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Are terrible two's real for Shibas? Help?
  • kagurarapkagurarap
    Posts: 208
    I read http://nycshibarescue.org/shibas/is-a-shiba-right-for-me/ that at 18 months up to 3 years, Shibas can start challenging their owners again. I'm not sure if this is true or not - but I think I need some assistance before this becomes a real problem.

    Tali is 2 months from turning 2 years old - and up until now, her house training skills are good since we trained her as a puppy - no accidents unless it was our fault, like her not going before we went to bed and then she had to go, but she wasn't let out.

    Now Tali is pad trained - we do go outside, but if we're inside, she's trained to use the pad and has done so successfully up until maybe a week or two ago. I'm not sure what's going on. I went into my kitchen and realized that she took a crap on my floor. I was totally confused. She had already peed where she was supposed to but for some odd reason, went to the kitchen to do the rest. I just cleaned it up and wasn't sure what to make of it. And then the other day, I found what appeared to be a suspicious hardened piece of her stool in my bedroom and although I looked everywhere in the room, didn't find anything. Wasn't sure what to make of that either. Over the weekend, crapped in the kitchen again. This time, I got mad, and probably frightened her a bit because I yelled - I know that I'm in the wrong, after I calmed down, I gave her a good cuddle, but oh man, I was like - what, just what is happening?

    And so I've now blocked off the kitchen with a gate. Today, all seems well until a few minutes ago I've found yet another suspicious piece of hardened doggy stool in my dog's crate which is in my bedroom.

    Now I'm like... wtf is going on?

    This is what's changed in recent months:

    1. We've been slacking with consistent feeding times - yes, I know, I suck, and I've been trying to get back to it now ever since she's been weird with her potty habits
    2. I changed the flavor to her food, which was Wellness Core Ocean up until this point and because she seemed to be bored with it, I tried the original chicken version so I switch them up now or mix them together. I also noticed when I give her too much of the original flavor - her stool smells like death. Maybe I should stop giving her this?
    3. We stopped locking her in the crate when we go to bed and instead let her wander or sleep anywhere she wants in the bedroom. I feel like this might be part of the crate issue now because she's gotten so used to having free reign, hell why not just crap in the crate, not like she sleeps in it right? So one of my proposed solutions was to start locking her in the crate again.
    4. Also, it's summer and I've been noticing her eating a bit less but I figured this was natural due to the heat? Other than eating a bit less or sometimes being picky with food - she's still energetic and not having any other weird symptoms.

    So my theory is, I have to treat Tali like she's a puppy all over again. Stalk her and catch her if she tries to go on the floor, either take her out or put her on the pad till she gets the message - lock her in the crate at night - maybe even keep her leashed until she earns her freedom, but I'm not sure if this is the right path to take or how far I should be going with this. Because Tali isn't a puppy. But she's kind of acting like one...

    Suggestions? Help?
    Post edited by kagurarap at 2014-07-01 22:25:32
  • jennjenn
    Posts: 856
    Is there a reason she has to use the potty pads inside? It sounds like she's confused about the type of relieving herself she is supposed to be doing in the kitchen area. Are the bowel movements in the kitchen that you've found normal, or could her stomach be upset from the different food flavor?

    The hardened stools in the bedroom and crate sound almost like accidents, like she may not even know about them. I'm not sure if Tali is the same, but Rigby relaxes A LOT during sleep (including his little behind area, if you get my drift), and we've found tiny little pieces in his crate and in our bedroom before that I think may have just fallen out while he slept... If they're really small, that could explain it.
    Jenn, Shiba Slave to Rigby / http://hellorigby.com
  • zandramezandrame
    Posts: 1106
    I don't think the teenage phase generally has a lapse in potty training. You might want to see a vet to rule out any issues.

    I also don't understand the need for potty pads - she should be capable and old enough to hold it in between walks. Maybe she needs more exercise outside to get it all out. If she's confused inside, you might need to re-train her like a puppy. Limit her access to safe spaces when you aren't around, or put her in the crate.

    But seriously, ditch the pads!
  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 8583
    Yikes. Sounds like a very confused pup!

    First off, stop getting mad at Tali (it will actually make the situation worse). This is not her fault, but yours. YOU trained her to potty inside. So, you need to fix that first (after a vet visit to rule out any health issues, of course). Ditch the potty pads and take her outside! Failure to do this is just plain laziness on the owner's part (unless of course there is a REALLY good reason for not being able to take the dog out, such as a disability).

