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Attacking puppies
  • RedShastaRedShasta
    Posts: 38
    Post edited by RedShasta at 2013-06-08 01:37:46
  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 3495
    how old is your Shiba?

    I'm assuming he's an older dog? I won't be
    Surprised if its just the common Shiba intolerance that grows with age.
  • RedShastaRedShasta
    Posts: 38
  • RikkaRikka
    Posts: 1501
    Post edited by Rikka at 2013-06-08 02:41:07
  • tatonkatatonka
    Posts: 1210
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4786
  • Koji's momKoji's mom
    Posts: 632
    I had always heard about the "puppy pass" - supposedly where older dogs give puppies a pass for being annoying or rude - is that not really true?

    I feel lucky now Koji didn't get stomped...I had false security knowing he had that pass...yikes..

    PS My neighbors dog who is not a puppy licks Koji's teeth - kind of like an obsession - lick lick lick...and Koji raises his lips and allows it but makes a horrible whine-y noise...an extreme protest - but loves the neighbor so much he puts up with it.....(it's actually hilarious)

    That is random - don't mean to hijack:)
  • RedShastaRedShasta
    Posts: 38
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3664
  • MarijeMarije
    Posts: 114
    When Shiro first started getting intolerant with strange dogs (he was a little over 1 year old, which is 4 years ago), he started with young dogs. Even a really young puppy once.
    First it was a snark, but it got progressively worse to the point where he would chase them. Not worth the risk. He drew blood on 2 dogs, 1 in the park and 1 that was off leash (the really young puppy) on the street who came in his face when Shiro was on leash, so now we only go to the park if there are old buddies or no dogs at all in there. For some reason dogs he knows from puppyhood are not on his hate list, nor are calm dogs.
    At the same time, Shiro and I have been taking (rally) obedience classes for years now, and he has never shown any aggression towards the other dogs in class. It is really a 'don't invade my personal space while being too energetic' thing and I believe his personal space became the size of half the dog park, because we went there almost every day.
    Anyway, I hope this was a one time thing with Tierce!
  • shibamistressshibamistress
    Posts: 5171
  • curlytailscurlytails
    Posts: 2779
  • JuniJuni
    Posts: 1269
    There's a dog at Juni's daycare that likes to lick the other dogs faces. Juni hates it, I think it is way too much intrusion to her body zone. The trainers used to move that dog when we show up, but now she has finally learned and is very careful around Juni.
    I keep writing here in different threads to warn puppy owners: a lot of adult dogs do not like puppies and puppy behaviour. Sorry Ian Dunbar, I don't think there is a general puppy pass up to a certain age.
  • RedShastaRedShasta
    Posts: 38
  • XabiXabi
    Posts: 432
  • RedShastaRedShasta
    Posts: 38
    Post edited by RedShasta at 2013-06-11 03:59:23
  • Koji's momKoji's mom
    Posts: 632
    @Xabi - Oy vey! I agree with @Notoriousscrat -It is wrong to put other dogs at risk - if your dog attacked my dog and I found out you knew he had a "hair trigger" yet you kept coming back over and over? If I was bigger and younger my own "hair trigger" might go off and I'd sue you.

    I was going to say it's selfish, but I bet your dog is not even having fun...If he is in attack mode he's probably stressed...take him somewhere where he is relaxed and other people do not have to worry about their puppies...This is EXACTLY why I do not go to the dog park.

    Each incident is "practice" and they get better and better at it...

    I hope I'm misreading your post...
  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 8589
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    I agree with the recent posts and agree @RedShasta is making the right choice to take him out of the dog parks for now. It is not fair to Tierce to put him in situations he clearly isn't ready to handle responsibly and it is not fair to the other dog owners at the park who shouldn't have to worry about that type of conflict possibly damaging their own dogs socialization skills.

