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Invisible fences, fence and no fences or no invisible fences..
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    Here's topic to talk about invisible fences, fences, and if you have no fences share your experiences with having zero fence yard..


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    Nicole, 5year old Bella(Boxer), and 4year old Saya(Shiba inu)
    Post edited by curlytails at 2012-11-25 14:51:24
  • EthosEthos
    Posts: 372
    what is an invisible fence?
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    I'll bring this up as apartment living falls under having no fences unless some have fences, but I dunno most I've been to don't.

    "You people who live in apartments should not subject your pets to such pointless confinement. If you are going to have a pet, you should at least have several acres, live in the country..."
    Just because a dog lives in a apartment doesn't mean it's in horrible confinement. Most aparment owners on her take their dogs on daily walks, walking at the park, beach, neighborhood, trip to the dog park, or play date with friend's dog.

    I think no yard can encourage people to be more proactive in exercising their dogs and being sure they're stimulated physically and mentally.

    Same side you think apartment dog's are cruel confined. same thing is about country dogs or people in city with yard..

    There's a perception with those people with fences leave their dogs alone to their own devices and never walk them thinking running in the yard is enough exercise.

    To me a walk is both physically stimulating and mentally as there is a lot of new scents and sights. Coarse not as good as exercise as a good run in a big space..

    I don't know people with fences and invisible fences personally so I can't make same assumptions..

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    I do agree chains are cruel I'm not fan of tie outs. I'm not against invisible fence, but don't think it's worth it as some dogs will run past it.

    "Saya's domain.. 16acres some is backyard, frontyard, most of it is field and some forest there is field 1 and field two with nice trails to walk and forest to explore.."
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    "Saya and Bella doesn't need it they do fine off leash. Saya wearing her gear bright green she always has on, but orange one she has during hunting season she also has jingle bells on helps me listen to her when she is exploring the brush."
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    My house used to have a invisible fence, but it didn't cover the front yard and plus our past three dogs didn't need it they are great off leash.. They're gone now due to old age or health issue we had to put them to sleep when it got worse..
    Anyways Saya and Bella do just fine. They're still working on ignoring deer.

    Saya will chase rabbits and she's doing good on leave it on them and she'll go after them when I tell her to.
    Saya has a high prey drive if she saw something she would go for it.

    Her fur is very thick so mot likely she'd not be bothered much by it.
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    "What's to stop coyotes, other dogs, etc from coming through the fence?"
    But coyotes don't come out during the day!! Well most people I know think this way not saying anyone here does, but some do..
    I've seen adult coyotes out in the trails and woods during the day.

    "Here's a coyote pup running away there was 5 or so pups playing in the trails coarse where there is pups there is a mom and dad coyote.."
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    Bella and saya do enjoy being outside, but I don't let them alone they're OK with it.

    Bella and Saya do sometimes play with the lab/mastiff, but I don't allow it much because she has bad habit of running in the road which I don't want my dogs to pick up on as they know not to go on the road.. Wish my neighbor would train their dog and exercise it.

    We've been outside once for about 2hours Saya exploring, digging for moles or sunning herself Bella running all over the place following me around on my yard work.

    You don't have to live in country in order to have a dog..
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    Nicole, 5year old Bella(Boxer), and 4year old Saya(Shiba inu)
    Post edited by Saya at 2012-11-26 00:49:17
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    @Ethos "what is an invisible fence?"

    It's a under ground wire thing you put underground the dog has a collar that will beep if the dog gets close to the wire and then they get a shock if they try go past it..

    I never used it myself as my dogs never need it and behaved fine off leash.

    You usually have to do training for it before the dog can be left in it so it learns what the boundary is and what happens if they try go past it.

    The fencing training usually includes flags to help show the boundary and you can take the flags out once the dog learns it.
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    Nicole, 5year old Bella(Boxer), and 4year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • kumaDUDEkumaDUDE
    Posts: 1259
    I have to say that invisible fence is as bad as shock collars or no bark collars.

    I live in an apartment, Kuma and I go for long walks every day I'm there and when I'm not the wife takes him and baby boy for walks around the block.

    I agree that apartment living does give you that "wanna get out with my dogs" feel. My nephew takes Kuma to his rental home while in college and Kuma loves having a backyard he can go out and do his laps in, he still gets his daily exercise and if he wants to play outside he has that luxury that he doesn't have at my apartment.

    So in all, I think that no fence, fenced, and apartment living, all have their pros and cons.
    But I think an invisible fence is just cruel to an animal. How would you like wearing a collar and get shocked every time you try to go out.... (Hopefully wife doesn't get any ideas about putting that on me) :/

    *edit* just realized not all will agree about certain things so I removed that part of the comment.
    Post edited by kumaDUDE at 2012-11-25 13:13:16
  • There are a few houses in my neighborhood where people use invisible fences and I do not like them.

