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I need your opinion and help again
  • KimuraKimura
    Posts: 191
    Okay, awesome knowledgeable shiba people!!
    I now have two possible candidates to re-home Kimura and there are pros and cons to both and we're trying to decide which would be better for Kimura. Your opinions would be appreciated :D
    Both are in their early 20s and don't have children yet (and both have said not wanting some until they are in their 30s).
    Both have cats (A has 1 cat and B has 2 cats at home).

    Candidate A pros:
    - has a house and backyard
    - runs every morning
    - lives with her parents and her mom stays home during the day

    Candidate A cons:
    - has never had a dog (though her father has had many)
    - seems to want to spoil and love the dog but may not be "strict" with training (EDIT: by which I mean to control the resource guarding)

    Candidate B pros:
    - has owned a shiba who now lives with her parents (who couldn't part with the dog when she left for a different city)
    - is studying psychology with an interest in animal behaviour (positive training only)
    - would walk her twice a day

    Candidate B cons:
    - lives in an apartment for now (until August when she will move back into a house with fenced backyard)
    - works 9-5 so Kimura would be crated 8 hours

    So each have 3 pros and 2 cons, and now we're stuck with who's a better match for the cutest puppy ever :P

    PS: sorry I need so much help, you guys have no idea how much all your input is helping though!
    Post edited by Kimura at 2013-01-19 15:36:30
  • Is it candidate B who lives in an apt? (it says candidate A cons).

    I'd probably go with A because I would not want my dog crated for 8 hours, and I don't really see any benefits to this person whatsoever except for prior Shiba experience.

    I don't think training and being "strict" matters very much, so I don't think that that is a con to candidate A.

    Ideally, though, I'd want to meet both of them and see how they interact with Kimura and how she reacts to them.
  • JuniJuni
    Posts: 1269
    I also, based on what you've put down here, would pick A. If she is committed I don't think it matters that she hasn't got the experience and I see no harm in loving and spoiling Kimura. I don't think it equals not training her if needed.

    Being crated and only 2 walks a day with choice B doesn't sound too good to me.
  • Yeah, I will say that spoiling doesn't necessarily equal letting training go. Zim is ridiculous spoiled (my New's Year's Resolution was to stop spending money on the dog) but we've made sure to stay on top of his resource guarding.

    That said, I would very carefully scrutinize someone who has as part of their plan having a parent care for a dog. Now, obviously that doesn't necessarily mean anything (I wasn't shirking responsibility for my pets when I lived with my mother) but it can indicate that you're not where you should be for having a dog. School can eat your time more than you realize and I've never met a college kid who I really thought had enough money for a dog. Basically what I'm saying is that while I do think that having someone home all day with the dog is a good thing, I'm not sure I view it as so great that it will be a parent instead of an owner. The place in life of the owner may not be ideal and I would worry about the responsibility of the dog being passed on to someone you didn't rehome her to during the day, which might not be something that person appreciates.
  • KimuraKimura
    Posts: 191
    It's not so much that love equals no training, it's more that talking to her, she has mostly ignored questions and comments about training and I get the feeling she might not put many rules in place...
    The walks for B would 1 hour each, so it's not that bad.
    I was also thinking the crating all day is a strong con for B, but A has two more years of college, after which she's probably going to move out of her parents' place and start her career. I'm guessing eventually she'll have to crate too (or give the run of the place or a playpen type area, but too be far, that's an option for B too.

    It sounds like I'm defending B, doesn't it...? I'm getting a good feeling about her...
    Keep opinions coming, as I've said before, I suck at making decisions :(
  • KimuraKimura
    Posts: 191
    @notoriousscrat: that's my feeling too. I feel like it would be spoiling "instead" of controling the guarding. And I do feel like the mom would take the responsibility as much or more than the person herself, and then when she moves out there will be separation from one or the other, and who knows what situation she'll be in...
    Post edited by Kimura at 2013-01-19 17:12:26
  • InoushiInoushi
    Posts: 555
    I say see how she interacts with the dog, don't feel committed to give Kimura to A if she comes to visit you, but doesn't have what it takes. I also think it may be worth holding out for a C who may be better prepared. Honestly, Kimura sounds best for an older person with dog experience, and I don't think a yard is an important factor (I raise Kenshin in an apartment). Many of the pros you listed for A, are honestly things she can do now while she is still in the care of her parents. What if something goes wrong down the road?

