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The Effect of Angulation on Working Ability in Shibas
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4785
    This is a reference thread for those interested in joint angulation in Shibas. I'm sure there are more experienced people/breeders out there who will read this and disagree with me, that's fine, they should jump in and contribute their thoughts.

    I like to work and trial my Shibas in addition to showing. The difference in conformation of my first Shiba, Beebe, whom I started learning performance sports with 5 years ago, compared to my breeder Shibas I later sought out is profound. I can see at this point how dogs with better angulation and better conformation are physically able to perform better, and this is why I selected a breeder who focuses on this when I was ready to find another Shiba to do sports with. And boy did I find a good one! Farrah and her kith and kin have been super to work with in the performance arena and their stamina, speed, and natural ability has impressed me.

    From the AKC Shiba standard:

    "Forequarters
    Shoulder blade and upper arm are moderately anuglated and approximately equal in length. Elbows are set close to the body and turn neither in nor out. Forelegs and feet are moderately spaced, straight, and parallel. Pasterns are slightly inclined. Removal of front dewclaws is optional. Feet are catlike with well-arched toes fitting tightly together. Pads are thick.

    Hindquarters
    The angulation of the hindquarters is moderate and in balance with the angulation of the forequarters. Hind legs are strong with a wide natural stance. The hock joint is strong, turning neither in nor out. Upper thighs are long and the second thighs short but well developed. No dewclaws. Feet as in forequarters."

    I like to point this out: the word "moderate" is used several times in this portion of the standard. The main thing to take away from this is that this breed should have moderate angulation. The second major point to note is that having an upper thigh longer than the second thigh, is basically a recipe for bad structure. The NIPPO standard basically calls for a dog with weak knees. LP is a huge issue in this breed. Less of an issue but still concerning is the tendency towards straight upright shoulders. Basically reach and drive are diminished when this happens, and a dogs' ability to cushion their own footsteps is reduced so the impact really hammers the joint.

    There are some really good books on evaluation of performance ability in puppies and effects of joint angulation on working dogs (Dog Steps), and noted expert in the area, Pat Hastings (the Puppy Puzzle), focuses on this topic in her writings and seminars. She actually made mention of this as it specifically pertained to Shibas at the 2011 National and it pleased me to learn that so many show breeders take this issue seriously. The jist is that dogs with poor angulation wear their joints down faster, and may not be as well suited to lots of repetitive motion or heavy impact as those breeds or individual dogs with sounder build.

    AKC breeders have focused heavily on breeding dogs that have passed health certifications and dogs with better angulated rears. Often NIPPO imports brought to the US fail these required health clearances and have such weak rears, they aren't able to compete well in AKC (although they may be stunning dogs in the front and would do very well in a NIPPO event). It boils down to selecting health over type and what a particular breeder wants to improve on at any given time.

    Does this mean that those of you here wanting to try some sport like jogging, biking, Agility or Flyball or Rally or Lure Course with your Shibas shouldn't even try? HECK NO!

    HECK NO.

    Just be smart about it, find something that suits your individual dog, and take some precautions knowing your Shibas just aren't going to be built the same way as a natural running or agility or harness breed is. ALL dogs and their owners can have fun doing these things.

    I personally have been scoffed at and told I was stupid by certain breeders for wanting to try scootering and lure and Flyball and so on. I know how that feels to be discouraged, and that's totally not what I am doing here. I'm explaining what wasn't explained to me in the beginning before I found a good breeder to work with. Beebe does all of these things, but she doesn't do them as quickly as my Shibas who are better builrt for it, and she does carry a (higher) risk of injury due to repetitive motion. But she does love doing this stuff so I give her the chance to.

    For those who don't know, Beebe has mild hip dysplasia and thyroid disease (which does weaken her ligaments). I got her pet insurance that covers injury and give her joint supplements and don't push her hard. I also took a conditioning class with her and learned to perform some stretches and warm ups and cool downs. I got xrays and blood work and tell her Vet that she competes and they give me advice on how to better protect her. She eats small rations to keep at a good working weight (26lbs, down from 33lbs pre-thryoid diagnosis). She still runs Flyball tournaments, but I'm just really careful, and now I look for low impact activities like scent work and Rally. I probably should not have allowed her to do Lure Coursing and have decided not to pursue it with her.