    I walk my dogs leisurely in the neighborhood on leash and when we pass a house that uses invisible fences, you never really know if the dog is out in the unfenced yard or not.

    We walk on the sidewalk, adjacent to these yards, and sometimes my dogs will wander off to these unfenced yards sniffing/peeing/pooping (I always pick up after my dogs) like all dogs do and the dog from the house will come out of nowhere and start barking and lounging at my dogs. It is definitely not a pleasant surprise you enjoy while taking your dogs to a walk in your quiet neighborhood.
  • I'll probably add some more links to articles that talk about the way invisible fences can cause aggression and/or fearfulness in dogs later, but for right now, I thought we should link this previous thread on door bolting that includes a discussion of invisible fences from a few years back:

    http://www.shibainuforum.org/forum/discussion/532/door-bolting#Item_23

    Also, this is a link from Dogstar Daily, but if you scroll down about halfway, you'll see a list of links. There are a variety of them--some anecdotal from trainers/owners, some from studies about the effect of electric shock on the brain, etc.

    Here is the link: http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/does-electric-fencing-condition-aggressionfear
    Post edited by shibamistress at 2012-11-25 13:39:28
  • kumaDUDEkumaDUDE
    Posts: 1259
    @shibamistress thanks for the links
  • We have had Maggie for 6 months now (she is 8 months old), and all she has ever known is our little one bedroom apartment. Our apartment complex has a very small fenced in area for doggies that we take her to run around in in the evenings, and we have been fortunate enough to have a side apartment near a very large grassy area. During the summer, we frequently put her on a tie-out and would sit out there with her while she chased butterflies and laid in the sun. She loved it. And when we went to my parents' house (who don't have a fenced in yard), we would do the same thing in the front yard and hang out on the porch with her.

    My mother-in-law has a large, fenced-in backyard, and it wasn't until we took Mags there and let her run around for the first time when we realized Maggie was missing something. She had a blast running around the yard, chasing squirrels, half-attempting to climb trees, and that's when we really realized we wanted more for her. We started looking for houses with back yards, and we finally found one. We will be moving in this week. It has a huge backyard with a 6 food wooden fence going all the way around the bakc of the house. I'm so happy about it.

    We do NOT plan on leaving Maggie alone in the backyard unattended or unwatched. I don't care who says that dogs need to have their "own time" or anything of the sort - I will not have something unexpected happen because we were not adequately watching her. There is a porch by the back door and huge windows that overlook the backyard from the kitchen.

    I am wondering something though - do people who let their dogs run around in an unfenced yard on this forum have neighbors? I can totally understand being in the country and having dogs run around free if there are no neighbors (to an extent), but I think it's completely inappropriate if you do have neighbors or people near you.

    For example, my parents lease the house next door to them and someone just recently moved in with two dogs. My father did not warn us about this, which I am definitely frustrated about, but it's besides the point, I suppose. Anyways, while David was taking Maggie on a potty break around the back of the house, these two dogs ran up and started ganging up on Maggie. Maggie hit the ground in an attack stance and David scooped her up just in time to see one of the dogs lunge for her back legs. It made contact, but the skin was not broken. David started screaming at the dogs, and they ran back to their house next door. I heard David's screaming and Maggie's growling, so I ran outside to see what was going on. David shoved Maggie into my arms and went next door. I ran inside to call the police and David came back in to inform everyone that when he yelled at the neighbor to bring his dogs inside because one BIT Maggie, the neighbor laughed, said no, and said they've never been aggressive before. When the police officer came, he warned them, and my father let them know that their dogs need to be watched and on a leash at all times outside.

    APPARENTLY, the neighbors used to live on 10 acres of land and let their dogs run out all the time. However, they have neighbors now. IT ONLY TAKES ONE SECOND for anything to happen. No matter how much training a dog has, and no matter how non-aggressive you think your dog is, DOGS ACT ON INSTINCT. They are animals. Even if you are sitting on a porch watching your dog run around your unfenced yard - if something runs into your yard (a small child, another dog, a cat, etc.), in the time it takes you to CLIMB DOWN YOUR PORCH STEPS TO SEE WHAT'S GOING ON, your dog could be down the block attacking whatever just came into its territory.

    My dog did not need to be attacked on Thanksgiving. She didn't deserve that. My father doesn't understand why we "aren't training Maggie better to be an off-leash dog." Maggie is developing BEAUTIFUL recall and I couldn't be more proud of her when it comes to recall. Sure, we would love for Maggie to heel at all times and never leave our sides, but like I said before, dogs are animals and act on instinct. Absolutely anything could happen in a split second. And even if we had a GS or a Golden Retriever like my father thinks we should have gotten for their loyalty, we still wouldn't be letting them roam around off-leash.

