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Is this agression or just play?
  • OrangeOrange
    Posts: 123
    Marceline is about 13 weeks old. I am not sure if she is playing or trying to be dominate/agressive in these videos. Borzoi and Shibas both play weird. The like to use their mouths, looks agressive and chomp and bear teeth a lot. However they way Marcey keeps face lunging, trying to get on top of Leoben and the sounds she makes are concerning me. I know Shibas can be prone to agression and dominate behavior so I want to correct it right away if that seems to be developing. So far nobody has gotten hurt and they both are enjoying the game. Leoben is a big boy who can take a lot so he might put up with more than another dog, so it is hard for me to tell if she is taking it too far from my perspective.

    P's - I do want to add that not every game of play is this intense. Sometimes the play much more relaxed. They also have different styles of play. Outside the run and chase a lot.
    Post edited by Orange at 2015-12-11 17:36:44
  • OrangeOrange
    Posts: 123
    Post edited by Orange at 2015-12-11 16:16:53
  • INU RYUUINU RYUU
    Posts: 1505
    If I had a dollar for every time another dog owner was scared about how my Shiba's played with other dogs as the saying goes...

    If you did not know my dogs you would think they were seriously fighting with the noises, growls, snarls and teeth baring etc. My interpretation of their play behavior style is that it's practice for hunting and bringing down prey. When other dogs are involved my boy chases them and my girl cuts the other dog off.

    Shiba's play is rough. The thing to watch for is their focus and piloerection. The "I'm angry" growl and hair raising are red flags and need immediate redirection.

    BTW, your videos shows play. I did not see any aggressive cues. Your Borzoi understands what your puppy is doing and seems fine with it.
    犬竜
    Post edited by INU RYUU at 2015-12-11 16:34:10
  • OrangeOrange
    Posts: 123
    Okay thank you. That is what I thought. Borzoi are very simailr by nature, they were bred to hunt wolves. He was being more laid back because they where indside and he knows he is BIG, outside he is just as crazy but more quite. Most dogs do not understand how to play Borzoi, so I am happy to have a little Shiba who seems to be able to reciprocate. Borzoi are not know to be agressive and are very laid back so I never second guessed my borzoi intentions. I am probably just being paranoid because I know that Shibas can develop dog agression, so I want to be able to correct any negative behavior quickly. They have been doing this since I brought Marcey home. But everyone who comes over keeps freaking out and the vocalization is new to me, so I thought I would get some reassurance. :)
  • ooohhh.. she likes the face bite game too! Tang LOVES face bite game. We only know two other dogs that will play with him like that. Both much bigger than he is.

    They're playing. She might be a bit more rough about it because she is a baby and is still learning. But they look fine together. My big Shiba came running into the room when I played your video. haha They know the call of their own kind!

    I can't seem to get just the video link, but if you scroll down a ways, I have a couple of videos of Moxy and Tang playing. They just make weird sounds like they are so, so mean.
    http://terracepets.tumblr.com/
  • Looks like playing to me! She is definitely on the feisty side and with Leoben being so big, I'd just monitor it so that it doesn't escalate where Marce might get accidentally hurt from a leg punt. Tali used to play pretty rough as a puppy with my bigger dog, Nala. But she's since learned that when she's way too feisty, Nala will usually put her in her place by giving her a good neck nip, but I will usually distract both of them with a recall/treat before it gets too crazy and they shake it off.

    Here's both of them playing at about a level 2. It usually is a level 5, especially when we come home. Tali can get VERY vocal to the point where it sounds like you're killing a dolphin, but it's all just fun. The only thing I'd recommend is to watch out for tug o' war sessions, especially if she exhibits any type of guarding behavior.



    Here's another one with Tali playing with her brother and she chomps down just a little too hard:

    image
    Post edited by Nikkitine at 2015-12-11 17:25:00
  • OrangeOrange
    Posts: 123
    She was doing great with resource sharing ;) So far not a hint of weirdness with food/treats. She has also done great with toys. Then a little red flag did occur at puppy class. She was playing with a 6 month old border collie type dog and at first she was doing some luring type deal. Grabbing a long stuffed fox and prancing around with it trying to get the border collie to chase and play tug of war. Then we traded out the fox for a mini tennis ball. They were both taking turns playing perfect fetch (Marceline plays fetch!). then we re-introduced the fox. It was just the two of them and Marcey grabbed the fox and the ball. She laied down and put her feet/elbows on the fox toy while she tried to chew on the ball. When the other dog would come up she would sort of bark, while wagging her tail. She was still acting playful... but also like she wanted those two toys for herself.

