Ok...I'll play!! The one on the left looks a lot like Kobe did at four weeks and Kobe is sesame. The one on the right looks more like a red, but Kobe's brother had a very light head and turned out to be sesame as well. Wish you could see more of the lighter ones back, but I'll still go with red. If you really wanna know just ask the breeder, but yes this is more fun!! Either way don't think you can go wrong....cute youngsters!!

@Orangedoggie...what do you consider a "true" sesame?? Some have more of the dark guard hairs, some less. Are the ones with less not Sesame? What would you call them then? Not picking a fight, just interested in your opinion!!

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.shibas.org/images/sesjudge.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.shibas.org/newstand/judge.html&h=331&w=248&sz=100&tbnid=a7zudz8mWJLjfM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=67&zoom=1&usg=__zY5MD4xmdC3sraeHj1nWRAQGJ2Y=&docid=3KEPtCs5zYw0oM&sa=X&ei=ea8MUdfCI-vOyAG9l4DQAQ&ved=0CDMQ9QEwAA&dur=3208

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.shibas.org/images/redsesame.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.shibas.org/newstand/geninfo.html&h=312&w=315&sz=55&tbnid=AKdKxpdSZHa4RM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=91&zoom=1&usg=__KrNvzMmaB8EphWivCHEw9nWEE2U=&docid=Fi6bGj47mZ4rkM&sa=X&ei=ea8MUdfCI-vOyAG9l4DQAQ&ved=0CDkQ9QEwAg&dur=4539

Here's one I took picture myself.


There are different sesame colorings. Red sesame is more lighter and the harder to breed for sesame looks bit more different.

http://www.shibas.org/newstand/sesame.html

Not sure on how coloration will be pups change as they grow especially when they get their adult coats in.. Cute puppies either way.

It is usually hard to say for sure for sure how a puppy's coloring will turn out if they have that black around their nose and on their backs, because that could easily fade into a darker red color to produce a well-rounded red Shiba, and the nose could easily fade into a white color to blend with the chest. Or, haha, they could turn out to be a sesame!
I guess that's not really a good answer, but sometimes it really is hard to tell and futile to predict! :P (Also, when puppies lose their puppy fur, it could totally grow in a lighter/darker color to add to what was left, so they may seem sesame as pups, but then grow into reds!)

I think that Maggie looks very similar to the batch of pups you are considering! Her mom was a sesame and her dad was a beautiful, brilliant red. I am posting some pictures and descriptions of her color change over the past 10 months so you can kind of have a better idea at what exactly I mean by the color "fading."

Maggie (left) at about 5 weeks old
-black coloring around nose & ears, top of head


Maggie at 3.5 months
-black coloring at top of head & around nose, but ears have faded into red; nose is fading into white


Maggie at 8 months
-no black to be found except on the very edges of the bridge of her nose that fades into white


Maggie is now 10 months old and most of that fading in the previous picture is no longer there. There's a little hint of it, but it continues to fade, and I have honestly no doubt that once she's a little older, it won't be there at all.

I hope that helps!!

@ Sarah_Jay12 ... Thanks! The photos from puppy to 10 months is helpful. Amazing how much they change!!! Maggie is a great looking girl - love her expressive eyes! Was she the puppy on the right?

Kobe at around four weeks:
Kobe at eight weeks:
Kobe today...now seven and a half months:
Not as dark as the beautiful sesame @Saya posted but guess you would call him a "lighter" sesame. At one point we thought he would loose all his dark markings but they became very distinguished at around six months. His dad looks more like @Saya's post while his Mom is a darker red.

@orangedoggie...in your opinion what would you call my Kobe based on the photos I included in my previous post?
I did not see any mention of "dirty red" or even "red sesame" in the breed standard description.

Ok but if you read the breed standard description of a red it only allows for a very small area of black tips DOWN THE BACK. Kobe and many other "sesames"(?) have the black tips on the sides as well, most in distinct patterns. I was told by my breeder of thirty years that he is sesame...making me wonder if she's wrong!!

I think without the head and face markings, it's not a sesame, but I've been wrong before. :)
I swear in one of my magazines or a Japanese Shiba book it says that only 2% or so of Shibas are sesame - so really rare. I'll have to see if I can find it.
I once looked through a ton of pics from a Nippo show - like 600 Shibas - and saw one sesame.

@zandrame...not the best with technology, which one is slide 51??

Well this is all very disturbing!! According to the breed standard Kobe is not a red(too much black all over his body), nor is he a sesame(i guess)!! Would be interested to see what a breeder or show judge would say he is. Guess it really doesn't matter... I love my guy!!
I'm going to do some more research on this, very interesting!

