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Daycare Woes
  • Kobe1468Kobe1468
    Posts: 1587
    This has been a very interesting and informative thread! Kobe has always played very well with the neighbors Labs and my friends Sibe. On the other hand he doesn't get along well with my bro in laws Shih Tzu. I've been looking into a few different daycare options for Kobe...looks like I better start again and ask some serious questions!! Thanks for opening my eyes a bit more!! @Rikka, good luck in finding a new daycare!! Hope it all works out for you!!
    "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened."
  • RikkaRikka
    Posts: 1501
    @Kobe1468 - Thank you so much! It is interesting to say to least. I've owned dogs in the past, and while my previous dog -- a Corgi -- isn't the best to compare to a Shiba, he got along fairly well with any size or breed, so it was extremely easy to mingle with everyone. It seems Sagan is a mixed bag, honestly. :-/ Some days are awesome, and some not so much (as far as play mates go either at dog parks or with my friend's dogs).
    image
    Lauren, living with a 4 y/o Shiba named after a scientist. ☆
  • Kobe1468Kobe1468
    Posts: 1587
    @Rikka, I agree, very interesting!! My Siberian went to daycare for several years and actually got along better with the smaller dogs!! He didn't like aggressive play. I guess every dog is different, as my friends Siberian just loves Kobe and Kobe's extremely aggressive play! While I'm sure it must be difficult for the daycare to match dogs with one another, it is their job, and I can't believe they weren't able to handle Sagan better. Let us know how it goes!!
    "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened."
  • tatonkatatonka
    Posts: 1210
    Rikka, maybe you can post a video of the roughest you see Sagan play for some comment..
    Monkey!
  • littlebearlittlebear
    Posts: 144
    @kenzoLA When I first took Kuma to camp I was concerned about him being with the big dogs, still am just due to size difference. The owners told me that they would be more concerned about a fight if he was with dogs his size. Said that they would not tolerate him as well as big dogs. Kuma smiles and sometimes snaps, not toward the other dog, but just to let them know not to get in him space. He used to do this when he would first arrive then be just fine. I don't think he is smiling at the other dogs as much as he used to. The owners spent quite a bit of one on one time with him to see where he would best fit. There are two other shibas there, but they are in with dogs more their size due to their personality. I will say Kuma has grown up with my daughters chihuahua mix and she takes things from him and leg sweeps him. He is really good with her, but we would never leave them alone due to their size difference.
  • RikkaRikka
    Posts: 1501
    @tatonka - Got some videos. We went to Marymoor Park today. :3

    Near the river: http://youtu.be/OYqRdootEXU
    Playing with a Boxer: http://youtu.be/fFVbfXJSPus

    He did come across a really young puppy and was nipping its' neck (him playing) but because it was young -- too young to be there, imo (guessing it was between 12 and 16 weeks old) -- it started yelping and crying, which lead to Sagan being more riled. I don't think it really understood my dog's motives of play and mistook it for something else? I had to grab him by the collar and sit with him. The owners of the puppy didn't say anything and kept walking. o_o
    image
    Lauren, living with a 4 y/o Shiba named after a scientist. ☆
  • tatonkatatonka
    Posts: 1210
    Example "rough" play. Ignore Big Bang Theory playing in the background.

    Monkey!
    Post edited by tatonka at 2013-03-03 22:10:29
  • tatonkatatonka
    Posts: 1210
    Rikka I think there's almost no play in your video to comment :P
    Monkey!
  • RikkaRikka
    Posts: 1501
    Haha, I know. D: I clearly need to whip out my phone faster.
    image
    Lauren, living with a 4 y/o Shiba named after a scientist. ☆
  • RikkaRikka
    Posts: 1501
    Bumping this for an infuriating story.

    So, my boyfriend and I went to Portland this previous weekend, and we boarded Sagan at the daycare he's been frequenting the past month or so. We like the place, the owners, and there are other Shibas who stay there, so they're at least knowledgeable of how rough they can be. We picked up Sagan on Sunday morning and he clearly had fun, except the owner told us that "he was kinda picking on a Great Dane puppy, but suspected the puppy liked it." Nothing else. We left.