    *edit: The take home message for me about the effect poor angulation can have on a dog whom one intends to do some type of work with, is that the dog may wear down faster, it may be more susceptable to injury, it uses more energy to move itself around and it's resulting movement is not as efficient or clean for working.

    Here are some images you may find useful. The black and white image of Shibas pictured at the bottom have what I would consider to be very NIPPO type dogs and are not well angulated at all and I wouldn't be at all suprised if the dogs didn't throw bad knees or hocks. 2 bottom images and translations courtesy of TheWalrus on the NK side.

    I like this Shiba and I like his angles. It can be hard to tell from pictures. His great grand-daughter is well built :) :

    ManriGoRyuukyuuUruma

    This Shiba has good angulation and good reach and drive:

    ikeolympic3

    summerike

    Translations of the Japanese judging guides:

    shiba diagram

    NK_forehind

    NK_limb

    Here is a thread on the NK side discussing some of this:
    http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/comment/133443/#Comment_133443
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
    Post edited by lindsayt at 2012-10-18 04:38:29
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4785
    http://users.rcn.com/kschive/Fronts.html

    Shoulders should be moderately laid back, but not straight
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
    Post edited by lindsayt at 2012-10-17 06:53:02
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    Thanks for some information on this. I am new to Shiba's, Bear is my first. I didn't get him to be a show dog. Bear is not an AKC pup. The breeder, I believe, is probably a good breeder in regards to treatment and love of dogs (definitely not a puppy mill), but probably not one someone would go to looking for a high quality show pup either. The breeder did everything I expected when we discovered Bear had a heart murmur she hadn't told us about. She even extended his health warranty for 7 years on heart related issues and was willing to cover the exam costs if the issue turned out to be major. It turns out he has a very small hole in his heart between his ventricles that will not affect him. The specialist we saw in no way was concerned about it and said his activities never need to be restricted. Anyways, I wasn't meaning to talk about the breeder, but I had decided the Shiba traits fit our household perfectly and when I came across Bear online I knew I had to have him, so a week later and a 3.5 hr drive, I had my first Shiba. I do know Bear absolutely loves to jump and jump high. I also know he is a very speedy devil (and not in a straight line). He is already doing extremely well at agility class, so will continue to encourage him in the sport, but understanding what I need to think about in regards to the impact on his long term health is good. Tonight after work I will come home and stare at him trying to see his angulations with a novice eye.
  • curlytailscurlytails
    Posts: 2779
    Thanks, Lindsay -- I do find this very interesting, and definitely something to file in mind for the future. I don't do any "real" sports with my dogs (still have to make time to attempt lure coursing with the Basenji again), but we do keep an active lifestyle and I want them to be able to walk and climb and keep up.

    I often find myself trying to observe Bowdu's movements and figure out how his structure affects his abilities, and how this has changed over time and as he ages. I've come to appreciate that this is something to consider seriously when you look for a breeder who knows their stuff, even if you just want a good hiking partner. I know now that if I'm looking for a breeder dog, I not only want healthy puppies, but I would expect them to mature into structurally sound adults who are nicely built both by genetics and conditioning.

    Curious if you could give a basic assessment of any dog based on non-show pictures?

    So with Bowdu, for example, I have a sense that his legs are NOT "straight" and they do have some angulation (there's some forward lean in the first picture below) ... But I'm not sure if I'm looking at all the points correctly, and I'm not sure I understand how to differentiate between upper thigh and second thigh.

    Smush, 4-month-old Pyrennes puppyMarin Headlands - Coastal Trail

    Anyway, I feel like I see the advantage of angulation when I watch him climbing, in particular!