    Now, go back and start potty training 101 all over. Use a crate (if she is crate trained) or the tether method. Praise her when she potties outside and only correct if you catch her in the act (and by correct, I mean a short AH-AH to catch her attention, then scoop her up and take her outside and praise her when she goes out there). If she has an accident and you did not catch her in the act, ignore it, clean it up, and be more diligent in paying attention.
    Bella 2Mountains 2Nola 2
    Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia.
    I Wander, I Ride
  • kagurarapkagurarap
    Posts: 208
    @Jenn
    Yeah I'm not really sure about it - since I couldn't find any more traces, that's sort of why I just cleaned it up and not really paid it any mind. It's one thing if I found more or a whole lot but the fact that it was so little and seemed like it was there for a while - I couldn't really make anything of it but didn't think she literally went in there. Although I have no proof haha.

    Also her stool in the kitchen was normal - terribly stinky but solid. I've been trying to feed her less chicken...

    And due to my laziness (@sunyata I agree with you) her meal times were getting wonky an I'd been getting slack with some things - I've been super busy with a lot of health issues happening in the family and work and it's just crazy for me but since her last accident, I spoke with my bf and we're trying to work together to make sure she eats consistently and sleeps in her crate and we just give her a daily routine again. So she knows when she's out, when she's in etc and when it was like that - she didn't have any issues even with the pads.

    I understand why people are against pads, and it makes sense, at the same time, I wish I didn't have to feel like I wrote a curse word or something every time the word "pad" was mentioned or assumptions are being made. Tali is a good dog - we've trained her since we got her as a puppy and she does go out and we don't normally have issues. I live in an apartment in the Bronx and so when people tell me I should be taking my dog out five times a day including at night or something - it's like one, I don't feel like getting shot, and two, who realistically has this time. And then we have the whole, "then don't get a dog" debate. I also disagree that just because you have an apartment and can't take your dog out every 4 hours, that you can't have a dog. This is my opinion. I'm not saying I'm right or wrong - but it's just how I personally feel. And up until this point, behavior wise, Tali hasn't given me any issues once we've done the proper training as a puppy.

    If you re-read my post - I am also aware that being angry with her was a mistake, so really, no need to rub that in. No need to repeat what I'm already aware of.

    I also agree that maybe I should stop by the vet in case - we've just gone back to the locked up crate last night and I used to unlock her before work, let her out, she would do her business, and then eat, and then go back in her crate. So far, it looks like she's back on that routine without any fuss. Let's see how it goes.

    And I will keep in mind that perhaps more exercise is the solution. Thanks everyone.
  • RikkaRikka
    Posts: 1501
    I don't know... Sagan is a little over 2-years-old now and his behavior hasn't changed—in fact, he's been more calm and easier to manage.

    We've been slacking with consistent feeding times


    I think I'm one of the only people on this forum to free-feed, but Sagan takes it upon himself to eat at a consistent time anyways. He generally eats after lunch and an hour or two before bed. I've never had any problems with him, ever, being picky or eating less or too much.

    We stopped locking her in the crate when we go to bed and instead let her wander or sleep anywhere she wants in the bedroom. I feel like this might be part of the crate issue now because she's gotten so used to having free reign, hell why not just crap in the crate, not like she sleeps in it right? So one of my proposed solutions was to start locking her in the crate again.


    Hmm... Like everyone else, I'd probably do crate-training again. Back to the basics for a few weeks, kinda thing.
    image
    Lauren, living with a 4 y/o Shiba named after a scientist. ☆
  • kagurarapkagurarap
    Posts: 208
    @Rikka

    Really? Mostly everyone here has a schedule? I mainly did it that way because when I house trained her as a puppy, I needed her to be more predictable for when she has to use the bathroom. So if I fed her a certain amount of meals a day at the same times, I could better control when she goes and therefore help prevent accidents. So now that she's older, she generally goes maybe 2-3 times a day and I was leaving the food out instead of taking it away, so it would seem like 1) she wasn't eating and/or 2) needs to use the bathroom randomly now including in the middle of the night which for me, is not a good time to go outside.

    So that's why I'm hoping that bringing her back to the schedule, I can predict her bathroom times again and be on the lookout for her - no more surprise kitchen presents. XD

    And definitely starting the crating thing. I hope it woooorks! *crosses fingers*
  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 3495
    @kagurarap

    Each dog is different, and although most have the same habits, some fall under the "special case" group.