    This afternoon, my boyfriend receives a call from his daycare. Basically, to sum it up, the owners of the Great Dane puppy found a wound on his stomach that was infected -- guess who they blame? Sagan. The owner's wife is saying that we're liable for paying for the puppy's vet visit, and if it's anything serious, we also have to pay for the medication and/or surgery if it requires it. My boyfriend tells them that they do not have proof, therefore we're not paying for it.

    It boggles my mind because:

    a) Sagan has never bit another dog in his life
    b) As far as I know, dog bites do not become infected, and they're not "dime-sized"
    c) They called us FIVE DAYS AFTER we picked up Sagan to tell us this
    d) The owner never told us that Sagan bit anyone when we picked him up on Sunday morning; you'd think BITING ANOTHER DOG would cause a scene and therefore would tell us

    The owners of the Great Dane puppy went to the vet after the phone call and they're going to see if we're liable or not. We haven't received a phone call yet and the daycare closes in 30 minutes. My guess is that their vet is telling them the same thing: the wound on his stomach is not a fucking dog bite.

    Time to find another daycare!
    image
    Lauren, living with a 4 y/o Shiba named after a scientist. ☆
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4786
    You are NOT liable. Doesn't your daycare have a waiver? Many dog event centers have waivers, and its also common sense: if you intentionally bring your animals around other animals in off leash settings, it is reasonable to suppose that an injury coul happen, and you acknowledge that by participating, so owners waive their right to complain. If reasonable safety precautions were taken, then you can basically tell them "tough nuts, take it to court." It would be different if he was a dangerous dog and mauled the puppy out of nowhere, but animals have teeth and they use them when they play, and its a risk of participating in dog daycares. Those people are RIDICULOUS!
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
  • Kobe1468Kobe1468
    Posts: 1587
    Oh wow!! Yes, I'd be pissed off too!! Doesn't the daycare have a waiver you sign? The daycare we've been taking Kobe to made us sign one, not only protecting them, but also the other owners(and ourselves) from any liability should something like what you described ever happen.

    Waiting five days is very irresponsible and really brings their credibility into question. Not to mention nobody at the daycare witnessed anything out of the ordinary. Very odd indeed!!

    I hope everything works out for you guys! You've been having some pretty crappy luck with daycares.... Hope you can finly find a responsible one with no BS!!

    Good luck!!!!
    "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened."
  • GrayJJGrayJJ
    Posts: 67
    That's crazy, especially FIVE days after you picked him up. The dog could have encountered anything between that time. If there was a general concern on pick-up, they should have said so.

    I'm still having trouble finding a daycare I can trust would understand the Shiba play. They are rough with mouthing but don't bite to kill/lock on.
  • shibamistressshibamistress
    Posts: 5171
    I don't think you should have to pay unless they can prove it was Sagan, and more to the point, as others noted, I think there must be a waiver at the daycare...

    That said, dog bites become infected all the time. and that can be very dangerous, which is why it is critical to have a dog treated after a fight if there as a bite, even if it looks like it's not that bad, and only a minor puncture. They can also pull skin away from muscle so drains are needed. That's why I always take the dogs in after a scuffle if I see bites, even if they look relatively minor.
  • @rikka - so the daycare thinks you're liable or did they give the info to the great dane owners? Sorry to ask, it just sounded like the daycare itself didn't blame you but did act as a sort of liaison to the other owners, in which case I'd be more inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt. It sounds more like the other owners rather than the daycare are the jerks but that's based on my interpretation of your post.

    Edited to add: sorry that you're having such terrible luck finding a good daycare.
    Post edited by violet_in_seville at 2013-05-03 15:04:24
  • jennjenn
    Posts: 856
    @Rikka ugh, so sorry to hear about that! I would be so irritated at both the daycare and the GD puppy owners for being so irresponsible! A lot can happen in 5 days that you shouldn't have to be responsible for!

    I know we're in the same area, would you mind PM-ing me the name of the daycare? We have Rigby in one in Seattle that we are liking, but we were thinking about an alternate that does overnight/later pick up. I'd also be happy to share the name of the one we're using, we've been happy with them so far :)
    Jenn, Shiba Slave to Rigby / http://hellorigby.com
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4786
    @jenn

    I think his breeder does boarding :)
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
  • jennjenn
    Posts: 856
    @lindsayt yeah, she's always my first choice for extended stays, I'm just kind of a planner and like to have a back up plan just in case. :P Both of us work in downtown Seattle though so she's a little out of the way for us on a daily basis.
    Jenn, Shiba Slave to Rigby / http://hellorigby.com
    Post edited by jenn at 2013-05-03 19:45:06
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4786
    That is a bit of a drive.