    We should always set our dogs up for success, not just try to redirect/avoid failure.
  • knnwangknnwang
    Posts: 645
  • cstrashcstrash
    Posts: 35
    Marty snarled and snapped at a puppy at the farmer's market today. I was shocked an embarrassed. I apologized and explained that he doesn't normally act like this but the owner of the puppy (rightfully) gave me the nastiest look. Marty is 1 yr 8 months so I guess we're entering the stage where he's could become intolerant of other dogs. I thought by socializing him at the park and day care that he might not have such an issue. This is the first time something like this has happened and thankfully both dogs were on leash so no harm was done. But now I'm unsure as to whether I should bring Marty somewhere again where such a situation could occur. Maybe it was just this one puppy that bothered him? Maybe it was because he was on leash? I definitely don't want to set him up for failure by putting him into a situation where he could hurt another dog, but I also don't want to assume he can never go to the park again. I'm just not sure how to "test" him.
  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 3495
    @cstrash

    You can elaborate more and explain the situation. What made him snap?

    Yes shibas get intolerant with age, but you can't just jump to that excuse, something must have set him off
  • cstrashcstrash
    Posts: 35
    I'm really not sure. We were walking and an owner with her puppy approached. It looked like maybe an Australian cattle dog, pretty young, maybe 4-6 months? I'm not sure if it was a male or female. The puppy was extremely mellow, no jumping or licking. The puppy wanted to meet Marty so I allowed him to approach it and they smelled faces first. Marty smelled the dog for a good 5-10 seconds before he growled and snapped. I did not see any signs, but I'll admit I had more of my attention on the puppy because it was very cute. I did not hear a warning growl at all and once I pulled him away he did not attempt to go back towards the puppy. I probably wouldn't worry as much but the look this woman gave me was so awful. I'm sure she was worried for her new pup as I would be if Marty was that young. I think I could've paid a bit more attention to any signs Marty was showing, but I didn't know to expect that he'd do anything. I can definitely try to be very attentive to him when meeting other dogs but since he hasn't done this before I'm not sure I'd know exactly what to look for. He also went from sniffing to his snap pretty quickly... 5 or so seconds, which isn't much time. I'm hoping its more of a one-occurrence but I don't want to find out the hard way that he has a problem.

    I think you're right, Bootz... I can't jump to conclusions and say "I guess he's done meeting dogs!" I'm just still surprised that it happened and I'm trying to think of the best way for our next encounter with other dogs to go.
  • omgtainomgtain
    Posts: 68
  • RedShastaRedShasta
    Posts: 38
  • shibamistressshibamistress
    Posts: 5171
  • RedShastaRedShasta
    Posts: 38
    Post edited by RedShasta at 2014-06-28 19:58:56
  • millerb7millerb7
    Posts: 132
    So far Chloe is very tolerant (14 months old). She goes to the dog park. 3 days a week. The only thing she doesn't like is when the bigger dogs all run up and get all over her. She'll turn around, stand real rigid and chomp her teeth. Never bites them, just chomps the air. They just walk away and she's fine. It only occurs if it's 3-5 dogs all ganging up on her.

    She LOVES puppies. Usually she lays on her side or back and rubs her head all over them.

    She is a rough player though and luckily our dog park has about a 50:1 husky:other dog ratio lol. So the owners generally don't care since the huskies are rough players as well.

    I also definitely find that meeting other new dogs is WAY easier odd leash. She doesn't feel confined and can roam around them.
  • Sarms802Sarms802
    Posts: 10
    Post edited by Sarms802 at 2014-08-14 16:31:41
  • kiba888kiba888
    Posts: 144
    Kiba has a had a few scuffles with puppies. He is fine with sniffing, but the moment the puppy throws a paw on him or attempts to jump on him. It's a game he does not like and he will snap -- This is the same puppy behavior he use to do that got older dogs pissed off.