    PerchedGrip
    image
    Bowdu 寶肚 (Shiba) and Bowpi 寶媲 (Basenji) with M.C.
    Post edited by curlytails at 2012-10-17 15:20:57
  • JuniJuni
    Posts: 1268
    Thankyou Lindsay! I nearly understand it now.. I shall read it again tomorrow morning, too tired now as Juni insisted on a 2nd night walk because she forgot to poop and then it took 45 minutes on second walk to find a good place for it.
    I shall ask the breeders on the Swedish Shiba website their take on it, curious if they look at angulation in these terms.
  • AWE46M3AWE46M3
    Posts: 357
    This is a great, very informative, post! I'm curious about the narrow chested dogs. I believe my dog would fall into that category - are there any known health effects with narrow chested dogs been too physically active?
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4785
    @curlytails

    The upper thigh is the femur span from the hip to the knee, and the lower thigh is the fib/tibula from the knee to the point of the hock.

    Bowdu is a pretty nice looking guy IMO, and he seems about average for the breed as far as angulation.
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4785
    @AWE46M3

    The main reasons for dogs appear to be narrow chested is they lack maturity and muscle, or their skeleton is built that way. A term I have heard for very narrow chests in other breeds is "slab sided" or "slabby". Some breeds are almost this way on purpose, like coursing breeds (greyhounds, whippets) and some have deep chests to boot (dobermans, danes). They can have a huge problem with bloat if the chest is too narrow and very deep, and some difficulty fully expanding lungs during exercise (no spring of rib) if too narrow, like where their elbows are touching narrow. This would also effect stride and activity tolerance.
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
  • curlytailscurlytails
    Posts: 2779
    Bowdu would blush if he could that you think he is "pretty nice looking" and didn't say anything about his plumpiness. Hehe.

    Can you talk a little more about reach? I get that it's about creating beautiful, bold, sweeping movement, but is there something else about the dog's structure that good reach indicates?
    image
    Bowdu 寶肚 (Shiba) and Bowpi 寶媲 (Basenji) with M.C.
  • XabiXabi
    Posts: 432
    What a great resource! You're really a great asset to this forum.
    X & I signature smaller
  • AWE46M3AWE46M3
    Posts: 357
    I sometimes have a hard time telling if my dog has a narrow chest, but here are a few pics to show what I mean...

    image

    image

    image

    In general, he seems to be on the smaller (skinny anyway) side for a male. He's almost 2 and about 23lbs. He's very active and tends to have really good stamina at the dog parks. My wife and I have been thinking about doing some agility training with him or something like that since he loves being active.
    Post edited by AWE46M3 at 2012-10-18 22:29:19
  • EthosEthos
    Posts: 372
    Great information lindsayt.
    Iam not sure about Akuma's posture and angulation, what do you think? does he exaggerate it in the way he stands?

    Akuma

    Akuma's butt
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    I would be interested in what those with experience would say about Bear's angulation too. He was my first Shiba and I didn't go into this thinking about all these things, but you have to start learning somewhere how to look for these things. I tried to get the best standing pictures I could, which are not always easy as he likes to sit and look at me with the camera more than just stand.

    Photobucket

    Photobucket

    Photobucket

    Photobucket

  • tatonkatatonka
    Posts: 1210
    @redcattoo, Bear is a lovely dog! His angulation definitely seems less extreme than the examples posted above. Maybe that means he's better suited for level ground travel? @lindsayt would know best.

    To add to data in the thread, here's Tatonka. I don't really know how much he conforms.
    image
    image
    image
    Monkey!
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    @tatonka how beautiful he is!

    Then again I just love every Shiba picture I can find.

    I hope @lindsayt is willing to give us all a little assessment. I am a hands on learner so understanding what I am looking at when I look at these pictures will surely help me understand angulation better.