    @jenn

    My breeder is in Redmond and does boarding and daycare. Another option for you :)
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
  • Kobe1468Kobe1468
    Posts: 1587
    Don't want to turn attention away from Rikkas troubles, but just a quick bit of cool...

    So I dropped Kobe off at daycare this AM, and as I was turning to leave, in came a absolutely gorgeous B&T!!!! If you can believe it, she was the first Shiba I've ever met outside my breeders Shibas!! A very very few in my area!!

    Anyhow, Kobe got to play with his first Shiba (besides his litter mates) today!! At pick up, the staff said they did very well together! Really made my weekend!!!
    "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened."
  • RikkaRikka
    Posts: 1501
    @lindsayt - I'm actually going to email Leslie about kenneling/boarding for the future. Would she accept Shibas that are not from her?

    @Kobe1468 - That's awesome!

    Also, not a single phone call from them apologizing. I'm definitely moving on from this joint. :-\
    image
    Lauren, living with a 4 y/o Shiba named after a scientist. ☆
    Post edited by Rikka at 2013-05-04 01:23:13
  • lindsaytlindsayt
    Posts: 4786
    She does :)
    "Common sense isn't so common"
    photo c5d87957-61b6-48af-a440-4187cbfc861b_zps88ccdf88.jpg
  • @rikka - seriously? I was willing to cut them some slack, but that really isn't right. At the very least, you should get an explanation and an apology.

    @lindsayt - I'm so jealous of all of you!
    Post edited by violet_in_seville at 2013-05-04 13:55:07
  • ArcticArctic
    Posts: 513
    Sansa has had some weird experiences at day care/playgroup lately, and I don’t know how to make sense of them. Specifically, he has “flunked out” of both for being dog reactive at them. Sansa is 13 months old, and I have done all the typical socialization recommended for her: puppy class, meeting as many people and dogs as possible a la Ian Dunbar, regular dog park visits (probably three times a week, only in the little dog area). She loves her dog park visits. She’s never had any problems with any dogs, although, of course, she tends to play rough as Shibas do and there has been an incident when one owner didn’t like Sansa playing with her dog as a result. But there was no aggression from either dog, just typical play). She loves our dog park visits, and she’ll try to play with any dog that shows the requisite amount of energy and enthusiasm, and gets along fine with those that don’t play. On walks she wants to meet every single dog we see on the streets, and during obedience class that we have been going to when we walk in she immediately wants to start playing.

    Anyway, about two months ago I tried to bring her to daycare at the new training facility we’ve been going to (amazing place, with all positive reinforcement APDT trainers) and they called me a couple of hours later saying she wasn’t feeling it. She was baring her teeth at dogs who came near her and just sitting in the corner by herself where she eventually fell asleep. I could tell she didn’t like it because when they brought her out to me when I left work to pick her up, she came running down the hall at me and was so happy to see me: airplane ears, tail wag, licking my face, the whole nine, which is NOT how she usually greets me. I mentioned to the trainer that it was so weird to me since she loves dogs usually, and she said maybe because I wasn’t around she didn’t feel comfortable.

    Yesterday a playgroup started where dogs play and one works on reading their body language as well as refocusing them and having them listen to commands midplay. The trainer had encouraged me to bring Sansa, especially since I’ve told her how social and playful she normally is. Well we get there, and 2 minutes into it as soon as we take the dogs off their leashes, Sansa gets mobbed by some dogs and she growls at them and bares her teeth and that was that. No more play group. I feel bad because I think it’s something she would have enjoyed, but I can’t figure out why at this particular place, which she seems to love otherwise, she gets nasty with other dogs. Does anyone have any thoughts? At the dog park (which seems like a much more volatile environment if you ask me) she is the picture of zen: she has had dogs barking six inches away from her face for minutes at a time, been mobbed by dogs, been nipped at and she’s always kept her cool. Even during our obedience training there is a Bernese that constantly gets away from his trainer and rushes up to Sansa and aggressively engages her in play, and she’s cool as a cucumber. But each time she’s been let loose off leash there, she gets scared to the point of being nasty. Any ideas why? Has anyone else experienced this?
  • tatonkatatonka
    Posts: 1210
    I just stare at complainers in the dog park while Tatonka is totally destroying their dog. At the very least, if they're going to be ignorant of dog play, they should expend the effort of picking up their dog and going somewhere else.

