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Multiple Dog Household - Handling play, training, and bonding?
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    I am not sure using the search function I came across answers to my question, so I am sorry if this was discussed in another thread ...

    Now that I am a two dog household, one 13.5 month old Shiba and one 3.5 month old mix that appears to have possibly Shiba in him, I am wondering if there are limits on how much play and type of play I should be allowing.

    What I mean is, these two dogs definitely display the Shiba mouthiness play style, so that means they spend a lot, I mean a lot, of time mouth wrestling with some breaks to instead play tug with toys. Also during play I have noticed new humping behaviors that Bear has never displayed before at dog parks. I always make sure the play does not escalate and it really never does, both dogs initiate at times the play and go back in for more.

    I often will get in the middle of the play to reinforce that I can step in and they shouldn't mouth me, so far this has been very successful in them allowing me in the middle of their mouth wrestling and not adding my body into the game. I also make sure during tug games all three of us are playing by getting them to sit and wait for me to throw the toy for them to chase and tug until they come back. Yes, I plan to shape it to where they eventually bring the toy right back to me, but hey we are only 1.5 weeks into this so I want to be sure play and bonding are occurring too.

    I am just wondering if I allow too much mouth wrestling and I don't redirect them when they decide to jump on the others back (like humping) am I setting myself and them up for future problems (ie at dog parks with other dogs)?

    For those in multiple dog households, do you limit Shiba type play? If so what games other than mouth wrestling and toy tugging do your dogs engage in? I just want to be sure I am allowing them the opportunity to play/bond but also that I am not setting myself up for unforseen issues.

    Thanks for any advice on multiple dog household play.

    [edited to change category & title]
    Post edited by sunyata at 2013-02-11 14:42:34
  • kumaDUDEkumaDUDE
    Posts: 1259
    The dogs will let each other know when they are biting too hard...
    Also the humping can be stopped by you.
    Kuma actually learned bite inhibition by playing with@zandrame 's kouda. Kuma now plays with my parents dog, even though my parents dog hates other dogs, he accepted Kuma and they wrestle. Beck is 10-12yr rescue and Kuma is 11mo old.
    Post edited by kumaDUDE at 2013-02-06 10:58:15
  • ZeusZeus
    Posts: 24
    I am having the same problem with my Shiba and Pug ... My Shiba is only 17 weeks and my pug is an old lady at 9 yrs ... I have just learned so far that my pug can only take so much and I jump in and redirect my Shibas attention to playing with me instead.. Not sure if I'm doing the right thing also? I know I'm not much help but I look forward to seeing what others may think!
  • I'll be interested to see if anyone else has advice on this topic as well since we will be bringing in a new puppy in a few weeks. I've been worried about how they should play together, how much they should play together, and when/how I should intervene on their play time. I imagine that they figure most of it out on their own but I worry that Roo may overwhelm a very young puppy as she's still full of puppy energy herself at 9 months old.
  • @redcattoo - this sounds very appropriate to me. Keep in mind that your shiba probably won't slip into that play style with other dogs if you keep him well socialized. How is he at reading other dog's signals currently?

    @bikingleia - Are you signed up for puppy kindergarten? Did you do it with Roo? In a good class the trainer will show the participants how to read a situation (when a dog is getting uncomfortable, irritated etc.) and when a dog is ignoring the other dog's signals. They'll also point out when you should intervene. This happens during the free play for puppies in the class. This will be more helpful than us advising you since you can watch it directly rather than hear a description.
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4785
    Periodically interupting play and breaking up rough housing is a good habit to get into. That way your dogs will have had lots of practice being called away and that can help diffuse any tensions or potential hurt feelings from one getting too rough. If it makes you uncomfortable, it's ok to stop it.

    It's good for them to play, but giving each his own play time with you and a time out from the other is good, too.
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
  • amtiamti
    Posts: 1066
    I also have two dogs, Kaji is 7 months, Taisho is 2 1/2 years old. I have had Taisho for a month now, so he is still new so I may not have experienced everything you have.

