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Food / Nutrition
Raw/Cooked Bones Splinter Test
So when I first started feeding raw to Kyubi, my biggest concerns were:
1. Bacteria e.g. salmonella or e.coli,
2. His ability to digest bones that were partially chewed in his less acidic kibble-accustomed stomach.
3. He inhales food as if it's his last meal on earth and,
4. His baby teeth wouldn't be able to crunch through any bones tougher than chicken ribs.
I sometimes gave him oxtail bones to chew on for teeth-cleaning (which he loved) but even with a watchful eye, he gulped a half-eaten, meat-covered bone faster than I could take it away! To my horror, he didn't poo for 24hrs, his poo was very dark brown in colour (which I thought was milena from internal bleeding, but later discovered it was probably due to liver I gave him, the darkness only lasted for a poo or two), and the bone only got passed out after a very concerning THREE days later - COMPLETELY intact about 1.5 inches long x 1/4 inch width!! His poor bum and intestines...
Since then, I've only been comfortable handfeeding chicken necks for him, but I still don't dare to give him chicken thighs or wings to crunch on. I knew he had to have his bone intake so I invested in an STX-3000 Megaforce meatgrinder and ground up some chicken carcasses for him to go with his boneless meals.
Any one with experiences of feeding raw chicken LEG bones to offer any wisdom here?
ANYWAY, after taking care of the bone intake issue, the one lingering issue was the potential food disease (I sometimes question the freshness of Singapore produce since most poultry is imported from Malaysia). So I thought one solution was to sous-vide his meats at 65C (99.99% of salmonella and e.coli are eradicated at temperatures above 64C for 3 minutes or longer) which would maintain the majority of nutrition yet kill any pathogens. BUT....while I was eliminating any potential disease from his boneless portions, his ground-up bone meal was still completely uncooked (we all know what happens to cooked bones). So out of interest, I decided to put my sous vide to a scientific experiment and see what temperature bone actually begins to become brittle and splinter. Here are the test results with the accompanying image below:
were used in the test -
completely raw, bone was crushable with my finger nails/flat side of the knife and was mushy/moist. A human could easily crunch this up with their own molars.
At 65C, 5 mins:
bone still crushable with fingernails but less moist than CONTROL results. Cleaved edges still rounded and crumbly. Acceptable for consumption.
at 65C, 10 mins:
only cleavable with a knife edge using light pressure, and shards' edges are sharper. This would puncture gums or rupture any dogs' tracts with a less than optimal stomach acidity to dissolve the bones.
at 65C, 15 mins:
bone moisture has completely drained out, making the bones completely dangerous for eating.
at 70C, 5 mins:
bones were dried out with edges that were hard and sharp - notably harder than the 65C/15 min result.
at 75C, 5 mins:
just look at the photo. Stay clear of any cooked bones!!
If you need to see a magnified photo of the above results or of the bones WHOLE without being cut, please visit:
, or PM me.
Hope this helps anyone who is concerned about raw vs cooked hygiene!! I know this sounds insane, but I'd rather have my precious furball experience a bout of food poisoning than have those shards irreparably damage his digestive tract!!!
That's interesting. I have an extremely fussy dog who eats pre made raw but won't chew any bones or eat any other bigger raw chunks of meat. She would need to chew more on bones because she gets plaque/tartar very easily despite me brushing her teeth.
So I've been wondering if it would be possible to put chicken legs or ribs of some kind in boiling water for just some seconds, just to get the outer meaty part more palatable for her (she likes cooked meat) and in the hope the bone would still stay "fresh".
I am guessing it would kill off quite a few germs too.
If you worry about salmonella and other germs, from what I heard most dogs don't get any symtoms. It is more a risk to you.
(Also I think Admin would prefer you to post this in an existing thread on raw)
Juni - that's exactly what I wanted to find out too: Anyone whose dogs were having trouble going completely raw or had issues with poultry quality, and using light cooking to get around both issues. So far, I've only dared to handfeed chicken necks for the teeth cleaning issue - the voracious little guy can gnaw his way through a neck in under a minute with his back teeth. Regarding bone intake for nutrition, my homemade ground-up bone meal does the job. With the ground-up bonemeal, it also allows Kyubi to eat his meal neatly out of a bowl when his 'dining towel' is in the wash...hehe. I rather not feed him off the floor because I would have to clean it with Dettol afterwards (for us humans' hygiene) and I am very paranoid about him inadvertently licking any chemicals off the floor!
Apologies to admin if you preferred to keep it under the raw thread. I noticed that the raw thread was about 14 pages long and I didn't want this relatively unique experiment findings to be buried too deeply within another semi-related conversation. I thought it would be handier to have it as a separate reference point which users could find more easily when Googling 'bone test site:www.shibainuforum.org' or searching on the forum itself.
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