    Wow, this turned into kind of a rant. Sorry! :P I just feel VERY strongly about dogs needing to be controlled (i.e. leash) or in a fenced in yard. It's not just for the safety of other animals that come into their territory, but also for the safety of your dog as well.
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4784
    Sarah, you made some great points about safety and responsibility. You're doing a great job with Maggie and being her advocate.
    "Common sense isn't so common"
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  • Haha, thanks @lindsayt. Like I said, I feel very strongly about not letting dogs roam around free and unattended. I'm upset Maggie had to be the victim, but I hope now that their only grandpup was in danger, my parents now understand better why I feel the way I do.
  • @Sarah_Jay12
    I definitely really feel you on a lot of this stuff. Like you, when we start looking at where we live next, we're definitely hoping to find someplace with a fenced in yard so we can have Zim out there on a supervised basis. Before we got Zim, I had actually said that I absolutely never wanted a yard (because I don't want to mow it) but oh how things have changed now.

    I also definitely agree with you that I don't see the fuss about off-leash dogs. Same as you, even if we had a golden retriever, I wouldn't bother. I would never let any dog I ever owned off-leash in area with streets (besides, there are leash laws here) unless there was a fence anyway. Seems to me that you're either letting your dog run free and chase things or you're walking them and I would never let any dog just run free without a fence, even a good off-leash breed, and if you're walking them and want them to be close, then what's the problem with a leash? My father-in-law seemed surprised this weekend that Zim wasn't able to be off-leash yet as well and, again, I just didn't see the fuss. My own thought was "where would we take him where there wasn't a fence and we'd want him to be off-leash anyway?" And I just couldn't think of anywhere.
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    Since I have been following and reading several of the threads that lead up to this, let me say I don't care where you live .... mid city apartment, house in suburbia, or way out in the country ... you can give any dog, even a Shiba a great life.

    If anyone is curious about my choice, I live in a nice house on a golf course. We have no fence due to our community requirements. We have a screened in pool with two pet doors that access it and a secured outdoor atrium area with a pet door access that is where Bear was potty trained to go if he needed too. Anytime Bear is outside the house areas he is on leash, even if it is a 30 foot leash he drags while running with us on the golf course.

    I think the member who said "You people who live in apartments should not subject your pets to such pointless confinement. If you are going to have a pet, you should at least have several acres, live in the country..." is very off base and overly judgmental about people's living choices.

    In a lot of way I believe owners who have living space that does not allow every day runs outside off leash are more bonded to their dogs. By not being in the country you find a lot of creative things to do with your Shiba, whether it be nice long walks, trips to the beach, trips to a state park, trips to dog parks, trips to pet stores, and lots of creative mind stimulating games to play.

    That aside, on the issue of physical fence, invisible fence, no fence .... No matter what you chose for safety and containment of your Shiba, I believe interacting with them and playing with them is of ultimate importance. This means if you live where you can have any type of fence I still wouldn't agree with letting your dog out there unsupervised. Even if you are just sitting like you would at a dog park, using a fence whether invisible or not to just let your dog run unsupervised I believe is wrong (and quite lazy of the owner).

    I have an Aunt who used the invisible fence system, even wiring it under her floor to keep her dog in certain allowed areas of the house. I never saw anything negative as a kid when we visited her and the dog, plus the dog got lots of long walks too. So before ever owning a dog I probably would have considered an invisible fence system.

    The more I have researched and now knowing my own dog, I am glad we decided not to do an invisible fence, which would have been our only good option based on our community restrictions. I see the very high intelligence and very high prey drive in Bear. I fully believe given the right circumstance (ie another very enticing dog or squirell) would easily send him past the invisible fence even with a shock because he gets so singularly focused. Problem would be after he lost that focus he probably also wouldn't return home as the shock would keep him now outside the fence.

    I also know even though we live in a golf course community in a city area we have at least two coyotes in our area that have already ate indoor/outdoor cats and we believe some small dogs. An invisible fence would not keep them from possibly roaming into our yard and therefore if Bear would be there unsupervised could in an instant become a major issue. Also what if another dog has wandered into the area and pooed and what if that dog had giardia, now you let your dog out unsupervised and it eats or rolls in that poo, now you have a possible giardia situation.

    If I ever lived someplace where a fence was a normal part of the community, I would put up a physical fence buried at least 4-6 inches down, not an invisible fence. This is to ensure I had control of the area for safety and keep out animals/people who don't belong coming into our area. Even then though I would never not be supervising Bear's free running in that area off leash.