    This is coming from a person who was a sophomore in college who also lived at home when I got Kenshin. I still live at home, and am grateful my parents will also assist me while I attend Grad school. If I didn't have that support, I would not have gotten a dog.
  • roxanneroxanne
    Posts: 83
    I hate to be negative, but I feel for you so much, and must be honest. I really think you may want a third or fourth choice. The negatives are pretty strong, and one of your positives feels more like a negative to me. Specifically, Candidate A at first sounded good, because the dog wouldn't need to be crated for 8 hours. That's a lot for a Shiba. The problem I have with C-A is that the Mom is the one being home during the way, making her a huge part in the dog's life, and if she isn't really ready to be a Shiba person, with the exercise and the behavior issues that inevitably will come up, the dog will wind up being crated anyway or at least not getting the positive training they need. Then when C-A moves out, there will be separation issues, not fair.

    I would keep looking, for someone with a little more grounding and experience.

    Bottom line, if you don't find someone, there are people available to give temporary shelter. Lots of Shiba lovers online. I will try to get some resources for you. Does anyone else have any ideas about this?
  • glitchglitch
    Posts: 189
    from what you told me I'd probably choose B.. You said she's moving to a bigger space in a few months anyways. The only thing you might want to mention is how it may be beneficial for her to drop off Kimura to a dog daycare a few times a week or have a dog walker during some days.

    I just feel this may be a better option since she seems like she's out on her own and working already so she has a more steady schedule probably. Not to mention she has more experience with dogs.
    Students change so much depending on their job after school.. I'm assuming choice A is still a student if she's living at home.
  • RikkaRikka
    Posts: 1501
    I personally like candidate B, and mostly because the crating 8 hours a day thing could be managed, especially with creating an alternative, like an ex-pen and/or trusting her enough to not even need a crate. Kimura is 8-months-old, right? Sagan is her age and can freely roam the house without needing a crate now without any accidents or mishaps, but it obviously ranges from dog to dog.
    Lauren, living with a 4 y/o Shiba named after a scientist. ☆
  • ShibaLoveShibaLove
    Posts: 554
    Out of these two I like B and that may be because she sounds like me! Well when I went to grad school i left Nikko at my parents. That is where he was raised and I didn't know what the schedule would be like. After a year I knew what to expect and was so glad to move Nikko to me. So I don't think that is anything to hold against her. I mean my parents were as attached to Nikko as me...almost. I also am in an apartment and while it would be more convenient for me to have a yard I do not see that as a negative. If anything I don't have a yard to fall back on when I am lazy and it forces me to walk him all the time. I think since the reason you are rehoming Kimura is resource guarding you should really focus on a home that you know she will get good training and being Shiba savvy in this case may be good. I have had to evaluate homes for fosters (and some pretty difficult ones) and know that it is challenging and stressful. Just do what you think feels right and if none of them do right now then that is your answer.

    Also I know many people have mentioned a Shiba rescue for you but since you had candidates might not have thought you needed it. I think that it could really help you out to have someone objective evaluate homes for Kimura. Plus they have experience with it. I am sure they would be willing to keep you in the loop about choosing a good home but might be able to offer better advice than us since they will have the opportunity to meet the candidate and do a home check. That is the best advice I can give. Good luck!
  • GemmaGemma
    Posts: 103
    Personally I like the sound of person B, and it sounds like you do too! Also it sounds alot like me, I'm only 18 and live at home with my parents, I'm at college 3 days a week from 9-4, luckily my dad's at home to give her "crate breaks" and I give her two walks a day and Laika is doing fine! :) But I do agree with what other people have said, letting them meet Kimura and seeing how they interact with her is probably what I'd go on from here. Some people click with shibas and others just don't! :) I hope you find the perfect home for her!
  • KimuraKimura
    Posts: 191
    Thanks for all the opinions and ideas.
    The problem with both is that they are both 800km away from me, in different cities. Person A, there is a rescue from which I could ask for help, person B I don't think there is.
    A would fly to my home and stay a bit to see if she clicks with her, B we would drive and meet in the middle to see how they click. But I can't make either of these people do that to then tell them I need to meet the other candidate and then have one or the other drive or fly again. It's too much time and money for all parties involved, sadly. So I feel I need to choose the one I think has the best chance and just hope that for some weird reason Kimura doesn't hate her or vice-versa...

    I have Skyped with A last week and I'm Skyping B tomorrow to get a better feel of her personnality!
  • jennajenna
    Posts: 154
    I would definitely prefer B over A. The crating, to me, is a non-issue as there are many alternatives. I lived for years in a very small Manhattan apartment and worked 10 hours a day with two very happy Shibas.

