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Half fox half Wolf
  • EthosEthos
    Posts: 372
    What do you think? closer to a Fox or a Wolf? or a mix of both?

    Shiba Inu Wild genes

    How domisticating a wild animal carries morphologic changes along with the behavioral changes:


    Post edited by Ethos at 2012-10-12 11:10:04
  • AvehAveh
    Posts: 110
    Folf or Wox?
  • kumaDUDEkumaDUDE
    Posts: 1259
    Never seen a shiba that looked like that lol
    Looks so cool, sesames are nice looking dogs
    Post edited by kumaDUDE at 2012-10-12 00:17:04
  • LosechLosech
    Posts: 2516
    If I were to pick a wild canid, I'd say Dingo or Singer. Neither wolf nor fox looks closer to a Shiba than those two. Or maybe, to throw people for a loop... Looks like a dog.
  • @Losech. Yeah, exactly! I don't think a Shiba looks like either wolf or fox.
  • For that Shiba picture, more wolf but for our puppy, she looks almost like the fox in color, face and fur 0.0
  • sunyatasunyata
    Posts: 8574
    LMAO... I never really get the resemblance to either... A Shiba looks like a dog.

    The people that say 'OMG, it looks like a fox!' have usually never seen a fox in real life and I immediately group those people in the 'knows absolutely nothing about canines' category.
    Bella 2Mountains 2Nola 2
    Casey, with Bella and Nola, hanging out in the mountains of Virginia.
    I Wander, I Ride
  • EthosEthos
    Posts: 372
    Most shibas I've seen in real life dont have the wild look. But some I saw online do have some wildness in the shape of their faces ears and eyes.
    For me, i think they have a unique look and the fact that it's not a common breed in the USA people think of a wolf or fox when they see them.
  • tatonkatatonka
    Posts: 1210
    I think they look like little grinning old men.
    Monkey!
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    I agree with Losech. I've met New guinea singing dogs in person and Saya met two too and they're much more shiba size well a bit taller then Saya and longer and looks lean and athletic..

    I've seen some dingo pups that remind me of shiba singer pups kinda look like shiba too, but coarse both singers and dingo are different in looks from shiba, but they're closest wild canine I see resemblance to shiba.

    I hate it when people say Saya looks like a wolf dog.. How in heck does she look like an wolf dog no wonder huskies get put down or put into sanctuary because shelter staff can't educate themselves what a wolf dog looks like..

    I've seen shiba with those markings a widows peak is what I think people call it.

    Why do people even think shiba look like fox their tail is too short for one thing and fox tail's don't curl. lol
    Photobucket
    Nicole, 5year old Bella(Boxer), and 4year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • tatonkatatonka
    Posts: 1210
    @Saya, a Shiba puts their tail down like a fox on many occasions (like sleeping).

    As for Shiba vs. fox, i think you guys are in denial if you don't see some striking similarities:
    image
    image
    Monkey!
    Post edited by tatonka at 2012-10-12 11:04:47
  • EthosEthos
    Posts: 372
    Also shiba Inu is an ancient breed. Not much changes happened since the old days. They are very close genetically to their wolf ancestors.

    I attached a very interesting video in the 1st post showing how evolution works when you domesticate a wild animal. The foxes start looking like dogs!
    Post edited by Ethos at 2012-10-12 11:11:53
  • ArcticArctic
    Posts: 513
    I don't get why some people get defensive when it's said Shibas look like foxes. I mean, you can't deny there are resemblances!
  • INU RYUUINU RYUU
    Posts: 1507
    Looks a little like a Shikoku Ken
    犬竜
  • MacMac
    Posts: 61
    I can see how most people can say that. Being a twin i learned at an early age people go off a few basic points to make an ID. They don't look for details. Its how people mistake someone for another. Right height build and hair from behind must be that person. Same with shibas. Right color and size so at a glance they think fox.

    Im still puzzled how my black and tan was called a little fox though....
  • What I think is hilarious is when people tell me Kiba looks like a lion cub. Haha.
  • Well, there are some resemblances, but to me less rather than more. A fox is much longer than a Shiba. Their tales are very different--longer and fluffier (never mind the lack of the curl). Their faces are much pointier. Not to mention their eyes, which don't look like dog eyes at all. I have fun pretending they look foxes sometimes, but having seen plenty of foxes, I don't think the resemblance is really very close at all.

    Now the Singers are another story entirely. They DO look like Shibas or vice versa.