    I guess my rant is to say I don't care what you chose to use, even though I would say the invisible fence is the worst option, supervision even off leash is very important. Bonding with your dog and providing them a wide range of new experiences is very important. Anything, even a country yard, can become routine and boring. We chose to own pets not just to let them run free and have their independence, but to build that unconditional bond they give us.
  • BarrowBarrow
    Posts: 69
    love the pictures of Saya and "Saya's Domain"! What a great place to have a Shiba!
  • we had to get a fence, I love my shiba dearly but she doesn't exhibit much of the high intellegence the breed is known for and wouldn't be able to find her way back home if she took off. If you are thinking no fence weigh your dog's personality/behavior/intellegence into the decision first.
  • I do not have a fenced yard. I do, however, have a pen that is just a few yards from the house, but I don't let Okami out in it anymore as it is waaaay overgrown in there and she gets bugs on her way too easily, even with repellent :/

    Anytime Okami has to go out (potty break, walk, etc.) she is on a leash. I dunno why, but I feel like, even if I do one day have a fenced yard, I just don't like the idea of just letting my dog(s) out and waiting for them to come back once they've done their business. Not that I have anything against those that do, I just personally love to leash up my dog and take her out every time she has to/wants to go out.

    Now, having a fenced in yard WOULD be nice so that Okami could go off leash. As it is, I don't trust her off leash (her prey drive is just too insane) so she never has complete freedom. She does do well on a retractable, and I'm trying to see about getting a really long 40ft nylon leash, so she can still run around in her Shiba 500 when she wants. But I suppose that, even if the yard were fenced, she would still not have that *almost* complete freedom of dogs who's owners have a ton of land for them to roam without getting into too much trouble on.

    I also don't believe in dog parks in my area, so unfortunately those are out of the question. Every now and then I do get lucky and the park is clear of people, so Okami does have a short time to run around like a nut for a while xP
  • WendyNCWendyNC
    Posts: 257
    I'm lazy, so I'm very glad for our physically fenced yard which is accessed directly from the door which leads to the covered porch running the length of the house. I'm rather grateful for the porch, too, when it's raining.
  • Being involved with two breeds that are known for their high prey drive, mischievousness, intelligence, and reputation for testing boundaries, strong warnings to NOT use invisible fences come up often. I've formed an opinion on this based on many detailed discussions in my other breed forum. If anyone's curious, I can direct you to the exact online archives.

    A few recurrent themes:
    * Shock-based training (which includes invisible fences) create aggression problems
    * Smart dogs DO know how to wear the battery down (definitely not an isolated anecdote to this forum or Shibas!)
    * Invisible fencing does nothing to keep intruders out, domesticated or wildlife. In the case of other people's children, that could very well turn into a liability, even if they come onto YOUR property.

    I know some people who advocate the use of invisible fences insist that it is a viable option when the dog is "properly" trained -- like shock collars. One issue with this is that the invisible fence is ultimately NOT like a shock collar because you can't control for random stimuli, i.e. errant prey, an aggressive dog that charges through the perimeter and causes your dog to forget their "training" in moments of panic, neighborhood jackasses who want to mess with your dog, etc.

    My bigger issue, however, is why choose a punishment-based option that involves physical pain when there are other options?

    So I've never tried an invisible fence, and have no intention of doing so. I don't think I need to have tried it to know that it's not something I would either choose or advocate.

    Here's a couple references I can add to the pool:

    Polsky, Richard. "Can Aggression in Dogs Be Elicited Through the Use of Electronic Pet Containment Systems?" Journal of Applied Animal Welfare Science 3.4 (2000).

    Short answer: "Yes." Abstract:
    Five cases are described that involve severe attacks on humans by dogs who were being trained or maintained on an electronic pet containment system. The system is designed to boundary train a dog through the use of electric shock in an escape-avoidance conditioning paradigm. Data were collected from legal documents filed in personal injury lawsuits. Analysis of the findings show that all dogs lacked a marked history of aggressive responding, all were adult males, and most were reproductively intact. All attacks happened near the boundary of the property. In every case, the system was operational at the time of attack. Moreover, in most cases, the dog received shock. Findings lend themselves to possible interpretation in terms of unconditioned aggression as a result of a dog having received electronic shock and avoidance-motivated aggression mediated through fear reduction toward human stimuli.


    I bolded the line about how the dogs did not have a previous aggressive history to highlight the unforeseen nature of these predicaments, not the dogs' reproductive status or sex. I have this article on .pdf -- if you want to read it, just PM me.

    Companion Animal Welfare Council (UK). "The Use of Electronic Pulse Training Aids (EPTAs) in Companion Animals." Online. http://www.cawc.org.uk/node/103. 10 September 2012.