    At that point the trainer took both toys away and we didn't visit the situation further because that was just at the play time part. However I wanted to get to the bottom of it. I don't know how she would have responded if the collie tried to take one away from her. I don't know if she was even being possessive. She has since shared perfectly well with other stranger dogs and my own dogs... so maybe I am reading to far into it.

    @Nikkitine - I think maybe Tali's story has me being extra careful. I read her story and some of your other discussions about how Tali was the perfect little puppy who seemed to develop dog aggression.
  • @Orange - Tali's guarding and aggression reared it's ugly head at around 6 months. I have heard that females tend to "grow up" faster than males in terms of tolerance to other dogs and in my case, that part is true but I also know my share of wonderful females. Her brother, Koopa, is the complete opposite with a super friendly temperament that does sadden me a bit because I know that she'll most likely never be that way no matter how much training she has. It's part of her personality to be more reserved with other dogs and I just have to learn to manage it correctly.

    However, that's Tali's story and how Marce turns out can/will be completely different. Being careful is good and if you just keep doing what you're doing with all the socialization while learning things like body language, when to step in during play, and resource management, you'll increase your chances of setting Marce up for the greatest success. Remember that dog intolerance and sass is something that comes with the breed so don't beat yourself up if those things show up in the future. What I urge you to do though, is to prepare as much as you can with research and training for the teenage stage since that is when she will test you the most!
    image
    Post edited by Nikkitine at 2015-12-11 18:43:55
  • My shibas act and sound like this all the time. I was concerned about mine at first as well, but looks to me like yours is pretty normal! They sound like they're killing each other more often than not. I have never seen a scratch or bite on either though.
  • I was really worried about this when we first got Pav. I have research it a ton and gone to socialization classes. We went to puppy play time but then we tried what's called here in Utah, "back to pack" which was so much better. I was told that anything that makes you uncomfortable you can stop, give them a time out. They said learning to read their body language will put your mind at easy. You want to stop them if they are overwhelming the other dog though even if they are playing though, especially with more timid dogs. Pav plays rough but he is learning to chill out with different play partners. An article I liked was this one http://thebark.com/content/your-dogs-rough-play-appropriate
    If you are still worried try finding a socialization class to help teach you to identify what's okay and not okay. Good luck!
  • Hi Orange!

    Yesterday I read your story about your little girl and I have to say. My heart felt for you and from what I'm gathering, @Nikkitine story must be just as heartbreaking to think you've got one thing and then slowly everything changes.

    I don't know very much about play myself and we don't have another dog currently to start testing this out. My girl is only 8 weeks old and just got her first round of shots. But I wanted to post on here and say that Leoben is absolutely gorgeous. And so is your Marceline :-)

    And since we are both first time Shiba owners, I'm def following you around since you point out things that have crossed my mind. So don't be weirded out lol.
    image
  • My Kiba seems to be greedy of toys in general. Then he also lets Ahri play/chew on her toys. Sometimes they will start barking at each other in what seems to be "angry", then a few minutes later after I calm them down they are cuddling next to each other. I have yet to figure out exactly what it is. But I am sure that it is Kiba being greedy and selfish with toys and chews.

    One thing to point out, having two shibas in the house, it does sound like they are fighting but they are normally just being playful...you can just tell the difference.
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6675
    @Orange

    This thread has lots videos which might help to see how some shiba play.
    http://www.shibainuforum.org/forum/discussion/9429/shiba-play/p1

    When Saya was puppy she would mouth Bella's floppy boxer lips a lot. she eventually grew out of that an just does chase type games. She can be pretty loud when she plays with me making Tasmanian devil sounds. lol
    Photobucket
    Nicole, 5year old Bella(Boxer), and 4year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • imBLASIANimBLASIAN
    Posts: 366
    At 8 months, Ponyo still loves to antagonize any type of boxer, boston terrier, frenchy, droopy-faced-dog by nibbling on their jowls. Mostly she just stands on her hind legs and pats them with her front paws though.

    With other spitz breeds, she is super teethy, and you would think its a major fight, except it is silent, and they are both just rolling around teeth barred.