    When the dogs play, they play hard and run like crazy. There is growling, barking, soft biting and lots of jumping. I caution them when I think they are getting too rowdy by either saying, "Hey!" or call them and the play time ceases temporarily. I watch them run around the yard chasing each other in record speed and it is quite entertaining. As long as they look like they are playing, I don't intervene while they are outdoors. There is an occasional yelp, but that is telling the other dog that their bite was a little too hard, so I think those yelps are good things as long as they are not frequent. They do seem to know when one or the other has had enough and that water drinking time is not a place for play. They do not play as wild indoors as they do when they are outdoors. Luckily, there has been very little or no humping. Taisho is intact while Kaji is neutered, so I keep an eye on them when they play to keep any sort of hump like activity to a minimum.

    Kaji plays with everything and anything you throw. He will bring it back, play keep away (which I don't chase him but will run and he'll chase me), chew on it, or play tug of war. I also have him play thinking games (I twirl a toy above his head and he has to figure out how he is going to get it- does this by jumping on a chair and grabbing the twirling toy) or I get a toy on a rope and sit on the floor and slide the toy around my legs while Kaji tries to grab it. He'll have to crawl under my knees and/or jump over them while going around my body without stepping on me to get the toy.

    Taisho, being a rescue, didn't know how to play with toys. His previous activities were running away from bigger dogs that were picking on him, so playing with another dog his size and one that was playing for fun, was more or less something new. He brought me back a throw toy for the first time yesterday (yay!) and beat Kaji to the toy each and every time. He's also started playing keep away with Kaji but doesn't last that long. I do think Kaji is a little scared to take anything away from Taisho so we have had very few, if any, resource guarding problems. Taisho doesn't play tug of war ... yet. I also play with the dogs and put myself in the middle of their play. They seem to really like it too. Other than that, there is the usual, "Let me pull out all the stuffing from this toy and leave it all over the house" tactic by Kaji.
  • Zeus said:

    I am having the same problem with my Shiba and Pug ... My Shiba is only 17 weeks and my pug is an old lady at 9 yrs ... I have just learned so far that my pug can only take so much and I jump in and redirect my Shibas attention to playing with me instead.. Not sure if I'm doing the right thing also? I know I'm not much help but I look forward to seeing what others may think!



    I would intervene in your case, at least occasionally, as you have a young dog and an elder, and the elder is smaller/more fragile. Your puppy could really hurt your pug without even intending to, so I think your idea of redirecting the Shiba to play with you is a good idea. Also, VinS idea of going to a puppy socialization class is really good, because if they allow freeplay (as they should), they will help you identify canine body language to see when a dog is getting stressed, etc.

    I also think Lindsay's point about just interupting periodically so they get used to it is good.

    I have three dogs that run together (and one that doesn't). I have to intervene on play fairly often, because the Akita is so much bigger than the other two (Shiba and Kai), and because the female Shiba is nuts and gets overaroused and will switch from play to fight. Plenty of mouthing is ok, and I let them do that and wrestle. But some things I don't like (even if the other dogs don't seem that bothered by it). the akita has started grabbing the Kai by the ruff and dragging him around, and even though Leo goes right back for more if I separate them, I don't think that is appropriate play, so I stop it. If the two gang up on him, I stop it. Even though he acts like it is ok-he rushes back for more--I think that it is too rough, and if I see him hiding from them, I intervene too, even though almost every time he runs back into the fray afterwards.

    Its up to you to decide what you think is acceptable or not. A lot of noise and mouthing I'm ok with as long as no one looks stressed, but if it looks iffy, I stop it.
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    Thanks everyone for your insights and feedback. It helps me feel comfortable on allowing the mouthy tug running type play, but also on stepping in if it is play I disagree with what they are doing even if neither dog appears to be bothered.

    So far since the early management issues with feeding and treats things have gone well. All meals are currently fed in crate with doors closed and with a 5-15 minute rest after they finish (usually because we are still eating). Treats haven't been an issue recently and toys to date have never seemed to be an issue.
  • I did take Roo to puppy classes where they had free play but she never had any issues with the other puppies there and they never discussed what you should watch for.
  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 3494
    With time and experience...especially in a multidog household...you will learn their verbal or physical cues showing they've had enough. :) Just make sure to pay attention!