    ** See specifically section .3.5.1 on "Boundary Fence Systems" (since they talk about shock collars and fencing)

    If you don't have time to go through the 92-page report, this blog entry summarizes it pretty well. "The report concludes that there is not enough scientific evidence to say whether shock collars are effective or not, but there is evidence that if mis-used they can cause harm." And again, I would say the potential for their misuse with unattended dogs contained in an electronic fence is pretty significant because you're deliberately creating a situation where your pet could be targeted by uncontrolled stimuli. That's not training. That's setting a dog up for the high risk of failure.
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    Bowdu 寶肚 (Shiba) and Bowpi 寶媲 (Basenji) with M.C.
    Post edited by curlytails at 2012-11-25 22:34:10
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    Bella used to be on a tie out it was a 60foot leash attatched to a 50 or 40foot leash onto a tie out..
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    I'm not totally against tie outs as they have certain uses, but I'd never leave Bella on one. She is a 53 to 55lb boxer and she could pull hard enough to break it if she really wanted to.

    The tie out was tough it wouldn't come out of the ground, but the leash maybe.

    I never left her unsupervised with it in case of coyote, badger, skunk or whatever..

    You name it my forest has it! Raccoons, quail, box turtles, fox, opossums, common snapping turtles and so on.

    Bella is much better off leash now.

    I do a lot of work and I make sure if the dog wanders off the property they come back.

    They know to stay off the neighborhood road and if they get close for whatever reason I recall them and they come.

    I don't let them roam into my neighbor's yard or even in my fields as I can't see them if they go there.

    "I am wondering something though - do people who let their dogs run around in an unfenced yard on this forum have neighbors? I can totally understand being in the country and having dogs run around free if there are no neighbors (to an extent), but I think it's completely inappropriate if you do have neighbors or people near you."

    I do have neighbors five to be exact they're spread out for good bit closest one is neighbor in front and the other neighbors are kinda separated by forest which helps provide a boundary.

    Sadly when I lived in town my three dogs in the past two boxer and catahoula mix. The two boxers had horrible experiences with off leash dogs when we lived in Louisiana a chow chow charged Pearly then a pitbull mix charged after Pearly luckily Junior chased the dog off.

    I was young and didn't know as much as I do now so we didn't do much in ways of socialization with other dogs just people.

    We moved to Indiana and oh my the neighborhood we lived in was horrible. Off leash dogs everywhere no owners in sight off at work or who knows where car was gone.

    One time a owner was out with his golden retriever it ran up to mine I calmly told him to recall your dog he said he's friendly! I said please do it now or else! My dogs are afraid of off leash dogs.

    I hate those types owners just because your dog is friendly doesn't mean mine is.

    Sad in town where leash laws are people don't care.

    I keep the dogs in the yard though I never leave unsupervised.

    "Saya greeting neighbor's lab/mastiff mix they love to call her a mastador.. Sigh."
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    "They named her Marley which is worse name for any lab brings bad omens! Haha she does remind me of Marley with way she is she likes to dig in the yard due to being on a tie out unsupervised and zero exercise.. I only see the dog walked three times.. Maybe it had more walks, but only time I seen her walked."
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    Marley is now a year old and she is way bigger then Bella and makes Saya look like a chihuahua dog with how big she is! I can't imagine walking her if she pulls. I dunno since I don't see her walked much.
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    Saya in the yard this is last year or something like that.
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    Checking out the shed where the garden is.
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    Saya checking the pond area
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    I called her and she came right away.
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    In the trails I walk on leash.

    In winter I go on walks in the woods for exercise much more fun then on trails. Some parts are steep.. We own the top part and some of the forest below..
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    A visit to the creek is fun.
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    Saya stalks the elusive leaf in the water.
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    Thanks for the comments.

    I enjoy being with my dogs and If I can't be outside with them I have the two come inside with me. It's too risky for my to leave them unattended even if the yard was fenced in all the way.

    Saya isn't upset over it she enjoys being inside too and hangs on the couch, or on the ground sunning herself in the sun and sometimes she'll come to me for some pets or we have fun game of play or do some training inside.

    I love taking my dog with me to the farmer's market, to shopping and so on if weather and temperature is good.

    Even though I have a big yard two fields plus some woods I still take the dogs to the park when able since it's different place and sights and sounds.

    I do enjoy the trails When Saya was a young dog I'd do two 2hour walks a day plus some time outside to explore on a long leash.

    She enjoyed it only downside is the ticks.

    I think a dog can be happy anywhere coarse one must take in account for your living space if you want a dog with a big requirement for exercise and mental stimulation then be sure to provide it or the dog will find it's own job..

    Same thing if your breed of choice is a barky maybe you should wait if you live in a apartment as the constant baying or barking might be an issue.

    I don't recommend shiba for off leash as it can only take one slip up to screw things up. Even breeds good for off leash shouldn't be allowed off leash in city as there is a lot of situations the dog needs to listen to you in and not cause issues.

    All it takes is a leaf blowing in the wind or bag blowing in wind in the street..

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    Nicole, 5year old Bella(Boxer), and 4year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • @ Saya: wow that lab is a cute chunky monkey.

