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Invisible fences, fence and no fences or no invisible fences..
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    Post edited by curlytails at 2012-11-25 14:51:24
  • EthosEthos
    Posts: 372
    what is an invisible fence?
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    Post edited by Saya at 2012-11-26 00:49:17
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
  • kumaDUDEkumaDUDE
    Posts: 1259
    I have to say that invisible fence is as bad as shock collars or no bark collars.

    I live in an apartment, Kuma and I go for long walks every day I'm there and when I'm not the wife takes him and baby boy for walks around the block.

    I agree that apartment living does give you that "wanna get out with my dogs" feel. My nephew takes Kuma to his rental home while in college and Kuma loves having a backyard he can go out and do his laps in, he still gets his daily exercise and if he wants to play outside he has that luxury that he doesn't have at my apartment.

    So in all, I think that no fence, fenced, and apartment living, all have their pros and cons.
    But I think an invisible fence is just cruel to an animal. How would you like wearing a collar and get shocked every time you try to go out.... (Hopefully wife doesn't get any ideas about putting that on me) :/

    *edit* just realized not all will agree about certain things so I removed that part of the comment.
    Post edited by kumaDUDE at 2012-11-25 13:13:16
  • Post edited by shibamistress at 2012-11-25 13:39:28
  • kumaDUDEkumaDUDE
    Posts: 1259
    @shibamistress thanks for the links
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4786
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    Since I have been following and reading several of the threads that lead up to this, let me say I don't care where you live .... mid city apartment, house in suburbia, or way out in the country ... you can give any dog, even a Shiba a great life.

    If anyone is curious about my choice, I live in a nice house on a golf course. We have no fence due to our community requirements. We have a screened in pool with two pet doors that access it and a secured outdoor atrium area with a pet door access that is where Bear was potty trained to go if he needed too. Anytime Bear is outside the house areas he is on leash, even if it is a 30 foot leash he drags while running with us on the golf course.

    I think the member who said "You people who live in apartments should not subject your pets to such pointless confinement. If you are going to have a pet, you should at least have several acres, live in the country..." is very off base and overly judgmental about people's living choices.

    In a lot of way I believe owners who have living space that does not allow every day runs outside off leash are more bonded to their dogs. By not being in the country you find a lot of creative things to do with your Shiba, whether it be nice long walks, trips to the beach, trips to a state park, trips to dog parks, trips to pet stores, and lots of creative mind stimulating games to play.

    That aside, on the issue of physical fence, invisible fence, no fence .... No matter what you chose for safety and containment of your Shiba, I believe interacting with them and playing with them is of ultimate importance. This means if you live where you can have any type of fence I still wouldn't agree with letting your dog out there unsupervised. Even if you are just sitting like you would at a dog park, using a fence whether invisible or not to just let your dog run unsupervised I believe is wrong (and quite lazy of the owner).

    I have an Aunt who used the invisible fence system, even wiring it under her floor to keep her dog in certain allowed areas of the house. I never saw anything negative as a kid when we visited her and the dog, plus the dog got lots of long walks too. So before ever owning a dog I probably would have considered an invisible fence system.

    The more I have researched and now knowing my own dog, I am glad we decided not to do an invisible fence, which would have been our only good option based on our community restrictions. I see the very high intelligence and very high prey drive in Bear. I fully believe given the right circumstance (ie another very enticing dog or squirell) would easily send him past the invisible fence even with a shock because he gets so singularly focused. Problem would be after he lost that focus he probably also wouldn't return home as the shock would keep him now outside the fence.

    I also know even though we live in a golf course community in a city area we have at least two coyotes in our area that have already ate indoor/outdoor cats and we believe some small dogs. An invisible fence would not keep them from possibly roaming into our yard and therefore if Bear would be there unsupervised could in an instant become a major issue. Also what if another dog has wandered into the area and pooed and what if that dog had giardia, now you let your dog out unsupervised and it eats or rolls in that poo, now you have a possible giardia situation.