    Bootz is a really good olders sister that allows Jackie to get away with a lot of things. But there are times where Jackie lets out certain sounds that let me know I need to distract the two before she snaps lol. (Jackie is a sore loser xP)
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    @Bootz I just worry that I am not yet in tune with multiple dog verbal/physical cues and I don't want, in my newbie learning state, to create issues I didn't forsee or find myself in a serious management failure situation by not understanding the cue I saw.

    And maybe a little jealousy that Bear still finds something else other than me more interesting (Tanjiro), but at least Tanjiro finds me more interesting and that means Bear gets pulled in too when Tanjiro comes to me LOL
  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 3494
    Tanjiro is still new....but i'm pretty sure you will learn their cues.
    Just try not to overthink it! Usually if your instincts tell you "maybe I should stop them..." you can quickly call their names to get their attention. Its a good way to practice recall...since it encourages them to stop what they're doing and look/come your way.
  • I did take Roo to puppy classes where they had free play but she never had any issues with the other puppies there and they never discussed what you should watch for.



    A good class will--though I've only been in one that did. We had a fair amount of time outs in our puppy class for rowdy dogs. the assistant would pick up the offending puppy and hold it, which also go the pup used to a stranger holding it, and used to calming down when the pup was too excited. The trainer would keep going with class, but she would also offer some commentary on why the assistant intervened.

    My naughty Kai Ken boy had to have time outs a couple of times for overly rough play of the kind that all NK people are used to, but was too much for some of the other puppies in the class. The trainer said it was typical of the Japanese breed play style (she had Akitas) but that we were intervening simply because it was too much for the other puppy.
    Post edited by shibamistress at 2013-02-07 22:24:47
  • Tre26Tre26
    Posts: 96
    Thanks for starting this thread. It is a very interesting one. We are enjoying our one Shiba but I sometimes think it would be nice to have two dogs. Mazda has lots of energy and sometimes I think it would be nice for her one day to have another dog around. I have never had more than one at a time.My daughter may get a Golden Retriever within a year or two and since she lives close by some of this information may come in handy.
    Tre26
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    So we had a puppy class this weekend, the first time I have been in a class where they allowed puppy socialization because Bear was already over 5 months when we got him.

    One piece of advice the trainer gave us is that if they dogs appear to be playing too rough, take the dog on top off, if the dog on bottom leaves the area (ie to go hide) then the dog on top was bullying, if the dog on bottom comes back for more then they were just playing and all is fine.
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    *edited - thanks mods for changing title and classification for the thread as it expands beyond playing :) *

    Okay, it has been two weeks since adding a new pup into our home. Our focus has been on settling into the change this adds and just letting the dogs kind of be dogs.

    During this period we did continue to go to Bear's regular Monday night agility class and we took Tanjiro to a fun obedience/agility class and to his first puppy class. So for structured classes we are going to try to maintain a class a week for each dog. My question lies beyond the structured class time with trainers ...

    For those in multiple dog households that really focus on training beyond the basic training normal pet owners strive for (ie for conformation, agility, rally, obedience, other dog sports, ect ...), I am hoping you can give me insights into how you balance time by answering a few questions:

    1) Do you work full time away from home?
    2) Do you have a secure area you can train off leash outside at your house?
    3) If no to #2, do you have a area you can train off leash outside of structured classes and if so how far from you and what type of setting?
    4) How often per week and how long each session do you train the dogs to do things together (ie sit, down, come/here)?
    5) How often per week and how long each session do you train each dog sperately?
    6) When training only one dog at home what do you do with your other dog(s)?

    I know everyone's situation is different and the pull on our lives different, I am just trying to map out in my brain how to best handle moving beyond the settling in stage to handle training at home now that I have two dogs to balance and enjoy pushing our bond to another level for sports and activities.

