For all new members, please check out the thread New to the Forum? What to do and forum guidelines.
Article on Linked Neurological Problems in White and Piebald Animals
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4784
    From Border Wars (the linked articles are worth reading, especially those by Temple Grandin). I find this all very interesting when reflecting on Pinto/piebald and Cream in Shibas and the other native Japanese breeds, and those breeders who select for it in Shibas. I have seen some recent requests for rehoming assistance in my area for aggressive/biting cream and pinto marked Shibas, so reading this is particularly interesting for me. And before anybody knee-jerks about me not liking creams, I will have you know my favorite little Shiba right now is a very smart and wonderful cream:

    http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/2013/05/why-dalmatians-are-a-train-wreck.html

    White Skin Related Shyness, Temple Grandin:

    http://www.grandin.com/references/horse.genetics.html

    http://books.google.com/books?id=aMVmhqpILOAC&pg=PA78&lpg=PA78&dq=Animals+in+Translation+Grandin+Dalmatian&source=bl&ots=_ZCChzB4Ij&sig=YLYO6fdVLLdokMRZn0kSbIfEjpg&hl=en&sa=X&ei=uh6kUZCmFojTigKt6ID4AQ&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Animals in Translation Grandin Dalmatian&f=false
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
  • RikkaRikka
    Posts: 1501
    "Being a Dalmatian is what is wrong with Dalmatians. No amount of finger pointing at popularity bubbles, Walt Disney, backyard breeders or any other cause can change this. To be a Dalmatian is to be prone to deafness and to suffer from mental disorders caused by insufficient melanin."

    Powerful.

    I enjoyed the articles. Thank you for sharing, Lindsay!
    image
    Lauren, living with a 4 y/o Shiba named after a scientist. ☆
  • shibamistressshibamistress
    Posts: 5171
    Interesting! I passed the links on to someone I know who has a very fearful white dog (a mix that she took in after it had been abandoned). He really fits into this white/pink skin issue, and for awhile she was worried he was deaf, but he's not.

    Do a lot of the creams have the white skin too? I've never met one in real life so don't know.

    I wonder why it is not a problem in dogs that are traditionally white--say Kishu or to go out of the NKs, samoyeds? I'm guessing they don't carry both genes, then, or that they do not have the true white effect, not the white skin too? Or as we've talked about before, perhaps one of the reasons the cream is not preferred is the worry it would take over the breed, and thus risk causing problems like this? But would that mean that all white dogs carry this problematic piebald allele, or can whiteness be caused by something else (not problematic) in some breeds? I don't know enough about the genetics of it to really know. (We need Ayk here on this!)

    I wonder also, about the pinto in AAs? I don't know that I've heard anything about this

    (Actually I see you cross posted on the NK forum and Ayk responded, so I'm going over there to read it!)
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4784
    The creams I have seen have lite pink/white-ish skin under their fur, but liver colored noses, nails, and eye rims, anus, but that sometimes darkens or lightens with a coat blow or time of year.
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
    Post edited by lindsayt at 2013-05-31 13:43:58
  • jennjenn
    Posts: 856
    All very interesting. Thanks for sharing, Lindsay. Adding Temple Grandin's book to my to-read list. :)
    Jenn, Shiba Slave to Rigby / http://hellorigby.com
  • StaticNfuzzStaticNfuzz
    Posts: 1814

    Interesting, although I am not sure I fully agree with all that she writes. I personally struggle with buying in to all of Temple Grandin's many hypothesis and statements. One could poke some holes in a few things I think from what I skimmed from the links themselves. I would say extremes in anything are probably not a good thing when we look at breeding programs etc. A lot factors into behavior/temperament in general so weighing on just color alone seems a bit overblown. I do see her point on avoiding heavy line breeding in regard to pigment, but again it isn't as simple as it seems in my opinion.

    I wonder were she got her info about neurological disorders and light skin etc etc, there isn't a scientific reference to her statement? Also, I have seen rage syndrome in liver dogs too so I am not sure it's light skin, white coat, melatonin related to deep brain issue for all mammals. Plenty of mutations cause problems and that often has nothing to do with color.

