, which also seem to be extending over his eyes in a brow shape, just a subtle amount of tan. He also has some white showing through on the sides of his face and neck that wasnt there before, peaking through the black. His dad is a black and tan and his mom is a cream. I wonder if his markings will continue to change a lot.
  • RikkaRikka
    Posts: 1501
    I've seen more white around Sagan's face and chest, but that's about it. I haven't seen any significant changes.

    image

    (Sagan at 6 weeks)

    image

    (Sagan at 1.5 years)
    image
    Lauren, living with a 4 y/o Shiba named after a scientist. ☆
  • Bella's muzzle was very dark as a pup and she has lightened up alot

    This is her baby pic from the breeder.
    photo Bellababy_zps46de4cca.jpg

    This is her last week, just a little over a year old now.
    photo Bellanow1_zpsfcd955c6.jpg

    photo bellanow_zpse1d09779.jpg
    Post edited by bellatheshibainu at 2013-11-22 15:30:51
  • Kiba0713Kiba0713
    Posts: 259
    @Rikka Oh yeah he definitely has more lightness around the eyes than in the puppy pic. Which is a little too adorable :)
  • Sagan has to be the cutest Shiba pup i've ever seen.. hes got a bobble head thing goin' on..
    image

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