    Would say...how we see and interpret the world as humans is quite different than our canine companions. Overall it is important to avoid making assumptions based on lackadaisical reasoning/justifications or spiffy marketers who are more than happy to sell their "invisible" products regardless of the long term consequences to our canines. There are just too many examples of the horrors of invisible fence training and behavior fall out for me personally to even consider it. I think it allows owners to be a bit too lazy about what their dog is up to. Electronics fail and if the product causes pain then why even go there, it's just counter productive in the long run. Especially in the relationship building part. We use a leash instead, it's the cheapest and safer solution in a pinch.

    @ Curly Tails - Great points.....Thanks for the info!

    --Pulled from previous threaded discussion....Door bolting is a training issue that can be managed with use of a crate and proper handling. It should have nothing to do with electronic yard containment or shock collars.

    --About electronic yard containment, one of the biggest issues I see is it DOES involve the use of a shock collar which most owners are under the assumption does no harm to their dog. At some point the system fails and it's that fall out can create life long havoc in the training dept. Most often the displacement behavior makes it very difficult to undo from a behaviorist aspect.

    In my opinion it's simply not worth the gamble if mistakes happen. Often by use of the product we as dog owners stack one behavioral problem right on top of another or trade one undesired response for another much bigger one, further complicating training or remediation.

    I am adding more info on the topic of "invisible" fences and shock containment systems:

    Yin, S. (2011) Are Shock Collars Painful or Just annoying to dogs? A 2004 Study Reveals some answers. Posted Jan 24, 2011 http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/are-electronic-shock-collars-painful-or-just-annoying-to-dogs-a-new-study-r

    Schilder, Mattthijs, and Vander Borg, Joanne. (October 2003). Training Dogs with Help of Shock Collars: Short and Long Term Behavior. Applied Animal Behavior Science 85 (2004). pp. 319-334. Retrieved from http://82.221.28.69/media/ljosmyndir/dyralif/Trainingdogswithshockcollar.pdf

    Abstract: Dutch Study on Short and Long Term Behavioral Effects of Shock Collar Training: Conclusion: That being trained can be stressful, that receiving shocks is a painful experience to dogs, and that the S-dogs evidently have learned that the presence of their owner (or his commands) announces reception of shocks, even outside of the normal training.

    Miller, P. (2003) Simply Shocking. Retrieved from
    http://www.peaceablepaws.com/

    Miller, P. (2006) Shock or Awe. Retrieved from
    http://www.peaceablepaws.com/


    Further Resources:

    http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/illusions-quotinvisiblequot-fencing

    http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/does-electric-fencing-condition-aggressionfear

    http://www.pacificanimal.org/Shock Collars - The Ugly Truth.pdf

    http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/invisible fences- the bad and the ugly.pdf

    http://www.canismajor.com/dog/fences1.html

    http://care.dogboston.com/invisible-fences-–-good-or-bad/
    Post edited by StaticNfuzz at 2012-11-26 11:38:08
  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 8456
    I have used an Invisible Fence. It was a horrible experience all around.

    When I brought Bella home, the house already had an invisible fence installed. My (at the time) in-laws had an invisible fence and it worked well for their dog (miniature schnauzer). At the time, I did not know anywhere near the amount that I do now about dog training and psychology.

    Therefore, I trained her on the Invisible Fence. It worked great with the cover on the collar, she would hear the beep, I would lure her away from the fence line and treat and praise. She figured it out really quickly. However, the trainer with Invisible Fence told us that after a week of covered training, we would have to intentionally shock her. I was not okay with that and when my ex purposefully dragged her to the line and got her shocked, I almost cried. Luckily, it only took once and she never tested the fence line. But then again, she was never left outside unattended based on the many reasons already in this thread (potential for bolting, lack of security from outside intruders (both human and animal), etc.).

    When Nola came along, she was impossible to train on the Invisible Fence. Her prey drive was entirely too great to even care about getting shocked. And her coat was so thick that she probably did not feel much of a shock anyway (which is good). However, I think the entire experience has caused her to be a bit more timid than she would have been without the collar. Luckily, a few weeks after chasing Nola through the woods, I moved into a house with a fenced in yard. THAT was the greatest decision I ever made.

    And at this time, we have moved twice more into houses with fenced yards. If it is at all possible, I will never live somewhere without a physical fence ever again. While my dogs get twice daily walks outside of the yard, they enjoy being able to lounge outside with me and run around without a leash and harness.

    That being said, we spend some time with my mum, who does not have a fenced yard. The pups enjoy more walks throughout the day and do not seem to mind not having a fenced yard for a few days at a time. They are always glad to get back home to their yard, though. :)

    Bella 2Mountains 2Nola 2
    Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia.
    I Wander, I Ride
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    As I continue to follow the chain, I should add that while I don't have a fence, if we just want to lounge around outside together a 30ft or longer leash works just fine for us. Even if we drop the leash while playing around on the golf course we can easily get Bear back to us with recall close enough to grab the leash and reel him in the rest of the way if needed.

