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"shiba training" Let's stop to laugh at that oxymoron for a minute....
Haruko has a couple issues that we have not found a way to resolve. First is her insistence on hanging at the end of the leash. When I say hanging I mean it literally. In a plain collar she pulls and pulls to the point of gagging and then continues doing it for another hour. To hell with treats, squeaky toys, and humans calling her to come play. She is going that way as fast as possible even when that speed is zero or negative because the person on the other end has stopped or switched directions. She will also choke herself while just leaning over the car seat and you can hear her raspy breathing the whole trip. She has no issue with cutting off her own air supply.
So we got a padded tracking harness to use on hikes. This doesn't really address the issue and while it stops her from choking herself she just goes to the end of the leash and pushes with so much force her front feet leave the ground. Mildly amusing until she's still doing 2 miles later.
I don't think a prong or choke collar would do a thing. Pain or loss of air flow does not phase her. I'm wondering about head collars? Then we could turn her rather than just dragging her the direction we want her to go. I"m hoping it would also make it easier to stop her when she decides she's going to go jump on that random person hiking the other direction with muddy paws. A good idea? Any suggestions what type? I definitely want to attach it to her collar. Her harness now has to be attached to her collar because she figured out how to flip backward and roll around until it comes off.
Problem 2 is biting or more chewing on people. Her idea of greeting, playing, and just plain being annoying is to chew on hands, clothes, feet, and whatever else she can reach. Not hard but annoying. We've tried many techniques and my friend who breeds akitas tried to help. I've held her nose shut and held her down until she's screaming only to have her immediately bite me in play when I let go. We've tried ignoring her or leaving when she does it but she just chews on something else or our akita until we return. We've tried to distract her and get her to sit with toys, treats, and so on but first you have to always have something available and second it only lasts as long as the food or toys do. I spent 3 hours every day for the past week working on making her sit and not jump and chew on me or the door before I'd open it to let her out. It seems more of a fluke or boredom that makes her stop long enough for me to praise her and get out the door.
So how do you get across to an indestructible shiba who doesn't care about pain or threats and has the attention span of a bug (no offense to bugs) when it comes to distractions like treats and toys to stop using humans as chew toys? Currently the only mildly effective way to deal with anything is for me to stare her down for about 10 mins and then she'll walk off only to repeat the offense an hour later. It still works longer than anything else.
In puppy Kindergarten the trainer addressed leash pulling by just being more stubborn than the dog. He said you can just stand there and not move anywhere while she's pulling. When she finally lets there be slack on the leash, reward her with a treat, and then keep walking. If she pulls again stop. Sounds like that good be an extremely boring and futile process in your case but with persistence it might eventually work. He mentioned somebody that used to go to the driveway and not make it any farther for a very long time but eventually the dog learned. Also maybe practice with a shorter leash that forces her to stay by your side.
As for the biting, have you tried the squirt bottle? A squirt in the face or the butt along with a firm "no" or a rough kind of "bahhh (growl type noise", will let her know she's doing something wrong.
Haru is nearing 2 years old. Squirt bottles are great fine. Water streams need to be attacked and killed. Any type of threatening noise = play which has gotten her beat up at the dog park. Really anything equals play. Even if the game leads to shiba screaming.
The not moving has not worked with any dog I've had but especially not nihon ken. My akita will just stand at the end of the leash and stare in the direction she wants to go for 30 mins or more before sitting down at the end and continuing to wait. The second you move it's back to the end of the leash. I did get her to the point she can go off leash in many areas but only because she is so attached to me that getting to do something with me is it's own reward. The shiba on the other hand seems not to notice a human exists. You could tie the leash to a tree (happens quite frequently around here with chickens to take care of) and she'll behave the same. Pull and pull and pull for about 5-10mins. Lose interest in that direction. Pull and pull and pull in random directions for another 10 mins. Then begin digging a hole. When there is nothing else to do always try to dig a hole. Even if standing on concrete, gravel, or the landscaping around the house. At that point everything else is tuned out until you drag her away from the hole where she goes back to trying to run whatever random direction she's chosen. On hikes there are so many interesting things that you could probably stand there all day while she bounces around at the end of the leash trying to attack things and forgetting there's a person on the other end.
what about trying a gentle leader type collar and leash for the pulling. I know people that have used them on their dogs and it has worked wonders with the pulling. it goes around their muzzle and then when they pull it turns their head sideways which they dont like. Doesnt take long for them to realize its easier not to pull. it doesnt hurt them at all hence the name gentle leader. Ive seen them at places like Petsmart.
Might I suggest some formal training or consult with a behaviorist? 2 y/o and no indication of changing beahvior, I would probably start to consider one of those two options.You can call me K (human) Her name is Stella (Shiba)
I think this is kind of like ski school. When I went skiing, other people I knew could ski, but they didn't know how to teach it. Just because I taught my dog to sit by the door before going out doesn't mean it will be the same for you...I'd go to some sort of formal training if I were you, just to move things along more quickly, if nothing else.