    Alternatively, does Temple Grandin mention the ratio of skittish behavior in all black animals? (In all fairness if one is looking at one color, in good science you have to look at the other extreme.) I have seen plenty of black herbivores i.e. All black beef cattle (Angus), as well as black sheep, and goats, they can be darned skittish, wacky, and often quite aggressive. None of them had a hint of pink skin, spots, or were born white. They were all black with black pigment from birth.


    As far as humans, we see plenty of blonde blue eyed humans too, and they do not appear any less healthy or less mentally healthy (dumb blonde jokes aside) than the rest of the population so it seems. Scandinavia appears to be thriving without a full health crisis in their majority blonde population. Maybe there is a government conspiracy to cover up wacky blondes in N. Europe (LOL).

    Snf
    PS: I have not had any issues with (white) dogs, based on color, that I have encountered within the Shiba breed or any other dogs for that matter.
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4784
    It relates to melatonin in the brain apparently, and light skinned people do have melatonin, just as dark skinned individuals do, so that comparison is not really sound (light skinned humans to piebald horses).
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
  • StaticNfuzzStaticNfuzz
    Posts: 1814
    Maybe I misunderstood, I thought Temple Grandin mentioned something about humans too and light pigment...

    Whatever.....Interesting read though..
    Snf
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4784
    You are right tho, I would like to see some references and studies, and there are so many variables outside of color. But whatevs :)
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
  • DrySeDrySe
    Posts: 101
    interesting read. also interesting is Tsuki (red) is way more "skittish" than Plue (white). Tsuki is also a lot smarter than Plue so I always joke around with my wife that Plue is too dumb to care while Tsuki is too smart. He keeps his distance and scopes everything out before getting comfortable with new people/dogs/places.
    Post edited by DrySe at 2013-05-31 19:37:37
  • Kobe1468Kobe1468
    Posts: 1587
    A very interesting article. Thx for posting.

    I, like Shibamistress, was wondering why breeds like Samoyeds are not effected. I looked into it just a bit, and could only come up with breeds such as Samoyeds and even poodles can be effected by generalized and X linked PRA. Doesn't sound like the same issue, but am not an expert. I do know Samoyeds have more black pigmentation around eyes, lips, etc...

    I linked the Wikipedia description for Dalmations, includes many interesting links.

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatian_(dog)

    "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened."
  • DebDeb
    Posts: 286
    Interesting articles, thank you for posting them. Temple Grandin's accomplishments are truly remarkable for anyone and especially someone afflicted with autism.

    Part of the Russian fox experiment she talked about is covered on a PBS Nova show, "Dogs Decoded". The ditty relating to numbers of white socks on a horse has been around for a very long time and I'm not sure it has anything to do with temperament. White hooves are not as tough wearing as black hooves and maybe that is why you "pass them by", the ditty doesn't really say. I do think tight line breeding to select for only one attribute in any animal breed is a colossal mistake. Each of these issues she mentions with regard to interbreeding to select for one feature.

    Cream Shibas are not albino, so I'm not sure this really applies to the information in the article.

  • CrystalWolfCrystalWolf
    Posts: 235
    I have a white cat with pink skin, one blue eye one green eye. She is not deaf, and not really skittish or shy around strangers, but she doesnt like them petting her, i think thats mostly because she is a cat though.

    But in the case of dogs i really do believe this to be true from what I have seen throughout the past. I have only had dark colored fur dogs but the people I know that have dogs with white fur I have seen them be aggressive (due to being scared) more often than not.

    It was definatly a interesting read on the dalmations. I did know they were prob to going deaf and some dalmations I have know also went blind.
    Post edited by CrystalWolf at 2013-05-31 23:37:54
  • shibamistressshibamistress
    Posts: 5171
    What we established on the NK forum, from those well versed in genetics, is that it is the piebald gene that is causing problems, and some dogs--even white dogs--have what is called extreme spotting. That is part of the problem. As is another problem gene related to color, double merle (which doesn't show up in NKs).