    We are lucky though to have some really great dog park options, one especially is in a great neighborhood with really great people who frequent the park, so we do get off leash time together both during agility training and at the dog park to make up for not having off leash time at home.

    I enjoy the bonding we do without a fenced in area ... we walk together an hour or more every morning during the week before I go to work, my husband and Bear usually hang around together during the day and sometimes my husband has him out on his 30 ft leash when doing yard work, Bear and I train and play together inside in the evenings, sometimes we even go outside and do recall training on the golf course with the 30 ft leash. Weekends we go everywhere, the beach, the dog parks, the state parks, anything that is new and interesting for us to do.

    I only dream of a fenced in yard days/nights I am so tired I want to be lazy ... if that is why I want a fence, it is better I don't have one at all!
  • We had an invisible fence with Toby at first then he learned that if he rubbed his neck against the tree he could move the collar and would bolt through the bushes. It only took him about 6 months to learn to do that. With Nikita's high prey drive we knew a fence was the only option so she could run with the kids.

    We are not aloud a privacy fence or permanent fence because we are on a corner lot so we put up a t post fence. For some reason its considered temporary not sure why it is stronger than the chain link the neighbors had put up, there English Mastiff knocked it down with in 3 days of install then jumped on ours to play with Nikita and the t-post fencing was fine. I kept the Mastiff from wondering off again but glad we don't let them out unsupervised since I am not sure how well they would have got along if he would have knocked over the fence. If Toby had his choice he would be outside all the time but we only let him out if I am downstairs to keep an eye on him. The kids let Nikita out when they are downstairs since she is usually following them around and the kids usually go out with her unless it is raining (she will only sit on the porch then). The fence has helped over a long leash with the kids running around the yard so that no one gets tripped while Nikita is playing fetch.

    My mom doesn't have a fence so when we go there for the day we alternate who goes in the outdoor pen, who is on an extended leash or tie out (if we are swimming), or who is inside (I don't let them in very often because their are too many kids, around 8 of them, in and out all day unless they are with me and dragging a leash just in case). I don't put them both in the pen at the same time, even though the pen is the whole underside of the porch fenced in, we had an incident once when my moms dog ran up to the pen to play with Toby and Nikita started playing pretty ruff with Toby the positive was the pen door is 3 steps from the pool so the problem was solved quickly.

    Overall I would never use an invisible fence again. And it would depend on the dog on fence or no fence. Toby would have been fine with his bathroom walks and daily long walk but Nikita likes to run and play with the kids so a fence was better for her the walks were just not making her a tired as trying to play catch with 5 kids in a fenced yard. .
  • We have a 50 foot tie out attached to a tall wooden post (that was formerly part of a clothes line). We use the vinyl coated metal cords, not chains or ropes. This allows her tons of room to play fetch, follow us mowing the lawn, hang out during cook outs, romp through the snow, and even sit on the screened in porch with us on hot days. We never leave her out when we aren't home or aren't awake. Usually if we're not out with her its because she no longer wants to play fetch and instead naps in the sun, dismissing us to the house...

    She is not good off leash. She will bolt. Maybe when she is older we will be able to work on a better recall with her, but until then, its only the dog park for her is she wants to be off leash. My mother's two dogs have impeccable recalls. So when we go to visit her, we bring Kai's 20ft training lead and attach her to Mason, the 120lb Bull-mastiff. So when we call them, and he comes, she has not choice but to follow! This is nice for when we go to big open fields and such.

    We've had so many bad experiences with other people's off leash and ill-behaved dogs coming up to us when it is specifically stated as an on leash area... She's leash reactive and gets very scared when approached by other dogs while on her leash, and people just don't understand.

    I wish we could have a fence, but right now the money isn't available. And I just don't trust invisible fences. They short out, dogs bust through them, and like another member stated, dogs seem to come out of nowhere and ambush you. When a dog charges out from behind a house, stops 3 feet from the sidewalk and makes its best "Cujo" impression, you and your dog can't help but be traumatized. Besides, I've seen people not even put the collar on their dog and think that the memory is enough to keep the dog on the property... Sorry but most of the time, that dog ends up in my hands being brought back to their front door (I kid you not, it's happened 3 times).

    Besides Shibas have such a high pain tolerance that I doubt a little jolt would even deter them if their prey drive kicks in.

    Sorry for the rant!
  • CrystalWolfCrystalWolf
    Posts: 235
    I have a tiny side yard maybe .20 if that. I do have a zip line but my shiba riku does not go not his due to only having him 2 weeks and still potty training(no mistakes in the house though). I do put my pit on the zip line. But when she is done doing her business she just sits by the door or lays in the sun.