    I think my favorite comment here is Tatonka's "they look like grinning old men"! Ha! Everyone called Toby and "old man dog" when he was 8 weeks old! And he did seem like an old man, but a grumpy old man who would yell "get off of my lawn!" rather than a grinning one!

    And here's a Singer pic, a link because even though I use the right code, I can NEVER get pics to embed on this forum:

    http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fil:New_Guinea_Singing_Dog_on_trail.jpg
    Post edited by shibamistress at 2012-10-12 15:12:56
  • EthosEthos
    Posts: 372
    According to the experiment in that video the wild physiologic and morphologic traits are lost gradually when u domisticate a fox or a wolf. They start to get the doggy look slowly after generations of selective breeding.
  • kumaDUDEkumaDUDE
    Posts: 1259
    I've had a couple of people ask if Kuma was a basenji and some asked if he were a dingo... And I will never forget "it's a chihuahua with a lot of hair"

    But I still don't see fox, I see their legs look it, the bushy tail, their triangular ears, and that's about it. If you put a fox and a shiba side by side I'm sure you can tell the difference in an instant.
  • TriggerTrigger
    Posts: 72
    @shibamistress, I agree with you. I saw at least 15 different foxes back in the days when I was still in Europe and I cannot see the resemblances. Plus, foxes look so wild that they can be scary : when they put their head down (looks like a hunting position) and look at you (I was only 8 years old but, I never moved because my father told me that if I was in front of one "just stay calm don't look at him he won't jump on you, he will just stare at you a little bit and walk away" thank God it was true each time for me but... I never got back in the woods alone ahah).
    We do have an expression in France : if something or someone looks like another focus yourself on the differences not the resemblances (and this is what the law use to combat counterfeiting)
    People in Las Vegas sometimes ask me if Trigger is a coyote or another wild dog (I don't remember which one though but I've seen one in death valley) there is some resemblances but not when you are near the dog you can see that Trigger is a dog but... at least they ask, other just walk away and they look like so afraid... I don't get it! But the worse thing ever was this LA girl who asked me if Trigger was a ........ BOBCAT like seriously you're a freaking Doctor and too stupid to make de difference between a dog and a BOBCAT?? worse thing ever!
  • InoushiInoushi
    Posts: 555
    I think shiba's have a very feral look, and because of that people generalize them to wild canines they are familiar with. That, and I think its the way shibas move. kenshin likes to lower his head in the typical wolf pose, and he moves at more of a lope, his tracks always look more linear (in the snow, all of his paw prints line up in a perfect line), compared to most dogs.

    When I look at shibas, I can see some wolfy traits, from the slanted eyes, the muzzle's proportion to the rest of the skull, the small thickly furred ears, the black skin pigment on lips, nose, and around the eyes, the black nails, the fact that many of their hairs are banded and not a solid color, even the way ujario is desired, the tufts along the cheek, the very thick rough, thick lower neck, compared to upper neck, and even a lot of the proportions (especially when you see shibas bred with less direction, they tend to get the very leggy look in proportion to their body). I mean there are of course a lot of things that are not similar (size and tail set being the key issues). Having done a lot of studying on wolves, I could never confuse them, but a shiba (especially a sesame) running full tilt from a distance, in the right part of the world, could be mistaken for such.

    I don't get mad at people for thinking it, because honestly, not everyone is educated on wolves (especially when you take into account the way a typical Hollywood wolf is portrayed). Even the fox mistake isn't that crazy if your used to the cute cuddly story book version (the eyes personally make it impossible to be confusing but most people don't even know they can contract that way). lol I actually think its more weird to say they don't even share a resemblance because they do, being proto-dogs and all, I mean they are more primitive than most dogs, so your mind drags you to what they look most similar to. I mean unless they look more similar to a type of dog (dingos, and singers, are also more wolf-like, plus if your pointing to them, that means there aren't many domestic dogs to point to that people are familiar with, which means they look closer to the wolf).
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    I'm not in denial I can have my opinions too on what a shiba most resembles..

    Like you think shiba resemble fox I feel they resemble dingo or singer more..