    Thanks.
    Post edited by redcattoo at 2013-02-11 14:44:12
  • XabiXabi
    Posts: 432
    Patricia McConnell's "For the Love of a Dog" has quite a few sections on reading dog body language, so it may be worth picking that up at your library (if available). After reading that, I feel I was more able to pick up on the subtle cues with regards to levels of comfort and body tension that my shibas exhibit. There's nothing that can replace exposure and activity with your dog though. As with most things there are shades of grey and nuance for each animal but knowing to identify some things like 'play bows' and noting the difference between a relaxed mouth and a tense one has been helpful for me and my shibas when I've needed to diffuse situations from escalating.
    X & I signature smaller
    Post edited by Xabi at 2013-02-11 16:10:13
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    @Xabi thanks for the book recommendation, that sounds like something that would be helpful for me. I do know some will come through experience, but I could use the basics to create a foundation to work from as I grow with my dogs and teach my husband to grow with them :)

    Actually it isn't too expensive on Amazon so I ordered it since I have prime shipping.
    Post edited by redcattoo at 2013-02-11 16:30:45
  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 3494
    I don't do those extra activities but here are my answers to your questions.

    I work full time away from home but I occasionally bring my dogs to work. Most of my offleash training was done at home and at the dog park. When I first got Bootz and Jackie, I did training every single day. I would have to say I kind of still do it now. 3 story house = lots of time where dogs are on a different floor and I would have treats on all the levels so that when I call their name I have something to reward them with.

    I did BOTH individual training (my bf takes one dog I take another) and also training together. (Make one stay while commanding the other to do tricks). I never reward the one that is told to "stay" if she's doing commands i'm giving to the other dog. I focus more time on the dog that is having more trouble with whatever i'm trying to teach. But I do reinforcement training with the one that already has it down.

    Now that they're both about 1 year and 9 months. We don't do individual training anymore. I train them together but they are use to it. One will stay and wait while I work on the second one, and vise versa.

    Just make sure that you and your husband are using the same training commands.. Physical and verbal cues...and switching between Tanjiro and Bear.
  • tatonkatatonka
    Posts: 1210
    This thread is good data for potential 2 dog owners (not me of course ;) ).. thanks for getting this going @redcattoo
    Monkey!
  • amtiamti
    Posts: 1066
    I deleted my post bc I don't train outside of the ordinary commands. Sorry, I don't know how to delete the entire post.
    Post edited by amti at 2013-02-11 22:49:39
  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 3494
    @Tatonka, you can get a second one! And once you can't handle it, I'll take Tatonka lol.
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    @tatonka, glad some members feel this thread will provide good information. I was so worried how I would add a 2nd dog to our family, so I was glad to have input from members who did have second dogs once I started this thread. Actually, for Bear, adding the 2nd dog I think really ended up being the best decision, I can not believe the change in him during training opportunities.

    @amti, don't be afraid to add your thoughts just on ordinary training as I am sure other members will find your insights now and in the future valuable on it. I only directed it out to those who I know do sport activities with multiple dogs as I am seeking thoughts on how to handle the specialty issues of multiple activities and training with two dogs at different stages. At some point in the future I know they will both be more at a maintenance stage (ie for Rally, agility, nosework, ect) but right now I am not sure how to divide my time, especially since I really have no outdoor area to work with we only have inside the house if we want to do off leash training (ie for agility).

  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    Okay, so here is the next thing I just discovered about having two dogs, one being a puppy ...

    We had been gone all day and when we got home the boys began playing in their usual manner. My husband freaks out from the couch and tells me that Bear's leg is all bloody. I see the blood he is talking about and worry since they do play mouthy and chicken leg each other a lot.

    I quickly get Bear isolated in the back room to look at his leg and notice blood on his shoulder area too. I begin cleaning him up, he is showing no sign of distress, but I am seeing no signs at all of any injury anywhere on him. Feeling relieved other than now I begin to wonder between my 3 cats and Tanjiro where that blood came from.

    Finally, I have figured out it is from Tanjiro, but not any injury it was because Tanjiro is getting his adult teeth in and his gums were probably bloody while mouth wrestling.