    I don't believe that physical characteristics means something can't be done, I have seen a lot of amazing people running triathlons and marathons that wouldn't fit the build, but I also know understanding physical build helps to properly monitor and adjust activities and training to keep activity enjoyable and healthy.
  • CaliaCalia
    Posts: 3664
    Just remember everyone who is or will be asking Lindsay about their own dog's angulation, she may or may not give an assessment that you may not agree with. I am not one to judge angulation, but this is more of a forewarning that if you ask a question expecting an answer, if that answer isn't something you want to hear then do not feel offended by it. This is someone that may be taking the extra time and effort to help educate us all about the desired structure of this wonderful breed, not a judgement against your specific dog. Even if your dog is stated to have poor angulation, that doesn't mean that anyone is degrading or insulting your dog , they are just giving an honest opinion about that dog's structure.
    image
  • tatonkatatonka
    Posts: 1210
    Ok I wasn't looking for feedback on Tatonka, just cataloging because a lot of threads on here are data catalogs for other Shiba owners. I agree with you, the discussion topic is more important than sparing our feelings about our dogs.

    Anyway Tatonka fits the textbook definition of a parasite, so I'm not sure I really have any feelings for him anyway.

    :)
    Monkey!
  • curlytailscurlytails
    Posts: 2779
    @tatonka, LOL, Well I can't imagine a cuter parasite. ;)

    Anyway, for me personally, I asked with the idea that this would be a good exercise in evaluating our own dogs with an honest, critical eye as judged against the breed standard. I've looked at a lot of Shibas, and know Bowdu is not standard so absolutely no feelings are hurt. =) But I don't fully understand the subtleties of what to look for, so I nudged Lindsay for her experience, knowing she's looked at a LOT more Shibas, standard and non-standard, with an eye towards form and function.

    I think part of the point is that even if your Shiba is non-standard, there are other activities that they may be better physically equipped to handle. It may not be the work or activities *you* were interested in or thought of first... but if the point is to do some work or activity with your dog, there are options. Not every dog is, or has to be built to handle more "typically" sanctioned dog sports like agility or lure coursing. One thing that @lindsayt and @sandrat888 and other forum members here have really demonstrated is that there are SO many interesting sports and activities that you could get involved with, if you'd like, but it helps if you can choose something that your dog is better built or conditioned to do.

    Dunno if that effectively hijacks the thread or puts words in the OP's mouth... but that's one lesson I took from this very educational thread.
    image
    Bowdu 寶肚 (Shiba) and Bowpi 寶媲 (Basenji) with M.C.
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    I also asked with the idea that this would be a good exercise in evaluating my own dog with an honest eye. Like curlytails, I don't fully understand the subtleties of what to look for, so I to wanted to nudge the experienced people, like Lindsay who has an understanding eye towards form and function.

    I have no expectations that Bear is of any standard (actually I am pretty sure he is not), but I know him the best, so knowing what a critical honest eye would say about him helps me understand what I am looking at when I look at him. The more I understand him the more I will begin to understand the breed and any future Shiba's I may chose to own. It also will help me understand what I may expect if we do continue down the agility route, which can only benefit Bear in a longer healthier life.

    Just like his black nose and above height stature of 17-18 inches, I don't consider these faults (even if a show ring would), I just consider it part of my beautiful boy who has reinforced in my heart why I fell in love and chose a Shiba as my first adult dog.

    I have no feelings other than to learn what I am seeing when I look at him, which is why I need an experienced person to teach me what I am seeing.

    I couldn't more agree with @curlytails whole comment above.
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4785
    Thank you @calia and @curlytails, those were excellent points to make for the few times we have threads like this. Everyone's Shibas are all beautiful pets and companions and it can be hard sometimes (even for me) to stay objective when our pets are put under the microscope a little bit. This is a lot of what goes on at dog shows and performance events and that can sure be hard for an owner! So, it's good to view it all as a learning experience and remember it is just one persons opinion (mine!) and there are more experienced and more knowledgable people out there.

    A story from this weekend seems fitting to relay here:

    I was at a Flyball tournament with Beebe and Farrah this weekend. Afterwards, we were all stiff and sore and hoarse and visited the wonderful chiropractor (certified for dogs and people!) who was on site. I learned a LOT about joints and motion and consequences of repetitive impact on the sporty canine body.

    Beebe was adjusted first (none of us had ever been adjusted by the way). He went over all the areas along her spine, hips, knees, legs and shoulders and neck. He isolated the painful areas (there were many sadly), and the worst were her hips, mid spine, neck and shoulders. He explained that what happens when one joint is inflamed or sore, the muscles and tendons lock up around it and that creates hypermobility in the joints before and after it so the body can maintain flexibility for survival. Then those structures begin to wear down.