    I've watched Tatonka play enough to know he doesn't bite (hard!) so I doubt a liability issue will ever come up.

    @Arctic, it's very dog-specific how the dog will behave when going in and coming out of daycare. Tatonka barely knows I exist when he arrives and wants to go in immediately. When it's time for him to go home he shoots out the door and is all over me with airplane ears. However, unlike what you describe he does get a lot of playtime in there, so the fact that your dog may not seem like she's enjoying it might point to somebody in staff doing the wrong thing, or an aggressive dog, or something else.

    Really it sounds a lot like Sansa being in King's Landing. :P
    Monkey!
  • ArcticArctic
    Posts: 513
    LOL @tatonka, yeah, I explain to people that this is how dogs play. They're dogs. They play fight and wrestle and chase. What else do you want them to do? Play chase? It's one of my pet peeves, overprotective dog owners when it comes to play.

    As for the daycare/playgroup issues, I trust the staff implicitly, and the fact that she was also scared/uncomfortable enough to bare teeth during the playgroup when I was there within the first minute makes me question if it's the setting...I don't know, I'm not really sure. It's just so strange to me that only in that location does she become anti-social, whereas on the street or the dog park or when meeting acquaintances'/friends' dogs she's loving life.

    It's not the biggest deal (Sansa not liking daycare saves me money, if nothing else!) but it is frustrating that she seems to dislike these enrichment activities but is great in every other setting.
  • DianaBostonDianaBoston
    Posts: 254
    @Arctic .... Is the playgroup at the daycare an indoor facility? Do you think there is a difference of Sansa being "outside" vs. "inside". I know Dakota at first loves everyone in the dog park, then after awhile, she has had "enough" and we know it is time to take our leave. Maybe leaving Sansa all day somewhere is tougher because you can't just 'leave" with her when she has had enough. Where Dakota goes once a week to playgroup, the human leader watches her and after Dakota has had enough with the other dogs, she just removes her to another part of the house where she is content to just be on her own. Last week we tried to take Dakota to our favorite park. She went over to a mound of grass and just sat the whole time gazing like the queen of Shiba. If anyone approached she'd give a little lip curl and then be totally bored. We eventually just left because we could -- I don't know what to say. We do everything right and by the book and still sometimes have to live with not the best of behavior. However, there are many folks on the forum who don't even try the dog park or play groups -- for many reasons I am sure. But we all want our "kids" to have fun and be social. Some days it works beautifully and others not so much.
  • littlebearlittlebear
    Posts: 144
    I am curious about this also. My Kuma has been going to camp since he was 7 months old. He also does obedience school. He is very reserved and is not fond of anything new, so needs all the socialization he can get. He plays with the big dogs at camp because the owners said he always smiles (shows his teeth) when he first goes in and then he is fine. When he goes, he can't wait to get inside. He is always excited to see me when I pick him up, but he will also greet me then want to go back to play unless he is really tired. We also have boarded Kuma there with no problem that I am aware of. We have never taken him to a dogpark, for one, due to his smiling. My daughter has two husky pups and when she visits, the female always goes crazy trying to lick Kuma's face and for lack of a better description, trying to put her head in his mouth. He gets upset with her, growls and shows teeth but never has taken it to a bad level. Is the smiling a Shiba thing or is that that Kuma just doesn't want anyone in his face? Now Kuma has had knee surgery and has been out of everything for 3 months and probably for at least another 2 or 3 months. I am concerned that re-entering camp and school after such a long time might be an issue.
  • shibamistressshibamistress
    Posts: 5171
    I personally think her reaction being "mobbed" by other dogs was entirely appropriate, and except for my Kai Ken, all of my dogs would have done the same (he wouldn't have liked it, but he reacts differently). So, that's one thing.

