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Hyperextension?
  • Sukis_MomSukis_Mom
    Posts: 19
    I searched from the site and using google search and couldn't turn up anything for this issue. I took Suki to her first vet visit today and the vet said that her back legs were showing signs of hyperextension. He said that her back legs are really straight when she is standing and that she is putting about 60% of her weight on her front legs causing her back legs to walk more on the toes then the whole foot. He shown she some stretches (just extending the leg out and the gently pushing it forward) that I can do with her while she plays and said that when I take her for walks, that taking her up and down hills a lot will help to stretch and loosen the muscle. We go back April 4 for her second round of vacc and another check up. I was wondering if anyone else has any experience with this?

    I also want to add that she is the first Shiba Inu puppy that the office has had. They said that they have someone who brings in their 3 adult Shiba Inu dogs but they have never had a puppy before. My second question is if maybe I should look for a different office to take her too that has more experience with her specific breed?

    On the plus side though everything else is great! She is a perfectly healthy pup! No cries or whines while at the vet or while receiving her booster! She even gave kisses to everyone in the office that wanted to love on her!

    Sorry I also want to add that she isn't showing any signs of pain or discomfort in her back legs. She is always hopping in the grass and running around. It doesn't seem to be slowing her down or causing her any problems
    Post edited by Sukis_Mom at 2015-03-14 12:41:06
  • Kira_KiraKira_Kira
    Posts: 2482
    Can you post a video? I would ask your vet if they would give you a referral to a specialist that deals with problems relating to hyperextension/luxating patella/bone issues - not necessarily just someone with Shiba experience.
    Cynthia, Proudly owned by Kira
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  • Sukis_MomSukis_Mom
    Posts: 19
    @Kira_Kira Sorry for the delay. The little miss wanted to go for a walk. Here is a little vid I snuck of her walking around. Anytime she sees my phone she always comes up to it to try to nibble on it so this is the best one I could get.







    I tried using the embed code but I guess I got the wrong part?
    Post edited by Sukis_Mom at 2015-03-14 13:50:12
  • Kira_KiraKira_Kira
    Posts: 2482
    That does look concerning, and reminds me of another forum member's Shiba that might be able to input some good advice @Saya ?

    Again, I think it's worth looking for a specialist. One of the Shiba rescues had a pup recently that had a really bad issue with her knees. Don't know what the outcome was, though.
    Cynthia, Proudly owned by Kira
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    Kira the Cream Shiba Inu 吉良 - Facebook Page
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  • Sukis_MomSukis_Mom
    Posts: 19
    @Kira_Kira do you think it would be better to make an appointment with a specialist now or wait for her next regular vet visit on April 4 before moving further? I have done some of the leg stretches with her while she was playing earlier and I am going to start incorporating an extra couple of hills on our walks as well.

    I wanted to add too that the vet said that taking her swimming can help loosen that up as well. It's not quite warm enough in Kentucky to do that yet but my parents do own a pool. Is it safe for their coats to have them in chemically treated water like that? Or should I invest in a cheap kid pool from Walmart, or fill up the bath tub half way full and just let her walk around and play in it? (So far she doesn't seem to mind water very much. She'll walk through puddles no problem. She didn't mind being in the tub with a little bit of water either.)
    Post edited by Sukis_Mom at 2015-03-14 14:40:51
  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 8388
    I would highly suggest that you go see an ortho specialist sooner, rather than later. This could be one of many issues ranging from bad hips to neurological issues. If you purchased this puppy from a reputable and responsible breeder, you need to get in touch with them immediately and notify them. If you went to a good breeder, they will want to know and will most likely offer to assist with veterinary bills, if necessary.
    Bella 2Mountains 2Nola 2
    Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia.
    I Wander, I Ride
  • I don't see what is wrong... is it the wiggly butt?

  • SushiShibaSushiShiba
    Posts: 205
    @BanjoTheBetaDog - if you look at her hind legs, they're really straight. Go look at Banjo's legs while he's walking around, and you'll notice they're slightly bent, kind of like the opposite of a human's knees when they walk. That's hyperextension.

    This is what it looks like in humans, for reference:
    photo 9-Hyper-extended-Knee_zpsqstxu8wz.jpg
  • I think that's Banjo's default state....uh-oh....

    So the picture on the left is "ok" and the one on the right is "not ok"?


    He is from a bad breeder and is way too big for the breed standards. Gonna ask the vet when we go on Wednesday.

    Post edited by BanjoTheBetaDog at 2015-03-16 11:36:24
  • SushiShibaSushiShiba
    Posts: 205
    Since you're going to the vet, it doesn't hurt to ask. But don't panic until it's confirmed... you may be seeing something that isn't there lol. Don't go hypochondriac! :P
  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 8388
    @BanjoTheBetaDog - You have it incorrect, the picture posted above is of human anatomy and the diagram on the right indicates correct alignment of the leg. The diagram on the left indicates hyperextension.