    Aside from Rikka, I know one other Shiba forum member who free feeds his Shiba. The 10 min method (where you take away the food) has no impact on his shiba, and he rather starve, which leads the the free feeding. He self regulates like Sagan.

    I don't think its terrible twos, I just think you're hitting a bump with your Shiba. Sometimes that happens :) and we just have to do reinforcement training to get them back on track!
  • @kagurarap - yes, I believe that @bootz is correct. The vast majority of the forum does scheduled feedings which are helpful to most dogs for any number of reasons. I am one of the very few that does free feedings, and much like the other dog mentioned it is because my girl will starve herself if I do that. Given that her being underweight is already something of a chronic issue for us, we have to free feed by necessity.
  • Kit_Keet_Kit_Keet_
    Posts: 206
    Have you thought about what may have changed in/with her environment shortly before her accidents?

    I only ask because Kit absolutely refuses to poo outside if it's raining... Number 1 is fine, number 2 is a no go. It drives me nuts because she's 3 and is quite obviously house broken, but if there is water falling from the sky, she poops in the exact same spot in the kitchen every time if you aren't constantly staring at her.
  • kagurarapkagurarap
    Posts: 208
    Hmm, so it's a phase that comes and goes then? She seemed like she was doing good this week aaaand we discovered some pee in her crate this morning. *sigh* I almost feel like she's holding it in - like she didn't go since yesterday morning and we were like, okay, this is not right. And then my bf finds the pee.

    @kit_keet As far as environment, I know there was a huge thunderstorm yesterday and when I came home, she was laying in front of my closed bedroom door, away from my bf and seemed sort of weird. Tail uncurled, just very meh. At first I thought maybe she was afraid of the thunder? Although we've had storms before and I don't remember her being particularly scared - no shaking or crying. So I played with her a bit and her tongue was hanging out fast and after a few ball tosses, she seemed to give up - so I thought that was weird and assumed maybe she was hot bc she felt warm and we didn't have the AC and it was like 90 out. So we put the AC.

    She seems to be very picky with her food within the last week or two - I've been back to the schedule the last few days but last night I left it there bc she was acting weird and I feel like she does starve herself - like I had to bribe her to eat this morning by crumbling a few treat pieces into her food. I feel like she's eating less, and then yesterday with her odd behavior - she looked like she was cautious or she'd done something bad.

    And maybe it's the emotion. Like I said, a lot's been going on with me personally and with my family and health so I wonder if she can feel those vibes from me...

    Anyway, I think it's time for tethering...
  • NASANASA
    Posts: 189
    @kagurarap I also am a fan of Pads, and many other dog owners are the same way, who live in an apartment. It is something that people who do not live in High-rises 10+ floors understand. Especially when you have a puppy. I sympathize with you wholeheartedly.

    However I dont use them anymore because I started to run into the same problems you are running into:

    She had already peed where she was supposed to but for some odd reason, went to the kitchen to do the rest.


    This was the Biggest problem I had, and some shibas, being clean, will not do #1 and #2 on the same pad. After the pad is soiled with pee it is considered and undesireable spot to them. So I had a shiba who peed on the pad and pooped elsewhere.

    What helped was just making a bigger pad area, like 4-5 pads in a square. In my small urban apartment it was about 1/4 the living room lol. I have sense moved to the 1st floor in a different building and dont use pads, but dont think you're alone. I just hate having to run a trash bag outside everytime there was poop action lol.


    I do agree that the use of pads (non scented) may/will confuse a pup/dog IF not trained properly. If this has been working for you for two years, I say stick to what works best, until it stops working ;)
  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 8583
    @kagurarap - If she is behaving differently and her eating habits have changed, I would really suggest a vet visit to make sure everything is okay with her medically. (You have been on the forum to know by now that is going to be the first piece of advice anyone gives you.)

    So get her to the vet! :)
    Bella 2Mountains 2Nola 2
    Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia.
    I Wander, I Ride
  • kagurarapkagurarap
    Posts: 208
    AH debunked her strange behavior last night - she's doing the same weird behavior as last night right now - there's another thunderstorm. She's afraid of thunder! I really hadn't noticed - I guess I expected her to be more vocal about it but all she does is stick by me or my bf and if you look at her closely, she's shaking.