    But I wonder, too, if the difference isn't indoors vs. outdoors (if it happened indoors). My Kai really doesn't enjoy large groups of dogs he doesn't know, but he tolerates outdoor play groups (and probably, actually, would be fine at a dog park if I took him, though I don't think he'd enjoy it). But he freezes up completely when the same thing happens indoors. I think he just doesn't feel he has enough space to get away. It pretty much ruined an otherwise good obedience class for him--he was fine with the class part but the play sessions were agony for him and he froze up and couldn't seem to recover from them. The big difference was indoors vs. outdoors.

    my feeling is, though, that it's the rare NK that really enjoys being around a bunch of other strange dogs in this way, and actually, that's something I like about the breed, so if they don't like group play, they don't like it.

    eta: and re: Kuma's "smiling." (Which my husband calls "making faces") It's not really smiling. He's snarling--that's just his way of doing it. And it's a warning to leave him alone. So yes, he's doing it because he doesn't like the other dog in his face. Most other dogs, esp. NKs, don't like that at all. My Akita will not tolerate at puppies at all because he hates that in your face licking thing, and puppies don't know enough to back away when he shows his teeth.
    Post edited by shibamistress at 2013-07-12 14:07:31
  • ArcticArctic
    Posts: 513
    @shibamistress, I think you may be correct in the indoors versus outdoors dichotomy. My trainer also suggested the same thing, and it's really the only variable I can really think of, although of course anything is possible.

    She's been "mobbed" before by dogs at the dog park (it's a separate little dog area, although she loves big dogs since they play rough with her) and she's always kept her cool. She's had aggressive little Dachshunds in her face six inches away barking and she hasn't batted an eyelash. Any dog she doesn't care to play with she just ignores, whether or not they're ignoring her. In our class, she always tries to play with the other dogs in the beginning. A Bernese puppy (that's probably 70 pounds at least) always gets loose from his own during class, and he has run into Sansa several times trying to engage her in play mid-class (I mean really charging at her) and she's just side-stepped him and completely ignored him.

    But then the leash comes off, and she's suddenly afraid and anti-social even though it's a controlled environment. Whereas at the dog park we go to at least three times a week she's cool as a cucumber even though the park environment is the Wild West compared with the play group. It's a bit frustrating that we won't be attending play group, but really I'm just a bit baffled as to the differences in behavior.
  • jennjenn
    Posts: 856
    We've also had a hard time getting Rigby comfortable at indoor play areas. He snarled at a shiba at one of the shiba puppy meetups because he got up in his face, and the other dog did not like that and ended up attacking him. I was very lucky that he went back to daycare without a problem the following week. He has a class at an indoor facility and was also pretty unsure at first there as well, I wonder if its just an overwhelming experience with the smells and nowhere to retreat to.

    He's currently at an indoor/outdoor daycare facility which he likes a lot. He love playing with the big dogs and is fine going inside and outside - but he also dislikes being mobbed. He likes a few seconds to sniff and he will bark to let the others know he needs some space when he first gets there. Luckily we haven't had any problems, and I hope he doesn't grow to have issues beyond that with other dogs and his space.
    Jenn, Shiba Slave to Rigby / http://hellorigby.com
  • zandramezandrame
    Posts: 1106
    @Arctic, do you always go to the same dog park? Are the same dogs always there? The difference may just be that the new daycare place is new and she's out of her element. Also if she didn't enjoy that first day there she will remember that.

    Kouda also hates when strange dogs get up in his face and will snark.

    We left Kouda with our trainer for a weekend, and when she let him explore the backyard by himself he found a broom leaning in a corner and lay down underneath it. Like a feral animal hiding. She then let one of her dogs (who Kouda loves) out to greet him and he realized it was fine. She reported that Kouda was fine after that and even played well with new dogs.
    Post edited by zandrame at 2013-07-12 17:59:33
  • @arctic - when she goes to the dog park, does she get mobbed right away as soon as she's offleash or a little later? When you take her into the facility does she get to walk around a bit first, or do you head straight to the play group?
  • Kobe1468Kobe1468
    Posts: 1587
    Great post regarding whether daycare is the right option for your dog, and things to look for in a good daycare...

    http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/theotherendoftheleash/doggy-day-care-fun-for-fido-or-not
    "Until one has loved an animal, a part of one's soul remains unawakened."

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