    If I ever lived someplace where a fence was a normal part of the community, I would put up a physical fence buried at least 4-6 inches down, not an invisible fence. This is to ensure I had control of the area for safety and keep out animals/people who don't belong coming into our area. Even then though I would never not be supervising Bear's free running in that area off leash.

    I guess my rant is to say I don't care what you chose to use, even though I would say the invisible fence is the worst option, supervision even off leash is very important. Bonding with your dog and providing them a wide range of new experiences is very important. Anything, even a country yard, can become routine and boring. We chose to own pets not just to let them run free and have their independence, but to build that unconditional bond they give us.
  • BarrowBarrow
    Posts: 69
    love the pictures of Saya and "Saya's Domain"! What a great place to have a Shiba!
  • we had to get a fence, I love my shiba dearly but she doesn't exhibit much of the high intellegence the breed is known for and wouldn't be able to find her way back home if she took off. If you are thinking no fence weigh your dog's personality/behavior/intellegence into the decision first.
  • I do not have a fenced yard. I do, however, have a pen that is just a few yards from the house, but I don't let Okami out in it anymore as it is waaaay overgrown in there and she gets bugs on her way too easily, even with repellent :/

    Anytime Okami has to go out (potty break, walk, etc.) she is on a leash. I dunno why, but I feel like, even if I do one day have a fenced yard, I just don't like the idea of just letting my dog(s) out and waiting for them to come back once they've done their business. Not that I have anything against those that do, I just personally love to leash up my dog and take her out every time she has to/wants to go out.

    Now, having a fenced in yard WOULD be nice so that Okami could go off leash. As it is, I don't trust her off leash (her prey drive is just too insane) so she never has complete freedom. She does do well on a retractable, and I'm trying to see about getting a really long 40ft nylon leash, so she can still run around in her Shiba 500 when she wants. But I suppose that, even if the yard were fenced, she would still not have that *almost* complete freedom of dogs who's owners have a ton of land for them to roam without getting into too much trouble on.

    I also don't believe in dog parks in my area, so unfortunately those are out of the question. Every now and then I do get lucky and the park is clear of people, so Okami does have a short time to run around like a nut for a while xP
  • WendyNCWendyNC
    Posts: 257
    I'm lazy, so I'm very glad for our physically fenced yard which is accessed directly from the door which leads to the covered porch running the length of the house. I'm rather grateful for the porch, too, when it's raining.
  • Post edited by curlytails at 2012-11-25 22:34:10
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
  • @ Saya: wow that lab is a cute chunky monkey.

    Would say...how we see and interpret the world as humans is quite different than our canine companions. Overall it is important to avoid making assumptions based on lackadaisical reasoning/justifications or spiffy marketers who are more than happy to sell their "invisible" products regardless of the long term consequences to our canines. There are just too many examples of the horrors of invisible fence training and behavior fall out for me personally to even consider it. I think it allows owners to be a bit too lazy about what their dog is up to. Electronics fail and if the product causes pain then why even go there, it's just counter productive in the long run. Especially in the relationship building part. We use a leash instead, it's the cheapest and safer solution in a pinch.

    @ Curly Tails - Great points.....Thanks for the info!

    --Pulled from previous threaded discussion....Door bolting is a training issue that can be managed with use of a crate and proper handling. It should have nothing to do with electronic yard containment or shock collars.

    --About electronic yard containment, one of the biggest issues I see is it DOES involve the use of a shock collar which most owners are under the assumption does no harm to their dog. At some point the system fails and it's that fall out can create life long havoc in the training dept. Most often the displacement behavior makes it very difficult to undo from a behaviorist aspect.

    In my opinion it's simply not worth the gamble if mistakes happen. Often by use of the product we as dog owners stack one behavioral problem right on top of another or trade one undesired response for another much bigger one, further complicating training or remediation.