    Anyway, back to working on the potty behavior. Will keep you all posted on that. I made sure to run her around today but it was really hot out so she got tired quick. It's hard to keep them active when it feels like an oven out...
  • Kobe1468Kobe1468
    Posts: 1587
    This may help a bit for the T-storm issue:

    http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/theotherendoftheleash/thunder-phobia-in-dogs
    "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened."
  • Lradd58Lradd58
    Posts: 54
    Your first mistake is using pee pads after she was potty trained. She should only be relieving herself outside. Second was changing her food. Dogs are not like people and actually don't get bored eating the same food. She also needs to be on a consistant schedule for potty times and feeding. I'm sure once a schedule has been established she will stop peeing and pooping in the house.
  • shibamistressshibamistress
    Posts: 5171
    Good link about treating thunder phobia! I start with the mildest solution and work my way up. With my girl Shiba, we used a thundershirt, a DAP diffuser and if that still didn't work, medication. Somedays we only needed the one or two things, which was good.

    I won't say much about this since it's all been said before, but yeah, the pads are a bad idea (though I can see why someone might need them when doing puppy training if you lived in a highrise, though it does make housetraining more time consuming). And adult dog who is fed on a schedule also doesn't need to go out that much, so anyone who has a dog--even in a high rise--should be able to accomodate the adult dog's needs. Morning, midday (or when you get home for work), evening after dinner, and probably a before bed walk. I could see an adult dog only getting three walks per day on a very busy day, and while more is no doubt better, that would likely suffice for an adult dog. I'm thinking of the habits of my friends who live in Chicago, and how they handle their dogs. They often have more walks, but that's their minimum, and their adult dogs do fine with that. So that's a minimum, but if she's getting regular walks, she should be ok and not need the pads. But if you've trained her to just go in the house whenever, well, then, that's what she's doing now.

    Also dogs need a schedule. You need a feeding schedule especially when you can't take her out whenever she needs to go out, and you need to know how long after eating she needs to go, and you need to work with that. You can set your feeding times according to when you can walk her. She should have regular walk times, too, so she knows how long she has to wait.

    I'd take her to the vet for a check up too, but really it sounds like the dog has been trained to go in the house (not a good idea) and now she's doing it, just not where you want her to. The problem is more that she's been trained to go in the house, and what she needs is retraining, like a puppy, and a set schedule.

    On an unrelated note, though, the "terrible twos" are a real thing, which is a change in behavior as the dog becomes mature. It often is when Shibas become much more intolerant of other dogs. But it usually does not have anything to do with potty training.

  • kagurarapkagurarap
    Posts: 208
    Hey guys,

    Thanks for all the input. It's only been a few days but so far it looks like reviewing crate training and limiting her access to the rest of the apartment is paying off - this way I can keep an eye on her and see the signs when it happens like when she starts walking around in circles or looking kind of restless, I know she has to go versus she goes off to the kitchen and does it there.

    Also dealing with the thunder still - it's been raining and thundering for days in a row and more coming this week. T^T Thanks for the links - I tried wrapping her in a pillow case (around her torso, her legs were free) and she didn't really seem to calm down. Tried to put music on to distract her and it helped a little but not really. In the end, I just let her lay at my feet with a little pillowy nook I created for her by my bed while she goes through it. *sigh*

    Anyone have any luck with calming treats? I've seen them for Blue Buffalo but they're expensive and I want to make sure they're worth it.

    Taking her to the vet most likely this weekend in case. Her behavior's been improving - it seems like the bulk of her strangeness aside from her confused potty habits are coming from the barrage of storms and fireworks in the area the past few days. Also gotta get her updated on her heartworm meds. So much to doooo.
  • NahatalieNahatalie
    Posts: 363
    Glad she's getting back to normal, nobody likes to come across a stray poop! (Only the cats do that in this house - they're long haired and sometimes a nugget sticks to them and falls somewhere away from the litter tray later on - gross lol)

    Anyway, I just wanted to pick up on the free feeding. We free fed ours until very recently, I didn't see a reason to dictate meals times really. We only do mealtimes now (twice a day) because he's raw-fed now and actually finishes everything in his bowl whereas before he watched the food go down, gave it a sniff and walked away looking at you as if to sat "meh". Luckily, whatever time of day we take him for a walk, he poops about 10 minutes in. Then again 5 minutes later and he's done for the day. Since starting raw, he only poops once. And it's smaller.