    Whew, glad no one had been injured, but my heart stopped for a moment seeing Bear's leg all bloody.
  • tatonkatatonka
    Posts: 1210
    Whoa :P
    Monkey!
  • bikingleiabikingleia
    Posts: 212
    That's a good heads up, I'm sure we'll run into that as well!
  • RikkaRikka
    Posts: 1501
    Haha, that happened with a friend of ours puppy and Sagan. They were wrestling pretty rough for a bit, then all of a sudden, the other puppy's chest was beginning to turn red, along with his cheeks and legs. The friend immediately stops the play, picks him up, and tries to find out what's wrong. Sagan, on the other hand, has a sheepish grin and his tail is wagging, wanting to play more, but he was actually the one bleeding! His mouth was filled with blood because they mouth-wrestled too hard and he lost a couple of teeth. The friend's puppy was absolutely fine.

    Needless to say, our friend called off the play date and Sagan was sad. :P
    image
    Lauren, living with a 4 y/o Shiba named after a scientist. ☆
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    Hello, I came across this older AKC article posted on FB: http://clubs.akc.org/aba/bully/multiple.htm

    Of course there is a debate over how out dated it is going on that FB link. I am not posting this link to create that debate in this thread, I am posting it because I believe there is a good underlying message to those of us in multiple dog households.

    Some of the points like 1-4, 10 and 11 I think are very good advice. Now points 5-6 I don't take anything from and 7-8 (no idea what happened to 9) I only partially get any underlying message from.

    Anyways take it for what it is worth in this chain about multiple dog households.


  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4785
    1) Do you work full time away from home?

    Yes! I have a paying job but am lucky to have generous leave and shifts that allow me to be home during the day when I need to be.

    2) Do you have a secure area you can train off leash outside at your house?

    Yes, I have an acre, and soon it will be completely cleared and fenced with an exercise track and road going around the entire perimeter. I have plans to convert the shop into a (smaller) training facility, about 40 x 60 feet, enough to do some indoor training once the remodel on it is completed.

    3) If no to #2, do you have a area you can train off leash outside of structured classes and if so how far from you and what type of setting?

    I still go to outside properties for training, but my focus has shifted away from that recently.

    4) How often per week and how long each session do you train the dogs to do things together (ie sit, down, come/here)?

    Others train more in the home than I do and have very strict behavior criteria for their pets, which is fine, but my focus is on enjoying my pets as pets right now with occasional trials in Agility and Flyball and some nursing home therapy visits, now that they have all given me so many years of service and have retired from showing.

    My job is streasful and time consuming, so when I come home, I want to have fun with my pets and do normal things like take them on walks and play in the yard. I really appreciate those "normal" things now :) But, I will get bored at some point and have been wanting to put Beebe or Ike into some Agility or Obedience classes again as it is their turn for fun classes now :)

    Most of their skills training happens at meals, and when I have daycare or boarding dogs, I like to do some harder group exercises (sits, downs, stays, recalls, eating all together with no barriers, etc). I do take dogs individually for specific training sessions and seperate the rest when I have trials or shows coming up. I don't spend more than 10-15 minutes per dog per session training a certain set of skills.

    I try to rotate them all in specific classes so they each get a turn to work one on one with me in their own class away from home. I have taken a break from all classes due to breeding/puppies, but will resume once that is finished. It's been really nice to take a long break and not rush back and forth to classes, and that is giving me some free time and extra $ to go to some really fun seminars on dogs, and travel with friends, go to trials out of the country with my Flyball team, that I am really looking forward to. I used to do up to 3-4 classes a week AND private lessons AND trials on weekends, and it was too much with a full time job and more than 1 or 2 dogs.

    5) How often per week and how long each session do you train each dog sperately?

    Maybe just a few times a week now for not longer than 10-15 minutes per dog. Maybe.

    6) When training only one dog at home what do you do with your other dog(s)?

    They wait for their turn in a smaller holding area or inside. Watching the other dog get to do fun stuff helps get them excited for their turn :)
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    @lindsayt, thanks for sharing your responses to my questions. Sounds like you have developed a great balance.