@notoriousscrat....I would love to hear from a show judge to clarify this! I'm not stating that Kobe is a show worthy shiba, but I do have an issue with calling him a "dirty red". If you look at the breed standard for a red it states that a brilliant orange/Red is preferred all over the body but a SLIGHT black tipping on the back and tail is acceptable. It says nothing about black tipping on the sides, nor a large concentration of black tipping. I understand that Kobe may not be a prime example of a sesame but he and others like him fit more into the Sesame standard than the Red. I'm just wondering why this is such an issue..to deny a dog Sesame status!! I agree, maybe not a prime example of a sesame but more so than a red. I guess I need to stick to my breeder of over 30 years experience!

From the National Shiba Club of America on sesame:

Imagine a black-and-tan Shiba. Now, in your mind, replace the solid black areas with a black-tipped red coat. The only exception to this similarity in pattern is that the tipping on a sesame can sometimes end at the forehead in a widow's peak leaving the bridge of the muzzle red, where on a black and tan the bridge must always be black. Sesames can be quite dark, up to 50% black but should not be any darker than this. The tipping must be even throughout the sesame areas with no concentration of black anywhere. Sesame is the rarest of the three preferred colors in both Japan and the US. At the Nippo National I attended in 1991, out of 652 Shibas entered only 3 were sesame. Many US breeders and judges have never seen a sesame!

Many Shibas are sable rather than sesame. These dogs are red and have black-tipped hairs primarily on the back and tail only. These sable Shibas are called "red with black inserts" in Japan. Nippo has no separate color category for registering sables. They are registered as reds. While dogs that have the sesame pattern and have quite a heavy overlay (keeping in mind the 50% rule), sables must have a sparse overlay. The closer to pure red the better. Under no circumstances should the overlay on a sable be so dark as to form a solid black saddle as in the German Shepherd. Adult sesames and sables must never have a black mask.

The AKC Shiba Inu standard on red:

Sesame (black-tipped hairs on a rich red background) with urajiro. Tipping is light and even on the body and head with no concentration of black in any area. Sesame areas appear at least one-half red. Sesame may end in a widow's peak on the forehead, leaving the bridge and sides of the muzzle red. Eye spots and lower legs are also red.

If "dirty sesame" bothers you just refer to him as a red sesame. That is what he is, a little bit of both. Of course words like this never really bothered me...I have dirty blonde hair but that doesn't mean it is any worse than blonde, just different. I don't think it really matters, we aren't planning on showing our shibas anyways right?

Re the pups - red or red sesasame (some black guard hairs on the back - especially for the one on the left but can't tell for the one on the right). I don't think these guys will be true sesame.

Kobe is not a true sesame, as others have stated. Your breeder dun' goofed. ;)

I think all the pups in the 1st picture will end up Red. a lighter red for the one to the right.
a Sesame pup is usually darker.. almost black.

This has been so interesting to read! I thought any Shiba that had black in it was a sesame. Apparently I was very wrong. And my dog is a red sesame and not sesame. I refuse to call her a red because in my opinion, if there is any black at all, the dog should not be characterized as a red.

He isn't a correct sesame, and he isn't a clear red. He may be a genetic sesame if a parent was Black and Tan or a correct sesame, but I would take the mismark approach, and just describe him as a mismarked red dog.

The Eukanuba best of breed winner last year was a sesame.

Tatonka is definitely dirty











sesame that is ;)

@amti...thank you!! So nice to hear!! Your Shibas are also beautiful!!

Mino is a type of Shiba (a seperate breed, really), whereas pinto is a coat pattern. Pinto is a mismark. Some cream coats are mismarked red (dilute).

Minos are such a deep red. Has anyone had hands on one? I'm curious what color undercoat they have.

Thank you

Breeders don't really take the best pictures or color correct or anything. I'd suggest you don't get too hung up on color so early in your pup's life.

@Tre26... Nobody has said that non-conforming dogs are ugly or make bad pets. I'm assuming you are carrying over some frustration from the spot-the-puppy-mill threads, but that is not the focus of this one. Granted, haphazard breeding will lead to more unpredictable colors and markings, let alone health issues. But further discussion on that is better suited to those original threads.

Multiple people, including myself, have told you how to post pictures. Please check your intro thread. You cannot upload photos to the forum directly (only the profile picture). You must use an external host (like flickr or photobucket) and copy the links into your post.

But from your profile pic, it looks like Mazda is red.