    Here's pics of black fox Devon the fox at wolf park in battle ground is black one too.
    http://natalielennartsson.blogspot.com/2012/05/black-fox.html

    Here's from Saya and me meeting New guinea singing dogs. The man was transporting couple to zoo or one I know he was taking one of the males to the zoo. One Saya liked most was Rusty.
    Photobucket

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    Photobucket

    Photobucket
    This female singer really loved my mom.
    Photobucket

    Here's some pics of dingo there was one gallery which was very beautiful full of dingo, but the person took pictures off. :\
    http://a-z-animals.com/animals/dingo/

    Dingo pups..
    Dingo Pups

    Click here to getImages &
    Dingo Pups Pictures - Pictures
    A singer at a zoo nearby me
    Photobucket

    Saya loves climbing up trees here's cell phone of her tail down to me she looks more like a singer then fox.
    Photobucket
    Trail down she puts her tail down Only when nervous, scared or relaxed or eating something good. She was eating a lamb rib.. yummy.
    Photobucket

    Saya does have a wild look to her this picture is good one that shows it I guess..
    Photobucket

    Saya yodels a lot which is one reason I think shiba inu are more like singers since Singers will make a long howl though Saya just yodels not same as what a singer does very neat and you'd know it if you hear it. The zoo singers sometimes sings.
    Photobucket
    Photobucket

    Arooo!
    Photobucket

    Saya's tail isn't very long, but even shiba with really curly tails don't make me think fox..

    Singer's tails are sickle type not curly Saya's tail isn't really a sickled it's a light curl, but not cinnabon kind.. it goes between sickle or light curl depends on her moods.

    I think people are entitled to their opinion sorry if you don't like it. I'm fine with people thinking shiba have foxy looks, but to me I prefer dingo looks in my assessment. hehe

    Sadly most people can't even say shiba inu they say shiba emu? lol

    I had two people say shiba emu when I told what breed Saya is.
    My thought looks like this. lol
    Photobucket

    @tatonka "a Shiba puts their tail down like a fox on many occasions (like sleeping)."

    I never said shiba inu never put their tails down like a fox.

    This what I had wrote
    "Why do people even think shiba look like fox their tail is too short for one thing and fox tail's don't curl."
    Example this see how long the tail is? and the tail is more straight and neutral most time I see Saya's tail down it's either all the way down like the picture I posted or slightly down with a slight curl or kink in it? I dunno.
    image

    Picture Source: wili
    and Animal Photos!

    I do agree to a normal person a shiba looks like a fox, but they still don't look like one..

    Some dingo pictures to me looks like big versions of shiba inu.

    Singers have bit different in looks and smaller then dingo I believe I never met dingo in person before so can't compare.

    Dingo and singers are even in B&T coloring though it's much rarer in singers. The guy I met with singers has one he didn't bring her as he had full van bringing the ones to the zoos. Maybe I'll meet him again and he'll have her.
    http://www.nams.ca/MagiBlog//wp-content/uploads/2010/06/2010.06.11-black-dingo-Cunyu-.jpg

    This topic has been discussed a lot on this forum..

    Saya been called a mini husky, mini malamute, baby husky or baby malamute, midget husky once.. lol

    She's been called a coydog, wolf dog and once a wolf!? I think some are just joking or just commenting how wolfy or wild she looks.

    One lady I asked if she was for real on the coydog thing and she said yeah I really thought she was a coyote husky mix..

    Wow some people are silly.

    She has been mistaken for a cat once. lol

    I've seen shiba like that in OP pic I think people called it a widows peak..
    Photobucket
    Nicole, 5year old Bella(Boxer), and 4year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • jelliesjellies
    Posts: 142
    Looks _like_ a husky/dingo/fox -- I understand that people are pattern matching machines and even dog lovers don't study all the rare breeds, I don't judge them for making the comparison. Brownie points for anyone who then says "I guess you get that a lot" rather than imagining they are stating something startling the owner may not have realized.

    However, "is that a fox/dingo?" I'm less understanding of because it is so unlikely how can they look at the variety of dogs around and think someone is taking a domesticated fox for a walk. Sometimes I just say "yes".
  • CinderCinder
    Posts: 55
    I had someone tell me my shiba looked 'like something you'd see hanging out of a tree' LOL! I laughed for about 10 minutes because I guess she kinda does look like some kind of small marsupial or something (she's only a puppy)

    The other comments have been equally mixed between dingo, fox, lion cub and wolf
  • tatonkatatonka
    Posts: 1210
    Tatonka and I take a lot of night walks and one time this person was coming up some stairs with a bike and starting screaming:

    OMFG IT'S A GIANT RAT.
    Oh wait no guys it's just a dog. Ha ha

    o_O
    Monkey!
  • DebDeb
    Posts: 286
    Fox or Wolf? I would have to pick more like a fox looks, but that's mostly the red and general size and head shape. The black and tans, not so much. Mine have been mistaken many times by adults and children for foxes. The kids probably haven't ever seen a fox and kids have great imaginations, so no problem. The adults I figure bumped their heads and just aren't thinking right. It seems silly to me, like oh yeah, I keep foxes in my house, drive around with them in my car and take them to work with me, yeah, right.....play fetch with them and all of that. Potty walk them and pick up fox poo.....Who do they think I am, Dr. Doo-little???? Most reasonable people who don't know the breed just ask what kind of dog they are, in my experience. I can't tell you how many times I've written Shiba Inu on a scrap of paper for people to get the name straight so they can go home and look the breed up on the internet.
    Post edited by Deb at 2012-10-15 00:17:01
  • ShibaLoveShibaLove
    Posts: 554
    I get how someone unfamiliar with the breed could say a red and cream looks like a fox, but i have seen a fox and do not think they look very much alike. Anyways, you all do know that there are domesticated foxes that people keep as pets, right? I guess it is not too far off to think someone could have a fox knowing that. There is actually a lady that strolls her fox right into the petsmart near my place and has the same name as my foster that I brought in there (Todd)! Too weird.
  • DebDeb
    Posts: 286
    Ummm, not in my state. Wild animals cannot legally be kept as pets without a big bunch of paper work and mostly not even then unless the person is running a wildlife rehab. AND, that's not easy to start up either. Then, making a pet out of an injured wild animal isn't the point of a rehab. I think there are about three wild rehabs in the whole state. There was a real stink here about keeping ferrets when they first became popular pets everywhere else, because the state maintained they were wild animals and considered difficult to immunize against rabies. That all wasn't so, but it still took a while for laws to change about keeping ferrets. You can't even legally keep Koi here! Forget about foxes, skunks and raccoons!

    Back to the discussion, picking between a fox and a wolf, a shiba more resembles a fox to me. Kind of how a moose resembles a horse, kinda sorta, but not really.... but more than a cow resembles a horse. Are they really alike? No, not really. Yes, I've seen foxes and would never mistake a shiba for a fox, but un-doggy people do all the time. Doggy people know a dog when they see one, even if they don't know the exact breed.

    So, I have to know, is Todd Fox a red fox or a silver? Is there a high incidence of rabies in your state? There is in mine and I'm pretty convinced that is the reason for the legal restrictions on wild mammals being kept as pets. But there are stringent regulations on keeping game birds here, too.
    Post edited by Deb at 2012-10-15 22:52:11
  • ShibaLoveShibaLove
    Posts: 554
    I never really thought about the different state laws so I was just glancing through some. They vary a lot and it is strange what you can own without a license (elephants, wolves, lions) in some states. Texas does not allow "dangerous wild animals" (edit* without a permit) and they do not consider a fox one of these. Anyways, Texas does not have near the incidence rate of rabies as New England and the East coast in general but it does appear to be higher than the rest of the country.
    Post edited by ShibaLove at 2012-10-15 22:58:44
  • KimuraKimura
    Posts: 191
    Interesting discussion... Most people I've met say that Kimura looks like a little fox (which I find is truest when they are puppies as she is). The difference gets more pronounced in adulthood IMO. But nobody has ever thought she actually was a fox. I also get wolf and husky. But I see the resemblance and I see why people would say that at first glance when seeing a red shiba.
    What's funny is how it is interpretation, because, Deb gives the example of the moose looking like a horse and my first instinct would have been to say that a moose looks like a cow more than like a horse! I guess it has features of both and definitely is neither :D
    The comment can get old, but it doesn't bother me and I see people's point. Ad as far as my own opinion, I'd say red shibas look to me a little closer to the fox and sesames and B&Ts a little more like wolves, and creams probably like arctic foxes, or malamutes ;)
    Post edited by Kimura at 2012-11-13 09:27:36
  • BarrowBarrow
    Posts: 69
    One thing we have many of are arctic crossfox.....brown/tan in the summer and white in the winter. Here is one eating on the remains of a seal....