    Here is a good thread on the topic of rear end angulation:
    http://www.shibainuforum.org/forum/discussion/10867/the-effect-of-angulation-on-working-ability-in-shibas/p1
    Bella 2Mountains 2Nola 2
    Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia.
    I Wander, I Ride
  • SushiShibaSushiShiba
    Posts: 205
    Sorry, I didn't see your edit when I posted my response... hope I didn't confuse anybody!
  • Kira_KiraKira_Kira
    Posts: 2482
    https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10153101073233744

    This is the video of Kendall, the Shiba puppy that was born at an Amish puppy mill and donated because of her genetic defect - she has abnormal hip, knee joints, and a spinal issue.
    Cynthia, Proudly owned by Kira
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    “Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole.”
  • Sukis_MomSukis_Mom
    Posts: 19
    Aw poor baby Kendall! I definitely do not think that my girl is that bad off. But judging from the angulation link that was posted she definitely has the stiff legs and her back stance didn't exactly seem to match up with any of them but I also couldn't keep her still long enough to really be able to investigate. I've noticed while she is playing the her left leg remains stiffer then the right. Which the vet noticed too.
  • Kira_KiraKira_Kira
    Posts: 2482
    Sad news, baby Kendall unexpectedly passed on March 29. She was acting out of sorts, taken to the Emergency Vet, and due to her congenital defects she did not make it through the night. :((
    Cynthia, Proudly owned by Kira
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    “Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole.”
  • @kira_kira

    So sorry to hear the bad news! :( :( :(
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4784
    So, this little Shiba has very poor rear angulation, typical of the breed 20 years ago. Show breeders in the states have been working to breed towards something less extreme, but "straight" rears and fronts are still a big issue in the breed, as the Japanese ideal kind of regards straighter legs as more aesthetically pleasing and "correct" for breed type. Dogs with very straight rears, and slipping hocks, like this puppy in the video, may have higher incidence of luxating patella and may not be the best candidates for dog sports. It's just a throwback to how the breed was in the US when the first imports started arriving. My guess is that this puppy has recent imports in the pedigree, or is from a pet store or puppy farm (those in the US farms all go back to the same imports that had these issues 20 years ago).
    "Common sense isn't so common"
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  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4784
    Her lower thigh is just very short probably, which is a known issue in this breed and nothing can undo that (as long as the knee caps are well seated, otherwise that is an expensive surgical fix). Have the vet check the patellas as she grows. She will be at greater risk of ruptured cruciates also. Her arm from the scapula to the forearm is also probably very short and straight.
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6675
    Sorry for late reply. :\ I hope vet can help you with this.

    Saya's issue seems to be spinal or neurological bit different from your shiba.

    These two videos are of when I first gotten her.
    https://youtu.be/pTnyO4CWGRg

    https://youtu.be/LkRKfYObrlk

    She's four years old in this one finally got a camera that takes videos.
    https://youtu.be/_GLqTRnAcPE
    Photobucket
    Nicole, 5year old Bella(Boxer), and 4year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • aferraroaferraro
    Posts: 33
    Suki's Mom:

    My shiba has hyperextented back legs as well. We adopted her from a shelter when she was (we think) 5yrs. She is now 8. She also has luxtating patellas in both back legs - severe ones. Vet rated them a 3 out of 4 (4 being the worst). As she was a rescue, we don't know if the knees were caused by straight legs or what.

    Anyway, the vet wanted to do surgery on her knees, which they said would help ease her leg issue. After doing research, we decided it was not a good idea. The surgery has a 50% chance of working, with no guarantee that it will fix the issue permanently. Also, recovery is starting out with 6 weeks of crate rest. Hmm. . .

    Instead, we have done lots of research in alternative methods to help our Emma. Here is what we have learned.

    1. More frequent shorter walks are better than long ones.
    2. Stretching and strengthening the back legs and back-leg-awareness really helps. If she jumps and lands wrong, or tweaks her legs while walking the extra muscle help - a lot. If you are interested, I am happy to share what we do.
    3. a strict diet to keep her on the lower side of her weight range is a must.
    4. Regular visits to the chiropractor. I know this sounds crazy to some, and it took me almost a year before I was willing to try it, but it has been, hands down, the best thing we could do for Emma. There are days where she does something and can't walk because she hurts. As soon as the chiropractic visit is done, she is walking and sleeping comfortably - she even gets really snuggly (I think it is her way of thanking us for helping her feel better). Before the chiropractor, we were at the vet every month or so with a dog shivering in pain, screaming and couldn't walk. They only gave her pain meds and talked about surgery. Since the chiropractor, she her pain episodes have decreased in frequency and severity significantly. Not to mention the chiropractor is one of her favorite people . . . ever.

    I am weary of vets we have encountered for many reasons. I would encourage you to find alternative methods to help your puppy - they have made the world of difference for our Emma.

    If you have read this far, here is a great reference for help:
    http://www.caninesports.com/booksdvd.html

    Dr. Chris Zink is amazing in her methods for canine rehab. She filmed Emma to use her for a dog with hyperextended legs.

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