    I am still working on balancing the pure enjoyment of my dogs with training needs. With Tanjiro still young I know I really need to put in time now to set his foundations. With Bear I need to work on focus and recall along with trying to keep any resource issues minimal (I think he is getting better due to my management not setting up situations for failure).

    I do wish I had an outdoor secure area at home. Working on off leash obedience is hard to constantly do in the house and doesn't help generalize it, yet my access to secure areas are typically dog parks which the distractions are too high. I also would love to be able to more easily have fun training agility just out my back door.

    It helps me though to have insights into how everyone else balances their pure enjoyment, obedience training, and other fun activity training needs. So thanks again for sharing @lindsayt!
  • GrayJJGrayJJ
    Posts: 67
    This has been a helpful thread, I am considering adding a puppy one day (not immediately), I'm trying to wrap my head around all these issues first.

    Has anyone experienced any jealousy between the dogs? Everyone on the same potty schedule?
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    Yes, the jealousy I think worked to my favor. My older boy who was an only child has become more focused when he and I have one on one time. I think sharing my time and attention makes him value it more than when he was a spoiled only child.

    At my house they have access to a small outdoor area for pottying, but we still do 2-3 walks a day also where typically both will pee/poo because they eat on the same schedule.
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    I just wanted to update this thread on multiple dogs as a reminder and warning to all of us that we really have to watch and manage our dogs living together and understand their personalities for management.

    Today I saw a FB post from someone I know through agility connections. I only know this person through others, not by a personal friendship at this time, but the story I saw made me very sad for her family.

    A dog who just earned her Bronze ADCH and should have been competing at Regionals this past weekend, gave up her fight to live and passed over the rainbow bridge. She would have just been 6 yrs old next month.

    Why do I share this in this thread, it was due to a fight with the other household dog who was about 8 yrs old. These two dogs lived together for the entire life of the dog who passed on (so just under 6 years). From what I can tell she was working with the malinois, usually when she does she puts the dogs in separate bedrooms. Apparently, both dogs are so jealous of time with her that neither backs down. So it is my impression she was working with one and a fight broke out that lead to injuries ending in death.

    The initial injuries were not life threatening, but the dog who ended up dying went into shock (like what can happen to sheep and goats that can't cope with that much stress) and ended up going into DIC (death is coming) status. Sounds like the dog and them fought hard for several days, even doing blood transfusion since her blood counts were off the charts, but that at the end of the day it was not enough.

    So, I just thought I would post the basics of the post from FB of this story as a reminder to us all that even if our dogs have lived together for years, we always have to be vigilante and aware of what can set them off. In this case, while the attack itself didn't create physical life threatening injuries, it sounds like the emotional stress the dog underwent from the situation lead to a downward spiral that ended in giving up on the dogs part to fight for life. All this could have been avoided by management as had always been used in the past, but in this one occasion was forgotten about.

    :(

    [mod edit: restored post to original content, edited post caused confusion]
    Post edited by sunyata at 2013-06-11 09:14:42
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4785
    This is really sad. One of those instances where management had failed enough that prompt rehoming sounded like the safest option at that point.
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    Yeah I don't know her personally so can't judge the decision, but I usually give some benefit of knowledge to people who actively have titled dogs. I guess I give that benefit of knowledge as it does take some more training usually to train for dog sports than just a pet level obedience takes. After 6 yrs together in the same household I would presume there had been management of some sort and this was a moment of laxness which can happen as our guards may be let down.

    I am presuming things though based only on what I know through my impression of the post. I could be wrong and they really didn't know and understand dogs as well as they needed to or there had been several other management failures along the 6 yrs the dogs were in the same house.

    I am reading through my own experience though. I have to be careful of Bears jealousy when I work with Tanjiro. It doesn't happen with hubby, only me. It is something I am always aware of and trying to work on or at least manage to assure conflict doesn't start when I am training Tanjiro at home.
  • okironokiron
    Posts: 735
    Hmm that's not the story I heard. I wonder which one is true.
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    @okiron, I could be completely mis-understanding the post I saw. Here is a copy of the post I read, since I probably did a disservice trying to summarize it ....