    So, this has a cascade effect on the other joints and partly explains why she has developed a slight roach to her back and carries her pelvis at a slant with her rear legs well under her body instead of under her hips (that sounds weird but I will explain further down). In her case, Beebe has mild hip dysplasia. The muscles around her hips were very sore trying to hold her hips in place, so as a result it has thrown off her back and knees as they compensate.

    The heavy impact on her shoulders from hitting the Flyball box and jumping down has misaligned her neck and her shoulders were actually partially dysarticulated from the scapula sockets (this is very common for ALL dogs running sports to experience as the scapula and shoulder are free floating joints). Running a lot as she does in Flyball and the heavy frontal impact coupled with poorly conformed hips is wearing on her body.

    She found it a bit uncomfortable and it was strange to watch as her joints popped back into place, but I kid you not, the minute I set her on the ground she was all perked up and a different dog.

    Farrah's adjustment was noisey :) but aside from an impact related pelvic misalignment and some mild back soreness, hers was pretty routine for a dog that does agility and Flyball.

    I had never had an adjustment either and my lower back and hips were killing me. A few moments of excruciating pain later I was pain free! The Flyball handler has to do a lot of twisting, bending over, sprinting and lifting, and in Agility you're constantly twisting and sprinting. We all slept like champs. Anyways, it was a good experience and any performance dog and handler team should really think about doing routine adjustments.

    So, I understand about having a pet who isn't built really well but also wanting to allow her to enjoy life as much as possible and giving her these experiences she loves (Flyball). Learning how to do it safely is so important, so I will absolutely keep up her joint supplements, keep her fit and lean, do routine adjustments, and not push her hard to compete. If all she wants to do is scent work and obedience from now on, that's fine with me! I'm also going to buy some wrist splints for her at the recommendation of her Vet.

    I will hit on some of the things you guys asked about with your own dogs in the next post :)
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
  • JuniJuni
    Posts: 1268
    Out of curiousity I asked on the Swedish Shiba forum what people's ideas were and related to this discussion. The general idea among the breeders that have answered is that the Shiba is a sturdy, fit breed that benefits from exercise. Some were also talking about how necessary it is to build up muscles around joints to prevent injuries. Noone was suggesting that the angulation was a problem here.
    I found a survey that has been done five years ago about the health of Shibas in Sweden. I'm not sure how accurate it is, but there were 245 respondents which supposedly was 34 % of the dogs registered those particular years it was focusing on (dogs born between 1990-2004). Now I believe there are around1200 Shibas in the country, roughly.
    In the survey I could only find one dog that had problems with bad angulation. (There were also seven dogs with hip dysplasia and another seven with luxating patellas, which should be 3% of the dogs in the survey.)
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4785
    Thanks for that. It sounds like your Swedish shibas have good things going for them and it's great that breeders are tracking it. I do want to point out that there aren't many Shibas in Sweden as there are in the states, and there is an enormous population (thousands and thousands) of Shibas in the US coming from puppy farms and pet stores (which I think you have mentioned is not a problem in Sweden). I would argue that the Scandanavian Shibas still share the breeds tendency for straighter legs and shoulders even if people don't want to self report about it specifically.
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4785
    @AWE46M3
    It's a bit narrow but not horrible. It looks like he elbows in a little and toes out and his chest isn't very deep. If his chest were deeper, I bet it would push his elbows out a bit more. You may be surprised at how he has filled out once he hits 4 or 5 years old. Sometimes the extra weight as they age helps spread the rib cage a bit and drops it a little more. I wonder how he moves (gaits)...and he has a very cute expression. I think he would like to do agility.

    @ethos
    His rear looks pretty straight, but he stretches out nicely (he stands like a little show dog!)

