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Goldendoodles do you agree with the breed?
  • I get it, but did you have to use a dying puppy in the example? =)

    That makes sense. There is just so much conflicting information out there so I thought I'd ask.
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4786
  • kalicokalico
    Posts: 55
    I have zero issue with mutts (what these so-called designer breeds are). I do however have a problem with people intentionally breeding mutts for nothing more than profit, which is essentially what these "breeders" are doing. The point of showing is to prove the conformation of your breeding stock to the standard. If there is no standard as is the case with a golden doodle, then you can't show them. That said, there are still other titles they could get such as obedience, tracking, agility, flyable etc. to prove there is a point to their breeding. What I don't get about the health testing, is what are they health testing for? The breed is only a couple generations old, so do they even know what diseases are prevalent? With Shibas, breeders know what problems there are with the eyes and hips. Dobermans are known for their heart problems, so they get checked for DCM, von Wilebrands disease, plus their hips and eyes. What health issues are common in golden doodles? To me, "health tested" is just a part of the get-rich-quick scheme.

    The whole "doodle" craze has put the poodle breeders into a frenzy. I've heard of some poodle breeders spaying or neutering their pet quality dogs even before ether go home at 8 weeks to keep people from breeding them. Since the litter can't be registered, the breeder would never even know if the dog was bred.

    If people want a mutt or mixed breed, go to the shelter. I had a mixed breed that I pulled from a shelter, and I absolutely loved him to death. He was an awesome dog that I was hoping to do flyable with, but he passed away way before his time. There are millions of dogs just like that in the shelter that need homes. Many of them are also the designer breeds people demand. Since a doodle or whatever mix isn't likely to be from a reputable breeder, you may as well save the $1000 and get one from a rescue instead. It'll be of the same quality, and you'll know the individual temperament. When you pay $1000+ for a dog from a reputable breeder, that cost covers the showing and health testing of the parents, stud fees, vaccs for the pups, any other performance title fees. $1000 for a doodle pays for nothing. Chances are they probably own both the golden and the poodle, so theres no stud fee either.

    A friend of mine had a doodle who recently passed away and he had some serious wires crossed. He was a rescue, and they got him as a pup and from day 1, he was. She struggled with putting him down due to his aggression, but he instead passed away a few months ago due to liver failure.
  • I'll pretty much just echo what others are saying but.....

    In an ideal world when you want to have "x,y,and z" characteristics in a dog; you would take 2 or more breeds and find excellent examples of those breeds in form, function, and health and then combine them to get your desired fit in look, function, and temperament. Essentially every dog breed, Shibas included, came to be because of this very thing. In theory if you were to take two complementary breeds (again near perfect specimens of those breeds) and x them, the first generation of offspring would be healthier and live longer with a more balanced temperament of the breeds.

    In actuality what happens for most of these dogs is a bunch of folks jump on the bandwagon for $$$, grab any 2 purebreds they can get for cheep and X them and...bam...offspring that is made without regard to form, function, or health.

    If one of these X breeds is really what you want there are rescues. If you are willing to spend $$ many people are trying to make either/or the goldendoodle/labradoodle a breed by itself and if you do A LOT of research you can find a great breeder. I think Australia would be your best bet.

    Ideally the breeder would be using as their stock dogs "rejects" from very reputable breeders that found that maybe a specific golden retriever although healthy and beautiful wouldn't move the breeds genes forwards because of a very small visual "defect" (coloring, etc).

    For me it's just way too big of a risk for a dog that will most likely do nothing but pad a bad breeders pockets when you would easily be able to find a dog with similar size, look, and temperament with the likelihood of much better health.
    Post edited by oneluckymug at 2014-03-27 23:18:12
  • Kit_Keet_Kit_Keet_
    Posts: 206
    I don't think it's fair (or accurate) to say that a dog is going to be healthier because it is mixed. As Dabish and Sunyata pointed out, you have no idea where the genetic lines are.

    We have both a purebred shiba (who we know, unfortunately, has a minor luxating patella) and a VERY mixed breed rescued from the local humane society, and pulled from Oklahoma.