    Creams are likely different than these two, so some dogs that are traditionally white may not in fact have the problem genes.
  • CrystalWolfCrystalWolf
    Posts: 235
    I am not to well versed in genetics, most of the time it confuses me and I have to re read it alot although I am extremely interested in it :)
  • JuniJuni
    Posts: 1249
    Being Scandinavian with a cream dog I feel that I can't really argue believably here ;-) although I'm not blonde actually, but from only browsing the article I wonder if it is not other things than the colour that are important in the behaviour, like being deaf could certainly cause skittishness.
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3664
    In a link posted on the NK side, http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/white.htm, I saw this little section that will help explain the Samoyeds:

    White can also occur due to dilution of phaeomelanin by the I locus. Phaeomelanin is red pigment, and the I locus can dilute it to cream or sometimes white. Breeds such as the Samoyed have this second type of dilution, so they appear completely white but in fact it's not due to white spotting. They are in fact recessive red (so they cannot produce any black pigment) with dilution of their red pigment to white, resulting in a solid white dog with black nose pigment.

    The main way to tell a dog with extreme white spotting apart from a dog with phaeomelanin dilution is to look at the pigment on the nose, lips and eyerims. A dog with extreme white spotting is likely to be missing some pigment in these areas, so they will be partly or completely pink. A dog with phaeomelanin dilution will have solid black in all these areas (possibly with a dudley nose, which are common on dogs with dilution - see the nose page).



    At the bottom of the page, there is a selection of images, including one of a "shiba" (something looks off to me, not to mention the show style posing). They state, which coincides with my thoughts on creams:

    Note the slight cream sheen on the coat of the German Spitz, Samoyed and Shiba, and the jet black lip and eye rim pigment on all of them. The Shiba has a dudley nose, often associated with recessive red.


    Here is the description they give for "Dudley Nose":

    Sometimes, in specific breeds such as the Bull Terrier, the term "dudley nose" is used to describe a dog with a pink nose due to high white on the face (see butterfly nose above). However, usually it's used to describe a dog with pigment loss on its nose.
    Generally the pigment loss on a dudley nose is in the middle of the nose, spreading outwards to cover almost all of the nose on some dogs. The pigment loss causes the nose to become lighter in these areas, usually ending up as a dull pink. Dudley noses never lose their pigment completely and are never as bright pink as butterfly noses or even the pink noses found on liver dogs. There is also always a darker area remaining around the edge of the nose.
    Dudley noses are generally seen on dogs with solid black noses only, simply because the lighter pigment on liver, isabella and blue dogs means that areas with pigment loss are very hard to see. They are, however, very common on black-nosed dogs, including show dogs.



    So, it could be said that the cream shiba is not white but actually a red that has been diluted.
    image
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4784
    Well, creams are born from Black and Tan parents quite frequently, and they would be genetically Black and Tan as well.

    Good explanation of Dudley Nose!
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
  • Kobe1468Kobe1468
    Posts: 1587
    Thx @Calia for explaining about Samoyeds, regarding this issue. I'm so glad there are so many people on here with some knowledge of these sort of genetic issues. I do my best to learn, but get things SO mixed up!
    "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened."
  • fisticuffsfisticuffs
    Posts: 148
    I'm really surprised no one has mentioned Waardenburg's disease here yet as it is very closely related to this exact thing.
    I learned about it because I'm a ferret owner. We had a ferret with a biting issue and suspected something else was going on. He was was properly socialized and none of the others had this issue. The vet determined that he was deaf and mentioned Waardenburg's being a possibility. He was all white with black eyes (known as a dark-eyes white or DEW) which is one of the color combinations listed as being indicative of Waardenburg's, along with "blazes" (a white patch on the front of their forehead) and "pandas" (white shoulders with a dark head and body). Waardenburg's ferrets also have a flatter, wider head, something that is easily noticed by those who are around ferrets often, but hard to recognize otherwise. Deafness occurs in 75% of cases and behavioral issues are common. I have since had 2 more ferrets with Waardenburg's (another DEW and a "panda"), the panda was mostly deaf, sweet-natured and dumb as a door nail. He died of juvenile lymphosarcoma before his first birthday (lymphosarcoma is common in Waardenburg's).
    The thing that I found most interesting about this disorder is that people can have it as well and they display the same physical characteristics as ferrets do - a white streak in the hair on the front middle area of their head, and a wider skull shape. People with Waardenburg's almost always have light blue eyes with very little pigment. I know that dogs can have it and they suspect high levels of deafness in blue-eyed, white-coated cats to be Waardenburg's.
    I'm wondering if Waardenburg's isn't an extreme version of what this article is talking about?
  • fisticuffsfisticuffs
    Posts: 148

    Maybe I misunderstood, I thought Temple Grandin mentioned something about humans too and light pigment...