    @redcattoo
    He is very narrow in the front. His rear is quite straight. Do you see how he tucks his rear legs under his pelvis and has a roach (rounding) to his back? It makes me suspect that there may be something going on with his hips where it wouldn't hurt to put him on a joint supplement and have the vet go over (range of motion, check for clicks and slippage in knees and hips) at annual visits. You may consider a baseline hip X-ray at some point.

    @tatonka

    I love his Jack Rabbit rear legs :) He isn't standing really great in the photos so I won't speculate. He doesn't look extreme at all. He's cute! He is probably very good at jumping.
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    @lindsayt, thanks for taking time to look at the photos of Bear and provide your insight. I did wonder if he was narrow in the front and had wondered about the fact he seems to stand with his hind legs right under him. He has always appeared very leggy to me and very large compared to many Shiba's we have met recently. I know he is above standard in height and weight, standing 17-18 inches at the withers (from my poor in home attempts to measure) and he weighs 30 lbs even though he doesn't seem to be an over-eater. His father that we met was a very similar build too.

    I have a vet visit I need to schedule for routine exam, so I will be sure to ask my vet about his insights on Bear's range of motion and costs for some baseline x-rays. I really appreciate your experienced eye giving me your thoughts on what you see from the photos I took. I want to be sure as I learn about the breed and about agility that I do not push too hard or do anything in my excitement which creates risks and long term consequences I wasn't aware of.
  • EthosEthos
    Posts: 372
    Thanks for the info lindsayt. :)
  • BootzBootz
    Posts: 3495
    Should do evaluations in exchange for donations to the forum!!! ;)

    Nice thread btw. Now I have to go compare this to Bootz!
  • AWE46M3AWE46M3
    Posts: 357
    lindsay - thanks for your comments, much appreciated! My dog's narrow chest is something that I noticed a while ago and I think I may have even posted here about it but didn't get much info. My concern isn't so much that my dog isn't the perfect specimen of a Shiba, but more about what sort of "issue" may possibly present themselves down the road. As with most things we're passionate about, I just like to read and learn as much as possible. Being able to relate what I have read to my own dog is very helpful in terms of being able to spot certain things.

    I'll have to dig through my pics to see if I have anything of him recently in motion. Not sure if you can tell much from this pic, but this is probably the best "side view" I have of him, he prefers to be photographed from the front... haha He's still, ever-so-slightly, at an angle in this pic:

    image
    Post edited by AWE46M3 at 2012-10-23 02:13:52
  • MikoMiko
    Posts: 225
    Miko is not breed standard being that he is 17" at the withers and weighing 27lbs, but im still interested on how he conforms based on angulation. Also to add some more reference pictures:

    Photobucket

    took his gear off for a better shot:
    Photobucket

    for chest depth:
    Photobucket

    Photobucket

    I do have one concern, do you see how his back paws turn slightly outward when he's standng, do you have an idea of what that would mean? I see in the diagram you posted that the hock joint should neither face in or out.
    Post edited by Miko at 2012-10-23 10:58:48
  • redcattooredcattoo
    Posts: 1960
    I just want to say, thanks to everyone sharing their photos and thoughts on this chain and keeping it a positive learning tool for those of us trying to understand what we are looking at in regards to angulation.

    @Miko, thanks for sharing your photos, especially since it sounds like height and weight Miko is very similar to Bear, but so different in hind leg position when standing. It really helped me see a comparable difference.

    Also by everyone sharing photos I am learning to see the differences in posture between Shiba's. Boy, Bear (my Shiba), really does stand very different with his hind legs than many of the photos here. Bear seems to always has his hind legs more under him when I catch him standing.

    Hopefully, the insights from this chain will help me have an intelligent discussion with my vet Friday on what concerns I need to keep an eye on as he grows older and we begin to become more active with short morning runs and agility training.
  • MikoMiko
    Posts: 225
    your welcome @redcattoo they do look about the same size, but definately different standing positions. This is a great thread for us to learn from.
  • tatonkatatonka
    Posts: 1210
    @lindsayt said: "He's cute! He is probably very good at jumping."

    Humping? He's very good at humping, yes.

    And thanks for your note. Your contributions are very helpful to all the wonderful Shiba owners here..
    Monkey!

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