  • Post edited by RedShasta at 2014-08-15 01:28:39
  • @RedShasta please keep me posted on how Tierce does with puppies. My dog, Yuki, has been having a problem with puppies (he is a 10 month old puppy) from Day 1, and I'd love to be able to work with him on this!!!!
  • Hello everyone...
    My Kiba has been the sweetest Shiba since I brought him home. It is normally just me and him and my girl-friend. He gets along really well with everyone he meets. We have been going to puppy class and our last class is this saturday. He has done great at the class. I have also been taking him to the puppy park, where he plays and occasionally wrestles and plays a bit rough with other dogs/puppies of his size. He's only gotten into one fight (seemed like one) and it was with a pug that was not neutered (Kiba was not neutered until this wednesday). Kiba always seemed to like to try and bully the other dogs/puppies that werent neutered my guess to show dominance.

    Yesterday, my girlfriend got a Sesame Shiba puppy that is about 4 months old. We tried introducing them outside but Kiba just wanted to play with her i thought...so I figured they would get along. Then we took them inside to our apartment and the fun began. Puppy would be minding her own business and he would not leave her alone and they would just bark and growl at each other. He would sniff her...then out of nowhere he lunged at her while the puppy was on my girlfriends lap and kind of nipped at her. Then she would go into the kennel i had (travel size) and he would just lay right outside watching her as if to show her that he is the boss and she is not to come out at all.

    I wasn't much concerned as i figured things would cooldown and eventually they'd get along...but this morning, my girlfriend was putting the puppy on the leash and for the split second i let go of Kiba, he went straight for the puppy and attacked the puppy and grabbed the puppies side. Of course, the puppy did the Shiba scream which sounded horrifying but there was no damage done...

    Does this mean that Kiba does not like this new puppy and the puppy will never be welcomed at our apartment?

    thanks,

    Thomas
  • They will likely be fine in the long-term, but you need to introduce them and get them used to each other much more slowly than you started with. In Kiba's eyes, his home is being invaded by a strange dog. In the puppy's eyes, they are in a new environment with new people and a dog that seems like it doesn't want the puppy around. It is stressful right now to both of them. Try keeping them in separate rooms with a baby gate separating them so they can only interact through the gate. Once they can tolerate each other well through the gate, let them be in the same room, but leashed and in your presence only until they both show they are comfortable with each other. Then try letting them off leash together in the same room, again only in your presence, to see how they do unrestrained. It will take some time and effort, but will be worth it in the long run. Good luck with your new addition!
  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 8589
  • Thanks for the replies...we decided to name the new puppy Ari and here is a bit of an update.

    We tried the baby gate and keeping them separated and Kiba would just whine and bark...as if he wanted to be with Ari. It was a rough night, but we kept them separated at night and things calmed down a bit for bed time.

    The weather was great this weekend so we took them to the park so they would be in neutral territory and we would see how they got along. Looks like Kiba is just playing with the Ari in the park and she is having fun as she keeps following him and instigating playful chases with him.

    I did find out though, that the previous owner who had these two shiba puppies (male and female)...our Ari would be the one getting bossed around by the other puppy. Apparently our Ari was always submissive and my guess is that she is really afraid of being bossed around
  • Success with Ari and Kiba. Looks as if the introduction is going well after a slightly rocky start.

    But to get back to beating up puppies at the dog park...

    Benji turned adolescent last Easter weekend (11 months), literally. From Mr Conviviality he turned into a jerk with no respect for senior dogs and no fear of any dog whatever. I banned us from the dog park and immediately instituted @RedShasta's exercise, Look at the Dog. This has been reasonably successful as long as Benji is on the leash. From daily incidents we are down to one or two mild instances a month. He responds well to a Heel command and loves all the treats he gets for complying.

    The problem is that I am unable to exercise Benji adequately without two or three visits a week at the dog park. I live in an apartment with no yard. I can't run with him as he would need or leave him to run free except at the dog park and beside, he adores playing with the other dogs. At 22 months, his behaviour has gradually improved to the point that he plays nicely with most dogs or is able to ignore them. And I see that he is still learning from other dogs. So I have starting going back to the park, cautiously, in the last 6 weeks.

    Trouble is, he still behaves like a jerk when he thinks a dog is too submissive or a puppy. These, he just has to persecute, even going to the extent of nipping their backs. He doesn't bite, so far, but specially in the case of a nervous dog or a puppy, it must be distressing. And I have very little control over him without the leash.