    Shortly before midnight, Saturday, our amazing and gifted speckled Girly gave up her fight to live. She had been improving and we thought she turned the corner. It had been 4 hard days and I was at her side most of that time. I was with her tonight as she gave up her hard-felt fight.... I pleaded with her not to give up....
    Thriller was a blessing, a joy and Bill's bestest friend. She was my amazing partner in agility, best friend, loyal and gave me the confidence I lacked while teaching me so very much.
    She just earned her Bronze ADCH and should've been competing this weekend at the Regionals in Perry. Darcy and Thriller could've kicked some serious butt as a performance team at 16". She accomplished more than I can write about in this e-mail. I'll do that at some point but for now, I can't focus, can hardly breathe...
    For those that need answers, she got into a fight with my GSD Cadie (who is not crazy, does not have "rage" etc...). I was working the malinois for the first time in a long time and I always put them in separate bedrooms..... For whatever reason I forgot.... perhaps because they have lived together for Thriller's entire life. Cadie is 8, Thriller would be 6 next month. They are both so jealous of time with me neither backs down. Yes, it is my fault she is no longer hear.... an accident but still, my fault.
    Her injuries were NOT LIFE THREATENING.... She went into shock (the emergency clinic, Tampa Bay Veterinary Hospital) and they told me it was probably something like what happens to the sheep and goats that cannot cope with that much stress.... she went into DIC....(look it up.... the initials in med school were said to stand for "death is coming"). I KNEW that would be an almost insurmountable obstacle but I had faith and gave her every chance, leaving her side only 2 times to come home since Wednesday and then only to turn around and go right back after taking care of stuff here as quickly as possible. Yesterday morning when Bill visited she sat up and wagged her tail...... we thought she had turned the corner but her blood counts were off the charts.... transfusions (she'd had 4) would've helped but dog blood typing is not like human blood typing and they have many "varieties" they cannot type for.... in addition, it's harder to transfuse purebreds... They were not set up to do direct and even had they been (from her daughters) there still could've been a reaction.
    I learned that after 24 hrs the likelihood of a reaction is astronautically higher. Two more attempts failed and her temp went up and the transfusion had to be stopped. Dog medicine is so far behind our ICUs it's staggering. This was a hard reality check for somebody that spent a career in Emergency & critical care Nursing.... they don't have the same equipment, products or since of urgency. I was there almost 24/7 to be her advocate (and this was a top place full of highly trained and caring professionals). I held her in my arms as she gave up.... I will never be the same again. Either will Bill....
    Post edited by redcattoo at 2013-06-11 07:04:43
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4785
    Two things (just thoughts on what this lady wrote):

    It's not harder to transfuse purebreds. Cats may be another story...My dog is a blood donor (purebred, universal donor) and I've not heard that once about dogs, but I will ask next donation. Like with humans, some canine blood types can only receive blood from the same type and the universal donor, so being a rarer blood type may make finding blood of that same type difficult, but that's why universal donors are often used in canine blood banking.

    DIC stands for disseminated intravascular coagulopathy, which is life threatening and makes sense as she speaks about blood transfusions. That is something that happens in shock cases and causes multiple organ failure, so that makes sense.
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    @lindsayt, thanks for the proper insight into what DIC stands for. I do wonder what details are missing, it still scares and surprises me that something caused the dog to go into DIC and seems associated to a fight started by jealousy over training time, so happening when humans were present. It will keep me on my toes as I know I have seen glimpses of that jealousy tendency with Bear when I work with Tanjiro and I just would hate for it to ever escalate to where Tanjiro experiences that level of stress to create a life threatening situation.
  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 3494
    Thats a sad story :( 6 years together and then that happens? Jealousy is definitely something you have to work on...My parents got Jackie first then husband added Bootz to the family. Jackie is very possesive but it escalates to a point where blood is shed - think due to how laid back and easy going Bootz is.