    Our rescue is such a mix that the OK vet had her listed as a Corgi mix as a puppy. It has since become very clear that she is definitely NOT a Corgi. To say that she is going to be healthier than our Shiba simply because she is mixed would be remiss. We have absolutely no idea what is in her genetic line!

    So far we've been relatively lucky and have had no major health concerns with either dog, and I definitely hope it stays that way! They are about two years apart in age.
  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 8589
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4786
  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 8589
  • Post edited by oneluckymug at 2014-03-28 13:35:34
  • Post edited by shibamistress at 2014-03-28 13:46:59
  • Post edited by oneluckymug at 2014-03-28 13:58:37
  • Post edited by oneluckymug at 2014-03-28 14:52:19
  • @oneluckymug - I'm a bit curious. Do you have links to the breeders of crossbreeds whom you think are breeding responsibly?

    There's an extensive klee klai discussion floating around here somewhere about whether or not what they were doing was responsible breeding.
  • Post edited by shibamistress at 2014-03-28 15:22:59
  • what is wrong with the klee kai? it is a 40 year old breed according to wikipedia. Doesn't that make it past the stage of "cool and new"?

  • Post edited by oneluckymug at 2014-03-28 17:17:25
  • Kit_Keet_Kit_Keet_
    Posts: 206
    @oneluckymug - I guess my point was that I don't expect one of my dogs to be any more (or less) healthy than the other in the long-term based purely on the fact that one is purebred and the other is mixed. I understand that my mix breed is not the same as the goldendoodle as we know absolutely nothing about her genetic history. In fact, I couldn't even really tell you what breeds she could be beyond saying that she clearly has some terrier in her (likely either Irish or Airedale; Irish is more likely as she's not really in the right size range for an Airedale).

    I wasn't necessarily using my two dogs as a distinct comparison for the argument as much as I was supplying a personal anecdote for why it can be somewhat silly to assume that a dog will be healthier simply because it is mixed. I get your point about breeding two compatible breeds in an attempt to alleviate a health issue, and obviously that is what has occurred in numerous purebreds in order to better the breed. That being said, that is clearly not what is happening with the goldendoodle, and telling people that they are going to get a happy, healthy, smart, and hypoallergenic dog simply because it is a mix of a golden and a poodle isn't being totally truthful with the prospective puppy parents.

    I don't know, I guess my overall thought on it is that yes, responsible breeding with mixed breeds may produce "healthier" dogs, but then again, so would responsible breeding with two dogs of the same breed.
  • NASANASA
    Posts: 189
  • NASANASA
    Posts: 189
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3664
    Post edited by Calia at 2014-03-29 11:23:28
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4786
  • Post edited by violet_in_seville at 2014-03-30 01:34:32
  • NASANASA
    Posts: 189
    Sorry guys, I'm checking out of this one ... I think my post is being interpreted incorrectly. Unfortunately , I'm not big on arguing electronically because too much is lost in translation. Also too much to type and I'm on my phone. Sorry ladies you win this one :) lol

  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4786
  • knnwangknnwang
    Posts: 645
    Has anyone meet a goldendoodle? What are they like. Pics?
  • Post edited by oneluckymug at 2014-03-29 22:44:13
  • Post edited by shibamistress at 2014-03-29 23:01:54
  • Post edited by oneluckymug at 2014-03-29 23:43:13
  • Kit_Keet_Kit_Keet_
    Posts: 206
    @oneluckymug, while I get your point about breeding dogs just for the sake of showing and not using them for their original purpose, I think that requiring that only dogs who are used for their original purpose be allowed to show is a dangerous idea lol! As an example, I will cite one of my favorite breeds, which is, as far as I am aware, not used at all for its original purpose anymore.

    The Irish Wolfhound was originally bred to hunt wolves; not just track them, hunt them. They grabbed a wolf by the neck and shook until the wolf died, there was no waiting until the hunter showed up to finish the job! They were so effective at their job, that wolves are (or were. I'm not sure about the current status) extinct in Ireland. The breed is no longer used to hunt wolves, and to say that they should have to be before being allowed to show would be to the detriment of a gorgeous breed (and the wolves!)