I've been taking dogs to classes since I was 8 so 17 years now. Haru has been through puppy class and a set of obedience classes. I was hoping people who have nihon ken and especially shibas could have more insight and suggestions than your basic obedience class and instructor that doesn't know the specifics of such dogs.
The gentle leader is what I was asking about. There are 4 or 5 versions of head collars for dogs. I saw a few threads on here where people have used one type or another but I have not used them and only seen one applied once to a large dog being handled by a teenager at dog classes. I don't know anyone who knows the full application or differences between them. I've always worked my akita off a skijoring harness because after having grown up handling 1000lb horses I have no issue stopping and turning 80lbs of dog even from it's shoulders and these days I forget a leash half the time since my akita no longer needs it for obedience or agility classes. Haru though is not the least bit interested in working with a person and so far no bribes or games have changed that opinion and no punishment makes an impression.
oh wow! Stella is my first NK/Shiba. We are actually in 2 types of puppy classes. One at petsmart and another is a puppy STAR class. I'm sure other more expierenced members can probably suggest more.You can call me K (human) Her name is Stella (Shiba)
Maybe your reinforcing the behavior in some way? What do you do most of the time when the behavior happens? Are you always completely consistent with your reactions? If your Shiba thinks they can get away with something, they will do it. I cannot say how much my pup will stop something as soon as I tell him to, and then go right back to doing it again when he thinks I'm not paying attention. For example, my pup will pull on the leash when we are close to home. He does this because even though I may slow down and not let him go, he will still get the reward of going home. If you think like this, it may help you. From your example your Akita, I can tell you she pulls because it means she can get off the leash. These dogs are all about the rewards and getting their way. You have to find a way to get in the way of the reward and not budge on the matter. Since she nips, you may want to approach her with a something to chew every time she sees you. This way your not doing the hard work of stopping the behavior but redirecting it. The moment she nips you, remove everything, including yourself and your other dog from the area. Repeat the process through out the day. If you do get her to stop, you may have to have her practice with others as well so she can generalize the behavior. Also keep in mind shiba can be a little mouthy, especially with other dogs. This is why its hard to get them to stop after it has formed into such an ingrained habit. You are going to have to work with her for a long time, and since none of us can actually see the situation, an expert (behaviorist) coming over to your home will probably be your best course of action, so they can point out things you may be missing.Ariel (me), Zora (parent's/family Rottweiler), Haru (my ferret), Kenshin (my "first" dog, Shiba Inu)
Well, I'd suggest a positive trainer, and/or behavioralist, but I don't know that you'll like that given that many of your techniques are aversive and punishment based. Frankly, I'm appalled that pain or threats are even mentioned in terms of dog training.
My Shibas don't do anything they don't want to do, and I think punishment and aversives are a bad idea in general, but really bad for NKs, and can ruin your entire relationship with them. It certainly won't get them to do anything they don't want to do. It's particularly bad with biting, I think, and Ariel's point about redirecting is a good one.
Regarding the head collars--I've never used one on my Shibas, but I used one on my GSD and on a Chow cross I had. They worked well on both dogs--the GSD esp. I tried to put one on my male Shiba once and he went ballistic and that was the only time he ever bit me for real (ie. not mouthing). He was 9 weeks old. I didn't try it again--I found that I could walk him ok in a harness.My life revolves around two Shibas and an American Akita puppy
For a dog that pulls like that, I would most definitely try a gentle leader or easy walk harness.
The head collars work very much like a horse halter. Some dogs are not really all that keen on them, as they do go around their muzzle. But they are generally very effective at curbing pulling if the dog can tolerate it.
An easy walk harness is a harness that hooks in the front. This way, if the dog pulls, he or she is just turned around. Pretty effective at teaching them that pulling gets them no where and this type of harness is generally more tolerable to dogs.
You will also want to bring along VERY high valued treats. Treats that are not used for anything other than walking. String cheese, freeze dried liver, hot dog slices, something smelly and delicious (to your dog). When the pup walks without putting tension on the leash, PRAISE and TREAT. When the pup attempts to pull, stop. Do not yell, do not turn around, just stop. When the pup stops pulling, continue on, PRAISE and TREAT as long as he or she continues to walk with slack in the leash.
It can be frustrating. You will not get anywhere on your walks for a few days/weeks/months. But in the end, persistence, routine, and consistency will get you where you need to go.Casey with Bella (shiba) and Nola (shiba) hanging out in the mountains of Virginia.