    But even so, Jackie is 10 lbs vs Bootz is 30 lbs. I leave them free roam and am confident since if anything ever happens, Jackie has spots to hide where Bootz cannot reach. Even then, those two just sleep when i'm at work.
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    Yeah, @Bootz, I don't worry about leaving Bear and Tanjiro free roam when we leave as long as we know all very high value food and chewies (pig ears, beef tracheas, ect) are put away. They play very well together and often rest when we aren't around.

    There are a few triggers we have discovered that can create situations I don't like with Bear being a little too dominating with Tanjiro causing Tanjiro to run and hid under the dining room table with a worried look on his face. Mainly food, pig ears, beef trachea, and training/reward moments with me (not my hubby though).

    While not funny, it is oddly funny, when Tanjiro goes to hide under the dining room table as he is so much bigger than Bear. So far, the few times it has happened, Bear doesn't follow him once he goes under it. Tanjiro is upto 48 lbs vs Bear's 32 lbs and 2-4 inches taller now which is why it is oddly funny that Tanjiro gets away from Bear by going under something.

    I do my best to never allow situations that put him into that position of having to worry about hiding from Bear, but I think that is why the story hits home with me as I have had brief glimpses of potential issues and don't want to take for granted what could happen if I drop my guard down.
  • shibamistressshibamistress
    Posts: 5171
    I don't know this person, so I don't want to second guess, but it does seem like a very sad example of management failure, and also....well, there are always signs, and when those signs manifest in a serious manner (not a little jealousy or a little scuffle--it's pretty easy to tell the difference), then it is important to really keep those dogs separate. Still kind of seems like something is missing from this story....

    The lesson is to be careful with multiple dogs, obviously.

    The link from the AKC was not terribly useful, since it shows an misunderstanding of canine behavior and depends on outdated ideas (pack order, etc). I actually think it's pretty dangerous for someone to still be spouting that kind of stuff, esp. about the not supporting the "beta" dog (#5) Uh, no. Never let another dog bully another one. Letting dogs have their supposed "pack order" is how dogs get really hurt. And not protecting a dog who is being bullied simply means one dog will end up dead or seriously injured. I don't even understand how people can still be saying this kind of stuff! And the scent stuff was just bizarre too.

    But there is a difference between mild jealousy/competitiveness and true aggression. I see my Akita getting pushy when we are training with the other dogs. He does it by sitting his big body down in front of the other dogs, or sometimes trying to intimidate the others with a stare. That's nothing serious, and when he does it, I just separate them for training. True aggression is quite different.
  • okironokiron
    Posts: 735
    Ah, sounds closer to what I heard. Looks like the person who told me the story was a lot nicer of the owner, tis all. Same story, different wording.
  • amtiamti
    Posts: 1066
    How very sad... regardless of what happened, it just means we all need to always keep our eyes and ears tuned into our animals and always be prepared for the unknown. We think our dogs will act one way but we can never be 100% sure.
  • ShibaLoveShibaLove
    Posts: 554
    I worry about this too. My two get along probably as well as her dogs did but it can escalate so fast! The only thing we can do is try to be aware and responsible.
  • tatonkatatonka
    Posts: 1210
    Ok, after I read that story I've decided Tatonka and I are going to stay a one dog household.
    Monkey!
  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 3494
    @Tatonka, wait what? :( I thought you're going to be a two dog household in August? ;_; i promise Bootz will behave
  • tatonkatatonka
    Posts: 1210
    @Bootz, nah I don't mean Ms. B. I know she and Tatonka get along just fine. I just mean for myself getting another dog as a pet - not gonna happen.
    Monkey!
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    I thought I would add this article I came across today on FB to my thread on multiple dog households for anyone doing a search and going through the decision of adopting two puppies at the same time. I know even I hesitated to add in my second pup who I saw through a Shiba rescue organization and he was only 3.5 months old to my house which had a Shiba who was only about 13.5 months old at the time. There is some good points in the article to think about.

    http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/13_1/features/Problems-Adopting-Two-Puppies-At-Once_16190-1.html?s=FB082613

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