    I am adding more info on the topic of "invisible" fences and shock containment systems:

    Yin, S. (2011) Are Shock Collars Painful or Just annoying to dogs? A 2004 Study Reveals some answers. Posted Jan 24, 2011 http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/are-electronic-shock-collars-painful-or-just-annoying-to-dogs-a-new-study-r

    Schilder, Mattthijs, and Vander Borg, Joanne. (October 2003). Training Dogs with Help of Shock Collars: Short and Long Term Behavior. Applied Animal Behavior Science 85 (2004). pp. 319-334. Retrieved from http://82.221.28.69/media/ljosmyndir/dyralif/Trainingdogswithshockcollar.pdf

    Abstract: Dutch Study on Short and Long Term Behavioral Effects of Shock Collar Training: Conclusion: That being trained can be stressful, that receiving shocks is a painful experience to dogs, and that the S-dogs evidently have learned that the presence of their owner (or his commands) announces reception of shocks, even outside of the normal training.

    Miller, P. (2003) Simply Shocking. Retrieved from
    http://www.peaceablepaws.com/

    Miller, P. (2006) Shock or Awe. Retrieved from
    http://www.peaceablepaws.com/


    Further Resources:

    http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/illusions-quotinvisiblequot-fencing

    http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/does-electric-fencing-condition-aggressionfear

    http://www.pacificanimal.org/Shock Collars - The Ugly Truth.pdf

    http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/invisible fences- the bad and the ugly.pdf

    http://www.canismajor.com/dog/fences1.html

    http://care.dogboston.com/invisible-fences-–-good-or-bad/
    Post edited by StaticNfuzz at 2012-11-26 11:38:08
  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 8589
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    As I continue to follow the chain, I should add that while I don't have a fence, if we just want to lounge around outside together a 30ft or longer leash works just fine for us. Even if we drop the leash while playing around on the golf course we can easily get Bear back to us with recall close enough to grab the leash and reel him in the rest of the way if needed.

    We are lucky though to have some really great dog park options, one especially is in a great neighborhood with really great people who frequent the park, so we do get off leash time together both during agility training and at the dog park to make up for not having off leash time at home.

    I enjoy the bonding we do without a fenced in area ... we walk together an hour or more every morning during the week before I go to work, my husband and Bear usually hang around together during the day and sometimes my husband has him out on his 30 ft leash when doing yard work, Bear and I train and play together inside in the evenings, sometimes we even go outside and do recall training on the golf course with the 30 ft leash. Weekends we go everywhere, the beach, the dog parks, the state parks, anything that is new and interesting for us to do.

    I only dream of a fenced in yard days/nights I am so tired I want to be lazy ... if that is why I want a fence, it is better I don't have one at all!
  • We had an invisible fence with Toby at first then he learned that if he rubbed his neck against the tree he could move the collar and would bolt through the bushes. It only took him about 6 months to learn to do that. With Nikita's high prey drive we knew a fence was the only option so she could run with the kids.

    We are not aloud a privacy fence or permanent fence because we are on a corner lot so we put up a t post fence. For some reason its considered temporary not sure why it is stronger than the chain link the neighbors had put up, there English Mastiff knocked it down with in 3 days of install then jumped on ours to play with Nikita and the t-post fencing was fine. I kept the Mastiff from wondering off again but glad we don't let them out unsupervised since I am not sure how well they would have got along if he would have knocked over the fence. If Toby had his choice he would be outside all the time but we only let him out if I am downstairs to keep an eye on him. The kids let Nikita out when they are downstairs since she is usually following them around and the kids usually go out with her unless it is raining (she will only sit on the porch then). The fence has helped over a long leash with the kids running around the yard so that no one gets tripped while Nikita is playing fetch.