    She resource guards with toys though, not sure yet how to get her out of that.
  • dpquick1dpquick1
    Posts: 14
    We took Usagi for a walk/play date with one of our friends last night. She has two dogs, a large black lab and a small hound mix. Usagi would bark at the smaller dog, Piper, and charge her. Piper would just roll over but I can't tell if Usagi was playing or being aggressive/mean. She would bark, get low to the ground, and run at her while continuing to bark the whole time. She would do this to the bigger dog once or twice but he just didn't care about her. Should I be worried?
  • A while has passed since @dpquick1 's post above -- I would wager to say that Usagi's behavior, as described, is pretty routine Shiba and you shouldn't be worried. There are probably threads here that go into what bullying might look like -- and that is always good to know. At the super-basic-level, I'd say that if the other dog continues to engage, all is good. As a test, you can pull Usagi back -- if the other dog comes in for more, that other dog is also having fun and you can let it roll. If, on the other hand, the other dog walks away, (s)he might be a bit overwhelmed and you should give them a break.

    If you ever have the chance to let her play with other Shiba's you'll likely be amazed that this is just SO normal! (If you live in a major city, chances are good that there are several shibas nearby -- you could check out meetup.com and search "shiba inu" for a start.) It appears to me that Huskeys (and the like) also share similar play styles and might play together very well.

    The first couple vids didn't load for me, but this thread might also be informative:
    http://www.shibainuforum.org/forum/discussion/9429/shiba-play/p1
    (Edit: I can't seem to get that link right. (Grrrrr...) If it just loops back to this post, try copy/paste. Sorry...)

    Has this become less of a worry over the past couple months?

    Edit: Also tons of input here:
    http://www.shibainuforum.org/forum/discussion/7661/when-does-puppy-play-become-concerning
    Post edited by EmpressSachi at 2016-10-10 17:58:33
  • @EmpressSachi It actually has become a lot less of a worry for us. Over the past few months we have really gotten the chance to learn Usagi's body language. We have had numerous walks/playdates with these two dogs and other dogs too. We did have had a few moments where a fight was starting to happen with the black lab but he just didn't want to play with Usagi and they continue to get along well as long as she isn't boisterous towards him. I did catch a video of Usagi playing with the little dog and once you turn the sound down (because she is very vocal) you can tell that it definitely is just playing.

    There was one other incident with my sister's dog, Diego, and Usagi. They usually just ignore each other but one day Usagi got excited and hyper while we were visiting them and she kept trying to play with Diego and it just scared him. They still get along and can be next to each other, but if she starts to get hyper he gets scared of her (he does not play with other dogs at all) so we just separate them or leave.

    We were also worried about one of our cats too but he is not afraid of Usagi and they play literally all day. We've made sure to watch them play, and even though it sounds rough, they are genuinely just playing. We use the 'leave it' command and she will stop playing with him but he runs right up to her or sits in front of her until Usagi plays with him again.
  • @dpquick1 -- Great to hear!
    Sachi is just at about 4mo right now and I'm dying to introduce her to our neighbor's cat... =P~
  • spacedogsspacedogs
    Posts: 227
    Laika (the b&t) guards high value food items from Rhyz (the red), but she has never actually hurt Rhyz in keeping him away from them .. she just snaps to warn him, and is getting better and less guarded with time and training.

    Rhyz, on the other hand, doesn't necessarily guard anything but he doesn't like to share in the sense that if Laika has something then he must obviously have it, too. The only exception to this is food time and treats, he leaves hers alone because he's also getting his own. If she has a toy, he must also have that toy. We've been working on co-operative play and he's at the point now where he'll play tug with her and they can both chew on the same toy at the same time, but sometimes disputes arise about who exactly gets to chew on what.

    Sometimes this escalates in to full blown arguments (for them that means full on barking and jumping at each other but they've never actually bit each other before, they just make a whole lot of noise and threaten to until we separate them and force a peace treaty).

    Here's an example of them having a discussion about who gets to chew on the sock (Laika had it first and didn't really want to share but Rhyz still had to complain about it).

    I'd say this is about a level 2 of escalation for them, but if either of them is feeling moody they fly from 0 to 100000 in the blink of an eye.

    https://www.facebook.com/tammy.moreau.75/videos/10154427261056745/

    If the link doesn't work I'll see if I can fix it, but I think I made it public so it could be viewed.
  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 8254
    spacedogs said:

    We've been working on co-operative play and he's at the point now where he'll play tug with her and they can both chew on the same toy at the same time, but sometimes disputes arise about who exactly gets to chew on what.

    Sometimes this escalates in to full blown arguments (for them that means full on barking and jumping at each other but they've never actually bit each other before, they just make a whole lot of noise and threaten to until we separate them and force a peace treaty).