    Whatever.....Interesting read though..
    Snf



    This is the post that made me think of Waardenburg's. And people were mentioned in parentheses in the quoted selection right after the socked horse rhyme (I'd paste it, but my phone won't let me paste here?).
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4784
    This is the version I always heard:

    One foot buy him
    Two feet try him,
    Three feet shun him,
    Four feet don't run him.
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
  • Bump

    I need to carry my phone more... I just saw the coolest thing... an albino shiba!!

    It wasn't a cream shiba as I first thought. The owner pointed out her dog's eyes were red, and since he was all white, they think he is an albino. They didn't DNA test him, but they do think he is a shiba. Has anyone heard of albino dogs?

    He is a rescue so his history is unknown.

  • Kira_KiraKira_Kira
    Posts: 2482
    Probably a mix. To my knowledge, there is no such thing as an albino Shiba.

    Shame on you for not carrying a phone and taking a pic! L-) ;)
    Cynthia, Proudly owned by Kira
    imageimage
    Kira the Cream Shiba Inu 吉良 - Facebook Page
    Follow Kira on Instagram! Kira_the_cream_shiba_inu
    Kira's Life Story & Photo Thread - Chronicles of Kira

    “Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole.”
  • NikkitineNikkitine
    Posts: 776
    I had a question regarding nose colors for piebald/pinto Shibas. I've never seen a pink nose on anything other than creamies, but it seems like Tali's beginning to develop a pink nose. Could this be part of her genetics since she does have more white on her legs than typical reds or could it be something external like the bowl that she eats out of or the food? She eats out of a ceramic bowl and is on Wellness Core puppy with salmon oil.

    I'm not particularly worried about it since it doesn't seem to be bothering her, I just found it interesting. Has anyone encountered a pink nose on a non-cream Shiba before?

    image

    image
    image
    Post edited by Nikkitine at 2015-03-01 00:19:49
  • Kobe1468Kobe1468
    Posts: 1587
    Could just be snow nose. Kobe has a small pink spot on his nose as well.

    Don't know about the genetic aspects of what could cause it...know others will!!
    "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened."
  • JuniJuni
    Posts: 1249
    I have seen pink nose on a b/t Shiba, but it was pink and black. So it happens but should be considered a fault I guess.
    And we like to think of Juni's nose as brown and not pink :-)
  • Kira_KiraKira_Kira
    Posts: 2482
    I like to call Kira's nose "Mauve" - it sounds fancy :))
    Cynthia, Proudly owned by Kira
    imageimage
    Kira the Cream Shiba Inu 吉良 - Facebook Page
    Follow Kira on Instagram! Kira_the_cream_shiba_inu
    Kira's Life Story & Photo Thread - Chronicles of Kira

    “Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole.”
  • SushiShibaSushiShiba
    Posts: 205
    ^ Hahaha Kira's just all kinds of fabulous lol. :D

    I don't know if this counts, but I saw a picture of a B&T and I think it had a freckled nose - black and pink. I highly doubt it's photoshopped, but for all I know, they may have painted it on, lol.
  • NikkitineNikkitine
    Posts: 776
    I'm totally in love with Kira haha. It was always a dream of mine to have a cream Shiba but you know how fate likes to spin it.

    Thanks for all the responses everyone, it might be snow nose since the weather has been chillier as of late. It probably won't be black again but it doesn't matter. Pink, black, brown, mauve, or spotted, all Shiba noses (and butts) are adorable.
    image
    Post edited by Nikkitine at 2015-03-01 17:58:19

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

In this Discussion

Who's Online (2)