    The primary reason you're rehoming Kimura is the resource guarding. She needs to be with an owner who will set boundaries and be strict with the rules of accepted behavior. I think going with A would be setting her up to fail.
    jenna -> founder of nyc shiba rescue, inc.
    snickers -> master of shiba mind control
  • I'm pretty surprised by how many people think 8 hours of crating isn't a big deal. I don't think either person is ideal, but crating 8 hours is a no way for me, and frankly, I just don't trust people to NOT do that regardless of what they say. And how do you know she's really going to move out of the apt to a bigger place? I wouldn't count that as a plus til it happens.

    Resource guarding doesn't get fixed with boundaries and strictness; it gets fixed with behavior modification the patience and desire to make changes. I'm dubious about either of these people dealing with this, actually, but then again, if there's not a child there in the house maybe it doesn't matter.

    I think it if were me, I would not want to give the dog to either person without meeting them in person and seeing them interact with the dog. I know that's a problem given their locations, but that's really the best way to get a sense of who they are and how the dog reacts to them. That's why I'd also, again, suggest Shiba rescue which will have more resources in place to find a home than you do.

    In some ways, person A is better because she does have her parents there, too, to help if she can't do everything. Both are students, and both may have a lot of changes in their lives. I'm just going to say this, though I know there are plenty of people here who have managed it, but for me, ideally, I would not want to rehome a dog with a student. I've seen way way too many students give up the dog when they decide to go live abroad or move somewhere that doesn't allow dogs, or whatever. I've seen that with people here, and I've seen that with people I know IRL, and for me, it's too risky.

    (And for all of you students who are doing fine with your dog right now, great. I'm not talking about you.)
  • Kobe1468Kobe1468
    Posts: 1588
    Did you get her from a breeder? If so may be a good idea to talk to the breeder. They would certaintly know of good homes to place Kimura. I also live in Ontario and had a heck of a time finding Kobe. Few Shiba breeders around! Just something to think about....good luck!!
    "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened."
  • I think A could be a good choice, if and only if the mother is willing and able to take on a shiba with resource guarding issues. I would focus on the mum rather than the daughter, as she will be the one who spends the most time with Kimura and may end up keeping her if the daughter moves away. I got my two basenjies at the age of 18 when I was studying and living at home. My Dad was home during the day. My parents generally spoiled the basenjies and let them develop a lot of bad habits (feeding them from the table, letting them growl, never enforcing any boundaries, etc) but they were also very helpful, letting me live at home rent-free while I studied, helping with vet bills, and so. Even after I Ieft home, my parents continued to let the dogs come and stay when I needed it, such as when I went on holiday, moved house, or when dog had a operation and the other one decided that would be a good time to make a bid for being top dog.
    The upshot of what I am saying (in a long-winded way) is, if the parents are supportive, it will be OK.
  • zandramezandrame
    Posts: 1106
    At what stage in their education are these girls? Is B moving in August after graduation? Like everyone else said, students are not ideal candidates for stability, but then again, some are more adjusted than others. Still, I would be most comfortable after having Kimura meet them in person and see how they interact. I know the distance is a big factor, but meeting halfway does seem like a good compromise, and it shows that you are both serious.

    Anyhow, given the details I would prefer B over A. She's familiar with shibas, is studying animal psychology, and seems better suited for Kimura's resource guarding problem.

    And just because B says she would crate during work hours doesn't mean she's against other means of daily care. Have you discussed other alternatives? What is Kimura used to currently? Is she destructive?

    Was candidate A the one whose mom has allergies? And this is the mom who would likely be the primary care giver?

    One point not touched on - how does Kimura do with cats?
  • Also, I think there's a huge difference between crating during the day for 8 hours straight and crating all day but coming home for lunch. It sounds like it's the first (in which case, I would want to make sure there was a plan for a dog walker or something, myself) but it's not explicit, so I figure it's worth mentioning.
  • JuniJuni
    Posts: 1269
    I think you should trust your gut feeling. You have some more opinions now so you can ask a few more questions, not sure if we helped or not..,but good luck!
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    I think at this point you should reach out to the rescue up in the area near the two candidates, explain your situation, and see if they have someone who can meet each candidate, do a home visit, and maybe provide their insights and opinions.

    I don't believe via email and phone conversations you can really make a determination. Also going into dog ownership we all believe we will handle things a certain way and the problems issues won't be for us (human nature) and how we deal with our dogs becomes an evolving process.

    I would be concerned that in A's case sounds like it really is Mom you have to deal with as Mom is the one that will have to deal with the issues daily. Also if candidate A doesn't understand the value of training, if anything for her to learn more about dogs and dog behavior, that would concern me. It isn't about spoiling as much as it is about learning how to read and shape behaviors, especially with a dog coming in that has known issues. I am not sure A and A's Mom fully understand what it means to have a Shiba and especially one with some known issues to work on.