    After read numerous web pages from the positive reinforcement community, including this forum, I am pretty gloomy about the prognosis for Benji. Can I ever hope to improve his behaviour, rather than just managing the problem? Part of the problem is that I don't have any consequence for misbehaviour except catching the miscreant and marching him smartly out of the dog park. Water over a duck's back, I'm afraid; it takes too long for a dog's memory.

    FYI, I had him chemically castrated 6 months ago, with no impact on his behaviour.

    Have any of you ever found a solution for a wilful little Shiba other than exile from the dog park?
  • RikkaRikka
    Posts: 1501
    Post edited by Rikka at 2015-03-23 14:36:13
  • RikkaRikka
    Posts: 1501
  • Rikka, thanks for your input. It was really interesting that you had done everything to socialise Sagan well but he still beats up the "wrong" puppies.

    I wasn't able to do so well with socialising Benji, unfortunately. Where I live, there aren't things like puppy daycare, Amazon, Pet Store, etc. I just had to rely on weekly puppy classes and chance encounters on the street; later, when he was big enough not to get lost at the dog park, I took him there. Still, he seemed to get on pretty well with mixing with all dogs and puppies at the dog park until puberty struck. On Good Friday he suddenly started challenging every male and unmercifully teasing every female he could find. On the day after, he decided to take on a grown-up Anatolian Shepherd; no more dog park for Benji. It still haunts me.

    So it looks as if the behaviour was after all mainly testosterone-driven rather than down to lack of experience. Certainly, he's toned down a lot since then; he now only targets the vulnerable ... :(

    Thomas2388, I am with Rikka here; just because this behaviour is Shiba-normal it doesn't mean it's acceptable. And if I don't fix it someone, dog or human, will eventually do, and on worse terms for Benji.

    I thought of maybe using a soft muzzle as a kind of time-out might be a solution. But I'd first need to catch the little pest. Easier said than done. However, I saw a clip on YouTube showing the exact same behaviour by a young Rottweiler. A smaller dog approached her politely. But the Rottie ignored the cues and started nipping the other dog again and again. The handler intervened but couldn't stop her. So he clipped on a very long lead on the Rottie and was able to correct her. Must try that.

    This could help with Benji's recall too, which is currently miserable.

  • RikkaRikka
    Posts: 1501
  • Rikka, I don't know why Sagan batters puppies but I have a good idea why Benji does. He always picks a sweet, submissive pup. But he's been fine with a very young Akita and one very young Lab - while another slightly older Lab came in for a pummeling; the two were playing ok, then she rolled over. Quick as a flash, Benji struck. He's the same with submissive adult dogs. Sometimes I don't pick up on the submissive types but usually I do; trouble is, Benji is way too far for me to catch him.
    I have been working on his recall since puppy classes and a special recall class. It's all the same, he'll trot (NOT run) up to me if he hasn't anything better to do. Like bullying a puppy, for instance.
  • RedShastaRedShasta
    Posts: 38
  • Well, Benji too is again banned from the dog park. There are too many puppies to risk it at the present. And after reading an article about the ten deadly sins to avoid at dog parks, I realised that my solution of putting Benji on a 60 ft lease wouldn't fly (see my post on March 25). I did, though, find an really excellent article on dogs who bully others from an Atlanta rescue centre that adresses the very problem and gives the solution (s). See below. Of course, currently I don't have any friends with dogs to practice with, so that is on hold for now. So I am going to enrol us in the next recall course, in May. Meantime, I will work even more on Benji's concentration (on me) and his obedience on leash. I'll let you know how it goes.

    Meantime, enjoy the article and wish all to whom it is relevant a Happy Easter!

    http://atlantahumane.org/education-center/bully/
  • spacewolfspacewolf
    Posts: 20
  • RikkaRikka
    Posts: 1501
  • spacewolfspacewolf
    Posts: 20
  • RikkaRikka
    Posts: 1501

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