    I try to take riku and daisy on daily walks but now it's to hot for that and may attempt to at night if I'm. It to wore out from work. I was going to fence in what yard I do have but decided not to as I do plan to move to tn in the next yr or so.
    Post edited by CrystalWolf at 2013-05-21 11:13:08
  • JacksMom13JacksMom13
    Posts: 133
    Worst (and expensive) decision we made. we used it one time for training and we will never use or recommend it. we did it because the area we moved to was snooty about fences being put up. Now we are going to spend even more money (well worth it this time I hope) to put up a physical fence so that Jack can have freedom to play in his own yard without a leash/tie-out. suck it snooty neighbors.

    [edit] it's not our neighbor's fault they are snooty. this was all our fault for being so naive and ignorant. the training was so horrible and the trainer was such a jack-ass we should have known at that moment we made a mistake. but we waited a few weeks after Jack's trauma mostly trying to dissociate "pain" from going out in the yard and going over the driveway. we stupidly thought we would try again and train him though. 4 weeks after that training, the minute we showed him the leash/collar for the 2nd attempt on our own, he hid in the bedroom. I never even tried - obviously he remembered. by then it was too late to return the system. How dumb we were to think that training on pain and fear would ever work. it's never worked for us. I hate that fence (mostly I'm still mad at us for even thinking it was a solution.)
    Post edited by JacksMom13 at 2014-04-12 20:06:10
  • Good post! I'm sorry this happened (and I've heard other stories about this kind of thing), but good for you for realizing how bad it was and not continuing to use it.
  • poltergeistpoltergeist
    Posts: 426
    I am thinking of putting in a fence for a little 'dog run' (of course, I'll still be out supervising). But what is the best type of fence to get for a Shiba?
    I was showing my friend some clips of Shibas easily climbing over wired fences, etc. I'd like a secure fence.
    image
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4784
    I use 6 foot cedar with chicken wire and rock along the bottom
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
  • Jshaw1993Jshaw1993
    Posts: 25
    For those of you who have fences, what do you think is the best height? I see that lindsayt has 6ft and I was just curious as to what other people have.
  • If you're putting in a fence, I'd go for six foot, because that's pretty standard and will stop most dogs from climbing. If I could put in a new fence, that's what I'd go with.

    However, you might be able to get away with five foot depending on your Shiba. Is your Shiba a jumper or climber? Does s/he try to escape? If not, a five foot fence might work. However, think about the future too: will you get a bigger dog someday? What if you end up with a climbing Shiba sometime in the future? Since fences are expensive, it's best to go with the best you can afford, and 6 foot is better.

    I have a less than ideal fence, but I also have more a half acre yard which is wooded and hilly, and I can't afford to refence it now. It is stock wire fencing, and is 4-5 feet tall). It's not great for a lot of reasons: other dogs and animals can see in. We've had a terrible problem with wildlife getting in: coyotes, snakes, everything you can imagine, including, once, a bear. One of my Shibas, now passed on, got bitten very badly by coyotes when she stuck her head through the fence (and another time, same thing, by a stray dog). I don't like the fence I have at all, but it is common here and was here when I bought the place. This type of fencing is typical of this area because it is relatively inexpensive (in comparison, at least, to other types of fencing). None of my dogs try to escape, though, thankfully. I have a Shiba, a Kai Ken, and two Akitas.
    Post edited by shibamistress at 2014-04-14 14:13:26
  • Just a note that you may also have a combo jumper/climber. That's what my girl does. She will take a running start, leap onto the fence, and climb the rest of the way up and over. That's one reason why wooden fencing (though more expensive and with greater maintenance issues) can be a lot more reassuring.
  • Hi all,

    Hoping to revive this thread. Do any of you have experiences with wireless fences? Or even the wired kind? If so, can you please share your experiences? Specifically, the brand you tried and whether it was successful or not at deterring your dog from escaping or did they just ignore it?

    Some background: I have a backyard fully enclosed by a 6 foot wood fence. I am keenly aware that they are escape artists so she is not left free in the backyard (or in any part of my house) unless I am home. She is allowed to come and go to the backyard as long as I am on the main floor and able to monitor her. I will not be using the invisible fence as an actual fence, but more so as a safety in case she ever escapes.

    Any advice on what to purchase and if you think it would actually be effective at stopping her from running away if she did happen to escape would be appreciated.
  • spacedogsspacedogs
    Posts: 351
    I would say it's not worth it. There's more chance of it having a negative affect on your dog than actually being of use. If you're willing to dig up the perimeter of your yard to bury invisible fencing under your existing fencing you might as well just pour some concrete and bury some chicken wire so she can't dig under the fence (my brother had to do this for his very diggy lab).

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