    I like candidate B. I do wonder about 8 hours of crating and additional time if she is a student and works, but again I believe things evolve. Something about my impression through you is that she wants to invest in giving the dog a good life and already understands the nature of Shiba's and what issues there are. It also sounds like B's life will shift a little in a few months and crating isn't necessarily a long term possibility. Is B the one you came across first?

    I think you need to make a decision though and put a final chapter on this issue before you drive yourself too nuts. Know you are doing the best and at some point you just have to trust moving forward with this decision.
  • KimuraKimura
    Posts: 191
    Thanks for all your insight, shiba people :D
    I will try today to have a cat come over to make sure that's not a problem.
    I will discuss the crating issue with candidate B tonight when we Skype.
    If candidate B doesn't fully wow me, I will insist on talking to the mom of candidate A.
    And I will make a decision and stick to it very soon, I promise!
    Thanks for putting up with me through all this ;)
  • InoushiInoushi
    Posts: 555
    I do think if kimura has resource issues, she should not be with a cat. If that cat goes into a space she claims, her reaction can be pretty dangerous for the cat. I really don't think either candidate is ideal for Kimura. If your in a rush to find her a new home, I really think a dedicated rescue is the better option. If it doesn't pan out with either candidate, what happens when they are far away and can't bring her back? I really think if you hold out longer you will find a better person. Maybe talk to local breeders as well to see if they know anyone with shiba experience looking for an older puppy.

    Kimura has issues, that will make rehoming her a bit more difficult, but its important, because if she is put in the wrong home, it could result in her doing something that may have fatal consequences.
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    I am not sure one day with a cat will tell you much. It takes time and work to introduce a Shiba and a cat. After 8 months this is still an evolving process with my Shiba and cats some days. Each candidate needs a plan. Keeping cat food in a safe area the dog can't get too. Giving the cats safe areas they can go away from the dog. And a lot if supervised slow introductions can work, but they need plans and understanding any dog-cat relationship takes time on top of resource guarding issues.
  • tatonkatatonka
    Posts: 1210
    Im just going to add: don't negatively evaluate a person because they have an apartment and not a house. Because I don't live in a house with the convenience of a backyard I make sure Tatonka always has the opportunity to go potty, which means long walks (on weekends 4-5 times a day). It's much harder to "slack off" on doggie care in a small apartment without your place looking like a pooped up disaster zone. I think it's much easier to "slack off" in a home.

    Some of the laziest dog owners I know live in big houses.

    You should evaluate them based on their enthusiasm for being a good dog owner - not their living situ.

    On a side note, I never understand the thing with dogs pooping in backyards. You clean up poop anywhere else with a bag, but you let it sit in steaming piles in your own backyard? o_O
    Post edited by tatonka at 2013-01-20 13:20:43
  • ShibaLoveShibaLove
    Posts: 554
    I know many people have mentioned observing how Kimura and the potential adopter interact, but I don't really see how that will help much. In the few adoptions I have observed the shiba is totally not interested in the person because for all they know this is a complete stranger and not someone to adopt them. Of course I have mostly dealt with aloof shibas and I I think I remember Kimura being more friendly. Anyways just noting that I have never seen a great "spark" upon first meet so I wouldn't count on that. It will probably come down to what impression you get of the person.
    -Side note: Sometimes multiple people in a household are not necessarily good if everyone is not exactly on the same page as far as training and discipline.
  • InuzooInuzoo
    Posts: 215
    question.. How is A mom about having a shiba? A fenced backyard and a person who doesn't have time for a shiba or new puppy in general could equate to lots of alone time in a fenced back yard. I am leaning toward B with Shiba knowledge. As all of us have discovered, cute yes, busy, yes, challenging heck yes!! Zooey is crated Monday- Friday for about 6 hours with our staggered working, though not ideal, she sleeps. She naps a lot even on the weekends unless we are camping. Tough decision and I am sure you will find the best one. Try interaction visits and go with your gut.
  • roxanneroxanne
    Posts: 83
    I vote either look for other candidates or get him to a rescue. They have resources to find good matches, and that's what they do. I am impressed with how much feedback you've gotten. These are special dogs and there's a lot of concern for him as well as for you! That's awesome. I hope you find resolution soon. Also, thank you for recognizing the need to re-home him, instead of trying to make something work that wasn't meant to be. People tend to get attached and inadvertently squash the spirit of the animals, making it worse for everyone involved. I know you'll miss him, but you'll both find what you need! (*)
  • KimuraKimura
    Posts: 191
    @ShibaLove: that's a good point. Kimura is super friendly with everyone who comes over (unless they get close to her food when she eats of course). She wants to interact and play with everybody. I've never seen her brush off or even ignore anyone, so whe will probably "click" with either person. We were going to have person A over more so she can see Kimura and observe the guarding than anything else. Person B understands the issue quite well and wasn't surprised about it because she knows shibas (and a lot of dogs) can have that tendency. So she doesn't really need to observe it as much. And I do worry about the family of person A because I get the feeling the mom isn't really on board with the idea.
    @roxanne: I am impressed with the feedback too :D And thank you for your nice comments about re-homing her. A lot of people are of the opinion that giving up isn't good and that you should always find a way to make things work...
    @everybody (lol): thank you for your help!
  • Wish I had seen this thread sooner...