    My mom doesn't have a fence so when we go there for the day we alternate who goes in the outdoor pen, who is on an extended leash or tie out (if we are swimming), or who is inside (I don't let them in very often because their are too many kids, around 8 of them, in and out all day unless they are with me and dragging a leash just in case). I don't put them both in the pen at the same time, even though the pen is the whole underside of the porch fenced in, we had an incident once when my moms dog ran up to the pen to play with Toby and Nikita started playing pretty ruff with Toby the positive was the pen door is 3 steps from the pool so the problem was solved quickly.

    Overall I would never use an invisible fence again. And it would depend on the dog on fence or no fence. Toby would have been fine with his bathroom walks and daily long walk but Nikita likes to run and play with the kids so a fence was better for her the walks were just not making her a tired as trying to play catch with 5 kids in a fenced yard. .
  • CrystalWolfCrystalWolf
    Posts: 235
    I have a tiny side yard maybe .20 if that. I do have a zip line but my shiba riku does not go not his due to only having him 2 weeks and still potty training(no mistakes in the house though). I do put my pit on the zip line. But when she is done doing her business she just sits by the door or lays in the sun.

    I try to take riku and daisy on daily walks but now it's to hot for that and may attempt to at night if I'm. It to wore out from work. I was going to fence in what yard I do have but decided not to as I do plan to move to tn in the next yr or so.
    Post edited by CrystalWolf at 2013-05-21 11:13:08
  • JacksMom13JacksMom13
    Posts: 133
    Worst (and expensive) decision we made. we used it one time for training and we will never use or recommend it. we did it because the area we moved to was snooty about fences being put up. Now we are going to spend even more money (well worth it this time I hope) to put up a physical fence so that Jack can have freedom to play in his own yard without a leash/tie-out. suck it snooty neighbors.

    [edit] it's not our neighbor's fault they are snooty. this was all our fault for being so naive and ignorant. the training was so horrible and the trainer was such a jack-ass we should have known at that moment we made a mistake. but we waited a few weeks after Jack's trauma mostly trying to dissociate "pain" from going out in the yard and going over the driveway. we stupidly thought we would try again and train him though. 4 weeks after that training, the minute we showed him the leash/collar for the 2nd attempt on our own, he hid in the bedroom. I never even tried - obviously he remembered. by then it was too late to return the system. How dumb we were to think that training on pain and fear would ever work. it's never worked for us. I hate that fence (mostly I'm still mad at us for even thinking it was a solution.)
    Post edited by JacksMom13 at 2014-04-12 20:06:10
  • poltergeistpoltergeist
    Posts: 426
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4786
  • Jshaw1993Jshaw1993
    Posts: 25
    For those of you who have fences, what do you think is the best height? I see that lindsayt has 6ft and I was just curious as to what other people have.
  • Post edited by shibamistress at 2014-04-14 14:13:26
  • Just a note that you may also have a combo jumper/climber. That's what my girl does. She will take a running start, leap onto the fence, and climb the rest of the way up and over. That's one reason why wooden fencing (though more expensive and with greater maintenance issues) can be a lot more reassuring.
  • Hi all,

    Hoping to revive this thread. Do any of you have experiences with wireless fences? Or even the wired kind? If so, can you please share your experiences? Specifically, the brand you tried and whether it was successful or not at deterring your dog from escaping or did they just ignore it?

    Some background: I have a backyard fully enclosed by a 6 foot wood fence. I am keenly aware that they are escape artists so she is not left free in the backyard (or in any part of my house) unless I am home. She is allowed to come and go to the backyard as long as I am on the main floor and able to monitor her. I will not be using the invisible fence as an actual fence, but more so as a safety in case she ever escapes.

    Any advice on what to purchase and if you think it would actually be effective at stopping her from running away if she did happen to escape would be appreciated.
  • spacedogsspacedogs
    Posts: 361
    I would say it's not worth it. There's more chance of it having a negative affect on your dog than actually being of use. If you're willing to dig up the perimeter of your yard to bury invisible fencing under your existing fencing you might as well just pour some concrete and bury some chicken wire so she can't dig under the fence (my brother had to do this for his very diggy lab).

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