    I would stop allowing this immediately. Allowing them to chew on the same treat/toy is only going to cause more guarding and argument/fight issues. Buy two of everything and if one is unable to allow the other to play/chew in peace, separate them during this time. Manage chew/play time carefully and if your male starts towards your female while she is enjoying the item, redirect him. If he still can not deal with it, separate them.
    Bella 2Mountains 2Nola 2
    Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia.
    I Wander, I Ride
  • spacedogsspacedogs
    Posts: 227
    sunyata said:


    I would stop allowing this immediately. Allowing them to chew on the same treat/toy is only going to cause more guarding and argument/fight issues. Buy two of everything and if one is unable to allow the other to play/chew in peace, separate them during this time. Manage chew/play time carefully and if your male starts towards your female while she is enjoying the item, redirect him. If he still can not deal with it, separate them.



    Now why would I want to regress to less social behavior? I'm not debating with you whether or not they need to respect each others boundaries more because for us this issue is strictly about toys. Laika won't share her food or treats with Rhyzik, and he knows this and doesn't try to take them from her but he does sometimes get too close for her comfort (the snapping I mentioned previously), he respects her boundaries there even though he is potentially the most food motivated dog I have ever seen, he just needs to be close enough to her food that he can get a few lick tastes out of the air and vicariously enjoy it through her ... :-))

    Laika takes Rhyz's toys just as much as he takes hers, the difference in the two is that Laika doesn't mind Rhyz interfering with her MOST of the time, whereas Rhyz ALWAYS minded before.

    Allowing them to chew on the same toy (never a treat) is one of the ways they play together (such as tug of war). Prior to our intervention in teaching them co-operative play they could not share a toy and it was always an escalation. Not any toy. Ever. Not even a two foot long knotted rope.

    The entire point of the lesson is so that when, or if, they are playing alone and one intervenes with the other, no matter who it is doing the intervention, they don't escalate to a fight. Now we've gone from it escalating 100% of the time, to escalating (like the video above) maybe once or twice a week out of half a dozen incidents a day. They have learned, instead of fighting, to just play together or walk away and do something else (most of the time). I'm hoping you just misunderstood or something, because I really can't fathom how having them unable to share a toy at all is actually better than them learning how to play together.
  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 8254
    @spacedogs - You stated, and I quote (emphasis mine):

    spacedogs said:

    Sometimes this escalates in to full blown arguments (for them that means full on barking and jumping at each other but they've never actually bit each other before, they just make a whole lot of noise and threaten to until we separate them and force a peace treaty).



    Full blown arguments almost always will eventually end up being fights if the behaviour is not eventually redirected. By not setting boundaries and protecting the dogs from the nuisance of the other one stealing their resources (whether it be toys, food, etc.), you are setting them up for failure.

    If the dogs are okay playing with each other with toys, that is completely different than one dog laying down, enjoying a chew toy and the other dog coming by and attempting to steal it, which is what I interpreted your statement to mean, and if I misinterpreted, my apologies.

    I will give you some real life examples with my two dogs who are generally not resource guarders.

    My pups love to play with plushies with each other. They play tug, they toss them around, they playfully steal them away from the other (while in motion and actively playing with the other dog). However, sometimes they want to just lay down and chew on it. The other dog respects this and gives the chewing dog her space. They understand these boundaries. Even if the other dog wants to play, she does not engage. This is acceptable canine behaviour.

    With chews (such as Nylabones, antlers, etc), they NEVER attempt to take the chew away from the other dog. But they also know that these are for chewing and not for playing (ever had an antler flung across the room at your face?). Granted, they will attempt to trick the other dog into giving up the chew if they really want it (they also do this with napping spots) by going and barking at the door. The other dog goes to investigate and the instigator steals the chew/spot. My dogs have been taught the "move your feet, lose your seat" rule and are okay with this.

    My point was not to disallow them from playing with toys with each other, but to stop allowing one dog to steal the other's toy/chew while he or she is relaxing with it (not actively tossing it around in an attempt to play). Relaxation time should be that. They should not be worrying about the other dog coming up and stealing their item.
    Bella 2Mountains 2Nola 2
    Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia.
    I Wander, I Ride
  • spacedogsspacedogs
    Posts: 227
    Ah no, the arguments erupt during play time, not quiet time. The two of them are very good at leaving each other alone when one or the other just wants to do their solo dog thing. The arguments only erupt during play, and started as Rhyz being intolerant of Laika playing with ANYTHING, even if there were two of the same item he would insist on having hers, so we began working on teaching him to share. The arguments that happen now are only with toys during play time - the sock video for instance, was during tug of war and Rhyz decided he didn't want to play anymore and didn't want Laika to have the sock & in that instance they deescalated themselves and we didn't have to intervene (same goes for most of the time - actual escalation for them is pretty rare, like maybe a handful of times ever and 2 of those were when Laika was in heat).

    Sorry for the confusion & the run on sentences.. :\">

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