    I own Kimura's sister, Tess, and I've actually met candidate A and her mother. They came to our home to allergy test. They are very nice people, and I think they both have the best of intentions. But the more I think about them, the more my gut tells me that they may end up rehoming her again. With no shiba experience, and not much dog experience in the household, I think they may not know how to handle her issues and think it's all Kimura's fault and give up on her.

    I'd give them about 50/50 on keeping her. Granted, I only met them once. They were great with Tess, and they live not too far from us so I'm already imagining sister puppy playdates and whatnot. But, my gut is telling me there may be a better option. No criticism of them intended, I just don't think they're necessarily the right family for a shiba with resource guarding issues.

    I really, really recommend you contact Jackie at Shiba Rescue GTA. She is such a nice woman, and even if her only involvement in your rehoming of Kimura is to chat with you via email and offer advice, I think you will be glad you contacted her.

    Good luck!
  • KimuraKimura
    Posts: 191
    Thanks Rebecca!
    I will e-mail her today. We have decided to choose candidate B and should be driving to meet her Saturday, but talking to Jackie can give me tips on helping the process of re-homing for Kimura.
    Incidentally, we hear candidate A might be adopting a shiba/husky mix from a local shelter and we wish her the best if she does.

    Thanks again to everyone for your help. If it's ok with everybody, I'll stick around as candidate B intends on joining so I can follow Kimura's progress :D
  • This may be a little bit late. But you may want to ask candidate B if she has done any research on Therapy Dogs.

    I rescued my shiba from an animal shelter this summer. We are currently in training for her to be a Therapy Dog. I am a middle school teacher and Emma comes to school with me. We also visit a nursing home once a month. I know it is not typical Shiba behavior, but Emma loves people of all ages and sizes - I think she considers them her loyal subjects who come from afar to pay their respects.

    Either way, if she is studying psychology, it might be a cool venue for her to check out. Emma is the smallest dog in our group of Therapy dogs, but she is also the cutest :o) People love her and her very soft fur.
  • KimuraKimura
    Posts: 191
    I can ask her. I get the feeling she'd love to engage in activities with Kimura. I know she did training classes with her other shiba and intends on doing them with Kimura. But Kimura being super social so far, that would be a great idea (if she can get her to calm down a little and be a little more obedient ;) but she's just a puppy, there is hope!).
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    @Kimura, I am glad to see that you are moving forward with the transition, but doing so correctly still seeking advice and help. I feel that you have been through a lot and I admire your dedication to seeing the process through re-homing her correctly. From what I can tell with what is shared on the forum, I think you are making a good choice.
  • KimuraKimura
    Posts: 191
    @redcattoo: thanks, I'm trying to do what's best for sure! And I have to say I feared a lot of judgment for "giving up" (that's partly how it feels), but most people here and IRL have been very understanding and supportive!
    I'm off to obedience class tonight to try to pass on a puppy with some manners, though I have to say it's been tempting to start just letting her come on the furniture, walk willy-nilly and eat what she wants off the ground ... lol. But I am not, I am still enforcing decent boundaries and working on the guarding etc. to try to give her the best chance for success with her new family :D
  • RyanRyan
    Posts: 293
    You get a good vibe from B? There's your answer. Just work through the "crating for 8 hrs thing". My dogs have access to a few shiba proof rooms when I am out, depending on the size of the apartment it wouldnt be too bad. My brother drops by during the day sometimes and visits them. The dogs get a 30min + run every day at the minimum through to a 2hr trek some nights and on weekends. They also go visiting with me to friends, car rides, eating out etc and seem happy.
    Bella (Sherae Aka Akicho) | F | Born 27/1/2012
    Suki (Aust. Ch. Betlin Takaisuki) | M | Born 03/02/2005, adopted 10/09/2012
  • amtiamti
    Posts: 1066
    Wishing you well, and Kimura a very happy new home! You've been an important person to her so you have a special place in her heart.

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