    Hopefully Tali just needed a nudge in the right direction by reistating the puppy routine for a bit, they do go through funny phases don't they sometimes!



  • RikkaRikka
    Posts: 1501
    Since starting raw, he only poops once. And it's smaller.


    The beauty of raw food. :D
    image
    Lauren, living with a 4 y/o Shiba named after a scientist. ☆
  • Banjo is almost one and turning into a jerk. If he doesn't like the walking route I've picked, he'll freeze. He seems to have forgotten every command, and when I am home and not providing him entertainment, he will go be destructive. A few months ago he would simply bring me a toy and we'd play fetch or tug alllllll day. I LOVE playing with him and never say no if he brings a toy so I don't know why all of a sudden he is behaving this way. =(

    ETA:

    I am kind of at my wit's end here. I take good care of him, spend every minute I can with him, feed him the best I can, make sure he never wants for anything, and it seems like all he wants to do is piss me off.


    Post edited by BanjoTheBetaDog at 2014-08-11 13:43:54
  • AntoinetteAntoinette
    Posts: 887
    @Banjo-I am sorry you're going through this with your furry one. Quake tried freezing and I pulled him gently and told him "let's go"and when he started walking gave him the command "heel" and that works in that I give him a training treat when he starts heeling and then he just continues. I let him sniff when I want to stop and I control the walk. I went back to basics and to have a nothing is free program. He won't get anything without having to earn it-whether it's praise, a treat, getting to play fetch, getting fed a meal, etc. I find that when I am spoiling him less and directing him more he behaves just fine. These shibas are like a three year old kid on crack and super smart so they know how to train you if you let that happen!! LOL! Seriously-You might have to crate him when you can't keep an eye on him when you're at home and then let him out and praise non-destructive behavior and put him in a time out for destructive behavior if you catch him in the act. I know you're such a dedicated Pet Dad and know that everything will work out.
  • He's a teenager. Think of it like that, and know, also, that he'll get through this, and he'll be back to the Banjo you know and love. All dogs go through it at some point, and it's very frustrating--you've gotten through the puppy phase, and you're expecting smooth sailing, and then suddenly--what happened to my sweet puppy and who replaced him with this dog who ignores me?

    For the destructiveness, I'd start recrating again as Antoinette suggested. And yes, some going back to basics, esp. on the walks, might have to begin again.



    I'm pretty lazy about this kind of stuff, though, because I find it frustrating dealing with a dog who knows what to do but prefers not to, so since I know this phase will pass, I just resign myself to it and don't do anything in particular different (except for management, like crating more if necessary). I know they'll come through it and be my lovely dog again, but even better (more mature) on the other side. Just keep working on the basics he already knows. If you can get him interested in new learning exercises, that can be great for you both, but if not, just rest assured he will be ok in the end, and you just need to get through this.

  • He is back in the crate when I am not home, but crating him while I am home seems cruel.... you aren't suggesting I crate him when I am home, right?

    How long does this last? I was a good teenager (no seriously, I was, you can ask my mom) so I can't even relate to this. I feel like he hates me!

  • I am suggesting you crate him while you are home if you can't watch him and he is being destructive. Like this is what I have to do with my 1 year old Akita girl. I used to not be able to even leave her uncrated if I was in the bathroom for 3 minutes, but she's improved. But if I go out of the room, I crate her. If I go outside, I crate her. If I'm not here and my husband is watching a movie, she gets crated.

    Otherwise, I really have to keep an eye on her, and if she starts to get destructive, she goes into the crate with a toy or bully stick, at least for 5 minutes or so. If she's calm, (or I'm done doing whatever claimed my attention), I let her back out. I have to do this because, you know, we can't be watching them every second, and she starts chewing on stuff IMMEDIATELY. And she doesn't want the approved chew items. She wants the sofa or the rug, or she wants to get on the table and take my husband's wallet and chew it (twice she did that, both times after I told him not to leave her unattended even for 5 minutes). In our case, more exercise and play helps, but I suspect Banjo is getting plenty of that. But even so, she is not trustworthy.

    So yes, I am suggesting crating him, but only if he is caught in the act of destruction or if you can't watch him right at that moment. My girl is just getting a lot of brief time outs in the crate these days, and that's kind of what I'm thinking of for Banjo.