    Anyway, I know that was not your main point at all! I think the larger contribution to shelter dogs is, as others have pointed out, backyard breeders, and inadvertently bred litters as a result of the dog owner's failure to spay/neuter his/her pet. My sister refuses to neuter her male dog and it drives me insane (he's the result of an accidental breeding, which in and of itself should be enough to convince her). She has the ridiculous idea that neutering is "cutting off his man-hood." Ummmmmmm, seriously!?!?! It's that line of thinking, the economic excuses, and pure laziness that contribute to the high population of pets in shelters, in my opinion anyway, in far greater numbers than the dogs purchased from responsible breeders offset dogs that could be rescued from shelters.

    Again, I am fairly neutral on this point as I have one mixed (granted not designer) dog and one purebred - both of which I love equally!!
    Post edited by Kit_Keet_ at 2014-03-30 00:19:21
  • NASANASA
    Posts: 189
    DITTO: However, I still am not comfortable with breeding just for show dogs or just to make a better breed. I think any life should have a higher purpose than just being born to show off having good genes, and then have more offspring to show how good their genes are.

    @oneluckymug , but don't forget that for "Good breeders" winning shows means they can charge more for their "champion" bloodline . LOL SMH
  • Kobe1468Kobe1468
    Posts: 1590
  • euphaireeuphaire
    Posts: 347
    Post edited by euphaire at 2014-03-30 00:52:58
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3664
  • Kobe1468Kobe1468
    Posts: 1590
  • @euphaire - unfortunately, all of us can find breeders who don't say, run health tests, who charge just as much as the prices you quoted, or more for purebred or cross bred dogs. Many of them are in fact listed on the spot the puppy mill thread.

    I think that @NASA probably has points they want to make that certainly have weight and validity, but their sketch of what the forum defines as a "good breeder" is a a straw man and detracts from their overall point.

    For better or worse, price has little to no correspondence with what I or others have defined as responsible breeding (even taking into consideration the arguments about function).

    With that, I'm going to go fix my truly egregious typos in my previous post.

    @oneluckymug - we do actually have threads that discuss the role of overpopulation, and the different types of breeding. Probably better to continue the discussion there. I'll try to bump them if I can find them this coming week.

    Also, if you are interested in seriously talking about function, breeding, cross breeding, and issues of genetic diversity and overpopulation, you may want to check the nihon ken forum. The discussion there tends to be more in depth and nuanced. However, I would suggest that if you want to debate it there, that you come prepared to cite references and sources. It improves the quality of discussion. Quite frankly I think we have gone way off topic here and the rhetoric has been quite sloppy in this thread. For those who want to discuss it seriously, I would suggest making the argument in a more appropriate thread and actually using citations.
  • RikkaRikka
    Posts: 1501
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4786
    Post edited by lindsayt at 2014-03-30 11:35:54
  • Kira_KiraKira_Kira
    Posts: 2482
  • NASANASA
    Posts: 189
    @lindsayt - where did I post that dogs should be used for their original intent ? Even the paragraph of mine you quoted had no relation to your rant. If you read up a little more I think that argument should be directed elsewhere.... So once again I'm going to leave this one alone.

    -----------------
    Anyway, I just agreed with oneluckymug and made a joke. You guys need to stop thinking what someone says holds true for all breeders. The joke I made as someone else has also pointed out is VERY true for some breeders, NOT ALL. Come on guys, I know you all are waaay smarter than that to think I'm applying what I'm saying to 100% of breeders out there. So if you know breeders who are ethical, great! So do I. But if you know what I'm saying is true of SOME, then guess what sit back and chill because I'm not just making it up- and as the dedicated shiba enthusiast you guys seem to be. I expect you guys to have encountered what I said above. If not, then why chime in with only limited knowledge. This forum is for people with different types of knowledge to share their exp. My exp is exactly what I have said above.



    if you want pm me and I'll personally direct you to a few as I think it is against rules to mention breeders specifically.
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4786
    Post edited by lindsayt at 2014-03-30 12:58:36

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