    Photobucket
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    Love Arctic fox they're my favorite kind.
    Photobucket
    Nicole, 5year old Bella(Boxer), and 4year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • Kira_KiraKira_Kira
    Posts: 2482
    Hmmm...

    image
    Cynthia, Proudly owned by Kira
    imageimage
    Kira the Cream Shiba Inu 吉良 - Facebook Page
    Follow Kira on Instagram! Kira_the_cream_shiba_inu
    Kira's Life Story & Photo Thread - Chronicles of Kira

    “Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole.”
  • poltergeistpoltergeist
    Posts: 426
    I think Endo looks more like a Dingo. My Australian friend agrees. Though everyone here compares Endo to a fox or a Laika.

    image

    image
  • SayaSaya
    Posts: 6678
    Dingo pups. :3

    http://www.zooborns.com/zooborns/2012/03/fort-wayne-childrens-zoos-dingoes-are-growing-up-fast.html
    Photobucket
    Nicole, 5year old Bella(Boxer), and 4year old Saya(Shiba inu)
  • AntoinetteAntoinette
    Posts: 887
    @Ethos. I read that the Shiba Inu is the closest genetically to the Japanese wolf of the six ancient Japnese dog breeds. I think the Shiba's temperment shows this. In any event, I think Shibas are gorgeous dogs and the most intelligent. I am so very proud to be a Shiba Mom to my furry angel Quake!!
  • Funny this thread was bumped and I saw this article

    http://io9.com/why-so-many-domesticated-mammals-have-floppy-ears-1606672446

  • poltergeistpoltergeist
    Posts: 426
    @Saya yes, those are def. Shibas :D

    image
  • Kobe1468Kobe1468
    Posts: 1587
    http://www.nihonken.org/forum/index.php?p=/discussion/3890/i-give-up-yes-she-is-a-wolffoxcoyote-/p1

    Found this via google from the NK side. Excellent thread with some hilarious posts/pics!
    "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened."
  • koyukikoyuki
    Posts: 1244
    there is a very close likeness between the appearance of Dingo here in Australia and Shibas- even the b&t dingo look similar in their way, but mostly the reds.
    Koyuki - red female
    Takeo- cream male
    Kenji- black and tan male
    Suma- sesame female
    Haruki-brindle Japanese Akita Inu
  • Kobe1468Kobe1468
    Posts: 1587
    Fur

    Typical dingo colouration
    Fur of an adult dingo is short and soft, bushy on the tail, and varies in thickness and length depending on the climate. The fur colour is mostly sandy to reddish brown, but can include tan patterns and sometimes be black, light brown, or white. Completely black dingoes might have been more prevalent in Australia in the past, but have only been rarely sighted in recent times. They are now more common in Asia.[12]

    Most dingoes are at least bi-coloured, with small, white markings on the chest, muzzle, tag, legs and paws being the most common feature. Pure Dingoes are also found in white or cream (not Albinism) they are also found in Black & Tan colourations. In the case of reddish individuals, there can be small, distinctive, dark stripes on the shoulders.[6]

    ^from the Wikipedia site.

    I'm going to do my best to make it to the Fort Wayne zoo during my trip to Wolf Park...would love to see those beauties!
    "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened."
  • koyukikoyuki
    Posts: 1244
    https://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbid=10152746829812400&set=a.10150996698652400.408691.61056502399&type=1&theater
    This is a link to a pic from a facebook group 'Australian Dingo Foundation', check out their pics- even i have glanced at them and often thought it was a Shiba lol
    Koyuki - red female
    Takeo- cream male
    Kenji- black and tan male
    Suma- sesame female
    Haruki-brindle Japanese Akita Inu
  • poltergeistpoltergeist
    Posts: 426
    last night I phoned my mom to let her know that my Maine Coon kitten was born on Tuesday. Long story short, I told my mom to Google image search 'maine coon'. What my mom saw was various tigers/leopards and not just a big cat. In fact, all of the people here see my new cat as some sorta gigantic lynx and it will swallow-whole all my current pets.
    I suppose it's not just Shibas then :)
    I still get people asking Endo if he's a Laika, http://www.easypetmd.com/sites/default/files/Karelo Finnish Laika (4)_0.jpg
    image
  • RooneyRooney
    Posts: 142
    My friend's 3 year old met Rooney and immediately said "Swiper! No Swiping!" She's obviously a Dora fan. So I guess you could say that her opinion is that Rooney most resembles a fox (even if it is a cartoon one). Hahaha
    Allison, Rooney's Mom
  • Shibas most likely descended from the Honshu wolf, a small descendent of the grey wolf, which was barely over a foot tall at the shoulder - about the same size as a Shiba.

    Unfortunately the Honshu wolves went extinct around 1900, but there are some taxidermy specimens and illustrations:
    image
    image
    image
    image

    The Honshu wolves look very fox-like to me and I can definitely see how Shibas could've descended from them... what do you guys think?
  • On the topic of wolf-dogs, I found something really cool:
    http://realwolfdogs.tumblr.com/roughguidetowolfdogcontent

    @WillGraham I can see what you're saying. It has a long face/snout.

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