    But I also have a huge crate (big even for an Akita) with room for her to stretch out and play in. You could also try a bigger create or an ex-pen if you think he needs more room. It's just a way of managing the somewhat inevitable bad behavior you might be running into.

    eta: and she's going through a terrible mouthy phase, and is biting A LOT, so she gets time-outs for biting, because she only does it when she's overly excited, so time in the crate helps her soothe herself and calm down.

    And how long does it last? Varies from dog to dog. Several months? Sometimes as long as 6 months to a year? I don't know because I always forget....there was my sweet dog and what happened to him, and then suddenly I realize they haven't been a problem for a long time, and look how wonderful my dog is again, and I realize I didn't keep track of how long it lasted....
    Post edited by shibamistress at 2014-08-11 16:14:25
  • AntoinetteAntoinette
    Posts: 887
    @Banjo-can you keep him in the same room with you while you're at home like maybe with a baby gate so you can keep a close eye and you mark any destructive behavior right on the spot? If he tries to chew on the coffee table leg you tell him "ARG" and close off that area to him. I understand that you can't relate to this since you were a good teenager and probably even a good toddler. I on the other hand was an incorrigible toddler and sneaky teenager so I think he is testing boundaries and he does not hate you. He is just behaving like the pain in the butt teenager. When you are driving home try to picture him being the same darling Banjo of before and please don't think of him as being naughty. I feel this will pass and you two will be wonderful together again. I raised a son by myself after his Dad died when my son was six years old so I have experience to handle Quake and his teenager antics!!! Again, please know he doesn't hate you. He loves you and is looking to you to hold the boundaries. You both will be fine.
  • So it's clearly a phase... we went to a friends house (he has a bulldog friend 2 months younger who lives there. She has no social manners but Banjo has known her his whole life so she gets a free pass). He listened, stayed when i told him to and generally behaved wonderfully

    (not withstanding when we ended paytime and banjo was in a stay and his poop monster friend charged him to play some more... i stopped him and he started tugging at my shorts)

    and on the walk home he was social and obedient again. I think he is choosing not to embarrass me in public and only at home.

    How long is this phase? Weeks, not months right?
  • AntoinetteAntoinette
    Posts: 887
    I'm so happy to hear that Banjo was being wonderful again at least in public but that's a great start. Quake's phase lasted about two weeks and it was super frustrating for me so I understand what you're going through. Now and then he'll have one day of testing boundaries but he gets back to being well behaved pretty quickly because I set boundaries immediately.
  • Kobe1468Kobe1468
    Posts: 1587
    Kobe is 26 mos. and is starting to act out a bit. Like Banjo, he will freeze during walks, sometimes laying down right in the middle of the road.(thankfully we live in the sticks...not much traffic!). I'm constantly having to find new and creative ways to regain his attention, yet slowly loosing the battle of wills. Understanding it's just a phase, I'm doing my best to control my frustration...hoping it will pass quickly.

    Thankfully he hasn't shown any intolerance to other dogs(yet). And he's actually very good in the house.

    Not holding my breath, but so far the 2's are manageable.



    "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened."
  • fisticuffsfisticuffs
    Posts: 148
    Kiri did (and still sometimes does) that laying down thing. It used to happen if I was going in a direction away from something she wanted, but now it only happens when there's someone walking close behind us and she wants to let them pass us (so she can watch them, I'm guessing).
    My trainer had a suggestion for this behavior, she told me to put a queue on that laying-down
    -on-the-sidewalk move and use it whenever I thought she was about to do it, then click and treat for her doing it. Separately, start working indoors on a command that means to get up and walk with me from a down stay, something not too common, but simple like "Let's walk". Don't use the leash indoors when working on this, but stand near her facing the same direction she is, like we would on a walk. Eventually, we graduated to using this command when she would do the down on walks. It worked! My trainer is R+, so she almost always suggests redirection first and if that doesn't work, then we're putting a queue to the "bad" behavior and then queueing the opposite behavior, or what I'd rather she was doing instead of that.
    We had a problem with Kiri taking off outside when we opened the door and it was getting dangerous. Her recall wasn't getting better fast enough, so we worked on setting boundaries in the front yard instead. She still runs outside excitedly when we get home, but she didn't take off like she used to. Her recall is almost reliable now (not enough that I let her off-leash completely in an unfenced area).
    I've learned that training with a Shiba is less me telling her what to do and more compromising, lol.

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