Our Shiba pup had a crazy biting habit, and we have 3 little kids, so it was not a good situation. What has worked wonders for us is having several empty soda cans filled with a handfull of rocks or coins and taped shut at the top. We put the cans around the living area, and if Mochi gets crazy and starts to bite, we give her 1 warning ("No Bite!") then someone shakes a can once. It makes a very loud sound, and she stops immediately whatever she is doing. We try not to let her see who is shaking the can, so she doesn't associate the noise with the person. We had to bait her into biting on us a few times at first, (playing excitedly), and then use the can shake. After she stops, I try to put out my hand and say "Kisses" for her to lick me instead of biting. Then she gets lots of praise. She is a changed dog now. We have seen a huge decrease in the biting.
As for the leash, we just got her a Sporn harness, which has been great for walks.
I mention punishment reactions because we've been doing the rewards for the past 2 years with no change and it's hard to reward when the undesireable behavior never stops long enough. Most of the time she doesn't care about a reward. She's got toys everywhere to chew on and redirect her to but she doesn't care. We buy new toys weekly to find something that will hold her attention more than chewing on people and objects that are not dog toys. We've been through all the treats that worked with my akita, all the ones that didn't, and all the ones that everyone else uses at dog class. Half the time she won't even take a treat. Games are not interesting, toys are not interesting, treats are not interesting... killing things is interesting but aside from the fact it is not something good to reinforce I'd run out of chickens quick if we tried it and chewing on people is interesting. The only things that are rewarding to her are the things I don't want her to keep doing.
Noisy cans and such would send my akita cowering and hiding but Haru tries to eat fireworks. Most of the things people suggest as deterrents would probably come closer to being good reward for her. lol Maybe we should just start shooting her with squirt guns and throwing cans full of rocks at her on the odd occasions she isn't chewing on or trying to drag someone.....
This sounds really frustrating, and it doesn't sound like you're new to dogs or other animals. She sounds like she's a tough one to break...
it sounds and seems weird, but if she LIKES the quirt gun or other things that are traditionally aversive, why not make those things the "game" and "reward" part of training? If she likes getting squirted in the face, that sounds like a fine enough reward for me?
I do think she's getting some sort of reward for doing all these crazy behaviors. It's fun and satisfying for her on some level, whether you meant it to be or not. It sounds pretty typical for a puppy who lacks focus, but not for a 2-year old. I would definitely consider using tools like the head collar to assist in the walking. There are also harnesses that you can clip at the front of their chest so if they pull they just whip themselves around in a circle.
Is she ever calm? Does she lay around the house doing nothing? Or wait patiently for her dinner? Or sit and watch you while you work? You can start clicker training her by "marking" these very simple good behaviors and then move on to UNtraining her from her bad ones. Sounds like you have a very long road ahead of you, and that she is going to throw a tantrum every step of the way. The only other hope I see is that eventually she gets old and lazy :)
That was absolutely amazing. I ordered a snoot loop to try on her and since I was paying shipping I got one sized for my akita. After testing it on the akita so I could understand the adjustments I quickly sized the other one for the shiba and took her out in the yard. There was head throwing, pawing, snorting, and attempts to bolt away (reminded me of haltering few week old foals) but after a few minutes she was walking beside me without too many issues and even turned with me a couple times. So we put it to the real test. I opened the chicken coop door and we walked in. The chickens exploded recognizing Haru as having killed a few and Haru went nuts. She thrashed about whining, jumping, and pitching herself forward and then realized she couldn't pull to get the chickens like she would on her collar irregardless of whether it was choking her or not. The loop also closes her mouth when pulled tight so she couldn't attempt to snap at any chickens. It only took maybe 30 seconds and she sat down next to me. It's the first time I've been able to truly praise Haru and on top of that she didn't bolt up to try again like she normally would as soon as being praised. We left the chicken coop and for the next test worked on sit. She knows sit but she won't do it without physically being put in to it or holding a very yummy food item over her head and waiting while she jumps repeatedly until she lands in a sit and can be praised. I pulled up on the snoot loop so her nose was pointed at the sky and pushed just in front of her tail while repeating our sit command. There was some wiggling to try to avoid it but eventually she sat and got praised. The second try took a few seconds but she sat on her own and I didn't have to touch her. I decided to call it quits there before she got any more frustrated with the snoot loop.
We went inside, took the snoot loop off, released the akita from her crate, and I grabbed 2 dog biscuits. I told them to sit, Haru bounced a little for a second, and then sat down and stayed there so they got their treats. It's the first time I've actually seen the wheels turning in her head instead of just bouncing around and accidentally doing what we wanted. I just expected it would keep her from choking herself at the end of the leash and I'd still have a difficult dog dashing all over. It went completely beyond that and gave her no choice but to pay attention and wait until she's allowed to do something. I think we're going to see when the next set of obedience classes starts and try doing it all in the snoot loop.
Glad you found a helpful tool! I was wondering how things were going.
It reminded me when you mentioned "haltering a foal" that I finally started walking my 3 dogs harmoniously when I envisioned myself leading horses instead of dogs. It gave me this mental image of empowement and serenity, and it's easy to lead around 25-pound critters when you pretend like they're 2000 pounds.